Hybrid running costs calculations
Discussion
Happy with my XC40 T5 plug-in, which does 24 miles on the battery, and manages 45mpg on petrol.
I charge the battery on Octopus Go, 9p a kwh. About 3.5p per mile.
Most of my journeys are done purely on the battery - just clicked over 1000 miles since I last filled the petrol tank.
On longer journeys, I use the "battery hold" function on faster roads, saving the battery for lower speed and town driving.
Really wouldn't make sense to use public charging, and pretty marginal on a standard tariff.
A PHEV suits my usage. A full BEV would work for me too, but the higher purchase price of a similar car means it would cost more to run.
I charge the battery on Octopus Go, 9p a kwh. About 3.5p per mile.
Most of my journeys are done purely on the battery - just clicked over 1000 miles since I last filled the petrol tank.
On longer journeys, I use the "battery hold" function on faster roads, saving the battery for lower speed and town driving.
Really wouldn't make sense to use public charging, and pretty marginal on a standard tariff.
A PHEV suits my usage. A full BEV would work for me too, but the higher purchase price of a similar car means it would cost more to run.
SWoll said:
I'd also suggest it's unlikely an 11 year old hybrid is going to have anything like the battery only range it did when new?
Prolonged charging to 100% and running down to 0% unlike an EV is not good for battery packs, I'd want a state of health before considering a purchase.
Yes, those points crossed my mind, especially that battery life one. The book says 31 miles so I used 25 in my calculations but no idea if that is accurate. Prolonged charging to 100% and running down to 0% unlike an EV is not good for battery packs, I'd want a state of health before considering a purchase.
This guy made me laugh!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3iGC3kZ58T8&ab...
SWoll said:
I'd also suggest it's unlikely an 11 year old hybrid is going to have anything like the battery only range it did when new?
Prolonged charging to 100% and running down to 0% unlike an EV is not good for battery packs, I'd want a state of health before considering a purchase.
Yes and no. There will be some degradation for sure, but the system will be built to cope with it, and the charge rates are significantly lower than say a BEV. Most even have pretty poor charge rates when plugged in too, so I would suspect that the hit to the battery would be lower.Prolonged charging to 100% and running down to 0% unlike an EV is not good for battery packs, I'd want a state of health before considering a purchase.
But a 10% reduction in capacity on a PHEV that does 30 miles on a charge is going to mean it gets 27 miles on a charge. It is impactful, but not as much as a BEV. 10% reduction on a BEV that does 300 miles on a charge is significant.
The first and second models of the Prius got hit pretty hard on battery life with many requiring a replacement. But the chemistry was very different to what it is today anyway.
Type R Tom said:
I currently have a 120-mile commute with town driving on either end. My 2011 V60 T6 averages 31mpg on the journey so I’m using about £27 in fuel or about 23p a mile at £1.50 per l
I’ve seen a 2013 D6 twin engine for sale. This will do around 25 miles with a 12khw battery and about 45mpg on diesel. At home, the battery would cost £3.24 to fill at 27p per KWh and £9.72 at 81p per KWh at its most expensive on the street. The diesel engine will do around 45mpg or about 16p per mile.
Therefore, from home 25 miles at 13p and 35 miles at 16p would make the commute to work cost £8.85
From work 25 miles at 81p (worst case) and 35 miles at 16p would make the commute home £15.32
The total commute to work be £24.17, only around £3 less than what my 3.0 T6 would do.
Or am I missing something or making a huge mistake? Does the cost of using public charging points make plug-in hybrids uneconomical? Does the poor KWh per mile make them uneconomical?
Would the stop-start, 20mph, congestion, etc, mean the reality would be a lot better than I've calculated?
You've missed a few things...I’ve seen a 2013 D6 twin engine for sale. This will do around 25 miles with a 12khw battery and about 45mpg on diesel. At home, the battery would cost £3.24 to fill at 27p per KWh and £9.72 at 81p per KWh at its most expensive on the street. The diesel engine will do around 45mpg or about 16p per mile.
Therefore, from home 25 miles at 13p and 35 miles at 16p would make the commute to work cost £8.85
From work 25 miles at 81p (worst case) and 35 miles at 16p would make the commute home £15.32
The total commute to work be £24.17, only around £3 less than what my 3.0 T6 would do.
Or am I missing something or making a huge mistake? Does the cost of using public charging points make plug-in hybrids uneconomical? Does the poor KWh per mile make them uneconomical?
Would the stop-start, 20mph, congestion, etc, mean the reality would be a lot better than I've calculated?
It won't do 25 miles on the battery in real life. Particularly in the cooler months.
You could "fill" it at home at 7p/kWh rather than 27.
The public charging at 86p/kWh is way more expensive per mile than running on diesel.
Overall not really the best use case for a PHEV either so even if you adjust the figures, it will be cheaper than your current petrol, but nothing groundbreaking.
I think if you saved the battery for use solely in town, you’d be surprised how far it would travel. Using the battery on a PHEV on faster roads or motorways will use up the entire capacity pretty quickly. In stop/start traffic and an element of battery regen as you decelerate or brake, especially in warmer weather, it should give the quoted range or perhaps even better.
As others have said, get a decent overnight electric tariff and charge the battery that way. Don’t even think about charging away from home unless it’s free (or very low cost), as the economics don’t stack up and PHEVs take an age to change.
As others have said, get a decent overnight electric tariff and charge the battery that way. Don’t even think about charging away from home unless it’s free (or very low cost), as the economics don’t stack up and PHEVs take an age to change.
blank said:
Type R Tom said:
I currently have a 120-mile commute with town driving on either end. My 2011 V60 T6 averages 31mpg on the journey so I’m using about £27 in fuel or about 23p a mile at £1.50 per l
I’ve seen a 2013 D6 twin engine for sale. This will do around 25 miles with a 12khw battery and about 45mpg on diesel. At home, the battery would cost £3.24 to fill at 27p per KWh and £9.72 at 81p per KWh at its most expensive on the street. The diesel engine will do around 45mpg or about 16p per mile.
Therefore, from home 25 miles at 13p and 35 miles at 16p would make the commute to work cost £8.85
From work 25 miles at 81p (worst case) and 35 miles at 16p would make the commute home £15.32
The total commute to work be £24.17, only around £3 less than what my 3.0 T6 would do.
Or am I missing something or making a huge mistake? Does the cost of using public charging points make plug-in hybrids uneconomical? Does the poor KWh per mile make them uneconomical?
Would the stop-start, 20mph, congestion, etc, mean the reality would be a lot better than I've calculated?
You've missed a few things...I’ve seen a 2013 D6 twin engine for sale. This will do around 25 miles with a 12khw battery and about 45mpg on diesel. At home, the battery would cost £3.24 to fill at 27p per KWh and £9.72 at 81p per KWh at its most expensive on the street. The diesel engine will do around 45mpg or about 16p per mile.
Therefore, from home 25 miles at 13p and 35 miles at 16p would make the commute to work cost £8.85
From work 25 miles at 81p (worst case) and 35 miles at 16p would make the commute home £15.32
The total commute to work be £24.17, only around £3 less than what my 3.0 T6 would do.
Or am I missing something or making a huge mistake? Does the cost of using public charging points make plug-in hybrids uneconomical? Does the poor KWh per mile make them uneconomical?
Would the stop-start, 20mph, congestion, etc, mean the reality would be a lot better than I've calculated?
It won't do 25 miles on the battery in real life. Particularly in the cooler months.
You could "fill" it at home at 7p/kWh rather than 27.
The public charging at 86p/kWh is way more expensive per mile than running on diesel.
Overall not really the best use case for a PHEV either so even if you adjust the figures, it will be cheaper than your current petrol, but nothing groundbreaking.
I've not looked into different energy rates so thanks for that.
I also do some local journeys, popping to my parents', the supermarket's, my daughter's nursery, the zoo's, etc., all 10-15 mile return trips. The 3.0 T6 for those journeys is rubbish! Part of my thought process was doing them on electricity.
Tractor Driver said:
I think if you saved the battery for use solely in town, you’d be surprised how far it would travel. Using the battery on a PHEV on faster roads or motorways will use up the entire capacity pretty quickly. In stop/start traffic and an element of battery regen as you decelerate or brake, especially in warmer weather, it should give the quoted range or perhaps even better.
As others have said, get a decent overnight electric tariff and charge the battery that way. Don’t even think about charging away from home unless it’s free (or very low cost), as the economics don’t stack up and PHEVs take an age to change.
The average for the D6 engine is 45mpg combined. I'd hope on the motorway at 70mph it would get 55mpg. I would need to manage the electric for city bits.As others have said, get a decent overnight electric tariff and charge the battery that way. Don’t even think about charging away from home unless it’s free (or very low cost), as the economics don’t stack up and PHEVs take an age to change.
SWoll said:
I'd also suggest it's unlikely an 11 year old hybrid is going to have anything like the battery only range it did when new?
Prolonged charging to 100% and running down to 0% unlike an EV is not good for battery packs, I'd want a state of health before considering a purchase.
"Modern" plug-in hybrids don't run the battery down to zero in normal use. They hold some of the battery in reserve for assisting the IC engine when max power is called for, stop/start traffic, etc.Prolonged charging to 100% and running down to 0% unlike an EV is not good for battery packs, I'd want a state of health before considering a purchase.
My XC40 has a 10.8 kwh battery. If I run it purely on the battery, until the range drops to zero, then use the petrol engine to complete the journey, it takes just under 9kwh to recharge it.
That suggests that the minimum charge level before the engine kicks in is around 20%.
SWoll said:
I'd also suggest it's unlikely an 11 year old hybrid is going to have anything like the battery only range it did when new?
Prolonged charging to 100% and running down to 0% unlike an EV is not good for battery packs, I'd want a state of health before considering a purchase.
I had a 7 year old PHEV with 60k miles. It was still returning the exact same range as brand new models. PHEVs typically will have a buffer in their battery pack either end, so you aren't really going from 0% to 100% when charging and discharging. Prolonged charging to 100% and running down to 0% unlike an EV is not good for battery packs, I'd want a state of health before considering a purchase.
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