20tb of SAN Storage?
Discussion
As subject basically. I'm looking to replace our ESX cluster around christmas time, which isn't as far away as it sounds when you need to talk to vendors.
We'll be using ESX and I envisage the storage will be carved up as either VMFS or presented directly to VM's so that I can use the SAN vendors VSS tools for snapshots of things like SQL and Exchange.
At some point, perhaps initially or perhaps not, I'd also like another unit(s) at the other end of our site and to do SAN level replication of all or some volumes.
Right now I'm liking the looks of Equallogic and Lefthand/HP P4000 as the "all licenses included" model is appealing.
Given we're running our core business systems on this solution I'm also keen to try and deal with a single vendor for technical support, and I don't want the SAN vendor blaming the NIC/HBA vendor and them blaming the server vendor and so on - one vendor appeals.
I'd be interested in any views.
We'll be using ESX and I envisage the storage will be carved up as either VMFS or presented directly to VM's so that I can use the SAN vendors VSS tools for snapshots of things like SQL and Exchange.
At some point, perhaps initially or perhaps not, I'd also like another unit(s) at the other end of our site and to do SAN level replication of all or some volumes.
Right now I'm liking the looks of Equallogic and Lefthand/HP P4000 as the "all licenses included" model is appealing.
Given we're running our core business systems on this solution I'm also keen to try and deal with a single vendor for technical support, and I don't want the SAN vendor blaming the NIC/HBA vendor and them blaming the server vendor and so on - one vendor appeals.
I'd be interested in any views.
I'm not really up to speed on latest SAN offerings but if you're looking to hp for servers and want single vendor support I would have thought the base model EVA is worth a look at. I've worked with a few of these in replicated ESX scenarios and they have always worked well.
There are always good deals to be had on the server range as well if you're looking to renew your hosts. I've just started replacing some g5's with g7's and they quite remarkable, generally running at between a third and a half of the power consumption.
There are always good deals to be had on the server range as well if you're looking to renew your hosts. I've just started replacing some g5's with g7's and they quite remarkable, generally running at between a third and a half of the power consumption.
Thanks for the reply. I've not looked at the EVA's in too much depth but I'm under the impression that everything they do is licensed? For example I had a quick look and it seems if you want to replicate between arrays it's a £5k license option?
I'm not suggesting that means it's out of budget, but part of me is nervous about buying into any system where you might want to do something down the line but find the license is prohibitively expensive or you haven't budgeted for it so can't do it etc.
I'm not suggesting that means it's out of budget, but part of me is nervous about buying into any system where you might want to do something down the line but find the license is prohibitively expensive or you haven't budgeted for it so can't do it etc.
bodhi said:
Take a look at IBM's VDS Storage line, similar functionality to LeftHand, lower price.
Thanks, not seen that product before.Looks interesting in that it seems you can add shelves and disks as and when you see fit rather than the EQL/LeftHand approach of buying a fully populated brick.
I don't know if it's me but I do find IBM's website absolutely shocking at telling you what their products actually do.
We run a 30TB EVA 6220. You're right that there are licensing issues. We have an unlimited capacity license, but replication/snapshotting is extra.
I would steer you very strongly towards HP, based on our support experience. We have HP everything, Servers, HBA (rebranded qlogic), switches (rebranded brocade) and SAN. We have a 24/7 4 hour response contract and it is far and away the best support I've dealt with on any product.
As for tech, the EVA seems to be lagging behind a bit compared to the competition and I find it's "Active/Active but-not-quite" controllers frustrating at times. ESX4 has mitigaed this somewhat with better multipathing support but there are still occasional performance issues because of it. The admin interface is clunky and there's next to no reporting capability. I'm not up on the capabilities of the Lefthand kit though, so it could have similar problems.
I've found there to be a big price difference between HP resellers though. This may be because we qualify for educational discount, not sure. Logicalis are consistently the cheapest.
I would steer you very strongly towards HP, based on our support experience. We have HP everything, Servers, HBA (rebranded qlogic), switches (rebranded brocade) and SAN. We have a 24/7 4 hour response contract and it is far and away the best support I've dealt with on any product.
As for tech, the EVA seems to be lagging behind a bit compared to the competition and I find it's "Active/Active but-not-quite" controllers frustrating at times. ESX4 has mitigaed this somewhat with better multipathing support but there are still occasional performance issues because of it. The admin interface is clunky and there's next to no reporting capability. I'm not up on the capabilities of the Lefthand kit though, so it could have similar problems.
I've found there to be a big price difference between HP resellers though. This may be because we qualify for educational discount, not sure. Logicalis are consistently the cheapest.
theboss said:
I've just started replacing some g5's with g7's and they quite remarkable, generally running at between a third and a half of the power consumption.
Yes. I went to a pre-release demo at HP for the G7 range and it does look very good. THere's lots of stuff in there that's really obvious in a "why didn't you do this 5 years ago" way, like running one of the two power supplies flat out as it's more efficient than two running at 50%. Their new common format PSU is also blindingly obvious, but nobody does it.I'm looking at a whole bunch of vendors for our ESX refresh (currently 380G5s) next month but I have a feeling it's just due diligence and I'll be buying a van load of DL380 G7s.
And yes, IBM's website is terrible.
Edited by agent006 on Saturday 17th July 23:16
Ex HP consultant here - If you want it all from one vendor I'd recommend them, they have some very good storage guys working for them too. EVA's or if you're doing it in a big mission critical way XPs.
Oh and can put you in touch with a mate if mine from HP who does sales for data center kit, he's also from a storage background so might be perfect for a chat - let me know if interested.
Oh and can put you in touch with a mate if mine from HP who does sales for data center kit, he's also from a storage background so might be perfect for a chat - let me know if interested.
Edited by starmonkey on Saturday 17th July 23:47
From what I'm seeing so far, HP and Dell are still coming out as the best option.
I have 16tb of Equallogic already, though I've not yet done more than play with it, it was purchased for a project that never quite happened (yet).
With Lefthand I did try their VSA and was very impressed, not that I'd run a VSA in full production, but it's the exact same software/interface.
The only thing that confuses the hell out of me with the Lefthand is working out the usable capacity once you factor in network RAID and the hardware RAID per "brick".
The EVA just looks like it'll work out way too expensive even going off rough pricing available from Google Shops - I'd like to be able to do site to site replication and they seem to want around £13k just for an unlimited replication license.
As much as part of me like the look of vendors like Netapp and Compellent, partly licensing, and partly the fact it's adding vendors puts me off.
I have 16tb of Equallogic already, though I've not yet done more than play with it, it was purchased for a project that never quite happened (yet).
With Lefthand I did try their VSA and was very impressed, not that I'd run a VSA in full production, but it's the exact same software/interface.
The only thing that confuses the hell out of me with the Lefthand is working out the usable capacity once you factor in network RAID and the hardware RAID per "brick".
The EVA just looks like it'll work out way too expensive even going off rough pricing available from Google Shops - I'd like to be able to do site to site replication and they seem to want around £13k just for an unlimited replication license.
As much as part of me like the look of vendors like Netapp and Compellent, partly licensing, and partly the fact it's adding vendors puts me off.
How about NexentaStor running on some HP kit? You could probably spec a HA 20tb system for less than you would think.
[quote=paddyhasneeds]From what I'm seeing so far, HP and Dell are still coming out as the best option.
Dell is just rebranded EMC.
Don't let google put you of EVAs.
Just be clear in what you want now and in the future,there are unlimited licence models with EVA, but the cost ery much depends on waht you want now and later.
With out this clarity one provider can seem very cheap under one usage model and really expensive in reality.....
Dell is just rebranded EMC.
Don't let google put you of EVAs.
Just be clear in what you want now and in the future,there are unlimited licence models with EVA, but the cost ery much depends on waht you want now and later.
With out this clarity one provider can seem very cheap under one usage model and really expensive in reality.....
lestag said:
paddyhasneeds said:
From what I'm seeing so far, HP and Dell are still coming out as the best option.
Dell is just rebranded EMC.Don't let google put you of EVAs.
Just be clear in what you want now and in the future,there are unlimited licence models with EVA, but the cost ery much depends on waht you want now and later.
With out this clarity one provider can seem very cheap under one usage model and really expensive in reality.....
I'll do some digging into the EVA range, though I have to say having looked at and priced up a P4000 it looks pretty reasonable - I did like the P4000 when I trialled the VSA appliance.
The problem was trying to find someone within HP who actually knew enough about the P4000 (as it was still a relatively new acquisition), because they knew the EVA they were trying to steer me that way but couldn't tell me what the P4000 wouldn't do to make them steer me that way.
Edited by paddyhasneeds on Sunday 18th July 10:39
Roy the Boy said:
We're having a Netapp system installed in 2 weeks as part of a server virtualisation project. I was extremely impressed from attending one of their seminars as was my boss. Expensive compared to others but they got our vote.
Yes every time I look at their kit I think "That looks neat", the de-dupe may be useful and I keep hearing about how NFS for ESX is really good.My concerns are that it's another vendor in the equation, and that one thing I keep hearing about Netapp (and others to be fair) is that they'll drop their pants to get a foot in the door, then six months later when you need something they'll hitch them up again and you're faced with "list".
RoadRailer said:
How about NexentaStor running on some HP kit? You could probably spec a HA 20tb system for less than you would think.
A bit too home brew. Don't get me wrong I'm all for open source, and I know you can get support contracts but I'd prefer a "one stop shop" solution so far as support/accountability.lestag said:
paddyhasneeds said:
From what I'm seeing so far, HP and Dell are still coming out as the best option.
Dell is just rebranded EMC.
Don't let google put you of EVAs.
Just be clear in what you want now and in the future,there are unlimited licence models with EVA, but the cost ery much depends on waht you want now and later.
With out this clarity one provider can seem very cheap under one usage model and really expensive in reality.....
Exactly, I get the impression a lot of vendors, not just HP, have similarly 'hidden' costs around licensing options or extending support.Dell is just rebranded EMC.
Don't let google put you of EVAs.
Just be clear in what you want now and in the future,there are unlimited licence models with EVA, but the cost ery much depends on waht you want now and later.
With out this clarity one provider can seem very cheap under one usage model and really expensive in reality.....
When installing EVAs in the past the reseller would often approach HP for a 'special bid' if the customer were buying quite a lot of kit, for example several several EVAs for a DR project, or perhaps a load of servers at the same time. The discount they used to get on the whole bundle was often considerable. So don't always take the headline costs as absolute.
[quote=paddyhasneeds]
With Dell I had Equallogic in mind, not the CX kit.
I'll do some digging into the EVA range, though I have to say having looked at and priced up a P4000 it looks pretty reasonable - I did like the P4000 when I trialled the VSA appliance.
The problem was trying to find someone within HP who actually knew enough about the P4000 (as it was still a relatively new acquisition), because they knew the EVA they were trying to steer me that way but couldn't tell me what the P4000 wouldn't do to make them steer me that way.
/quote]
Geeze look what happens when i turn my back for year on SAN.. didn't know about the lefthand stuff..
IIRC check the warranties when you add stuff after the initial purchase (i think this was EMC specific) i.e. adding another shelf in year 2 meant you could only get support for 2 years
With Dell I had Equallogic in mind, not the CX kit.
I'll do some digging into the EVA range, though I have to say having looked at and priced up a P4000 it looks pretty reasonable - I did like the P4000 when I trialled the VSA appliance.
The problem was trying to find someone within HP who actually knew enough about the P4000 (as it was still a relatively new acquisition), because they knew the EVA they were trying to steer me that way but couldn't tell me what the P4000 wouldn't do to make them steer me that way.
/quote]
Geeze look what happens when i turn my back for year on SAN.. didn't know about the lefthand stuff..
IIRC check the warranties when you add stuff after the initial purchase (i think this was EMC specific) i.e. adding another shelf in year 2 meant you could only get support for 2 years
lestag said:
Geeze look what happens when i turn my back for year on SAN.. didn't know about the lefthand stuff..
It's interesting kit. They also offer the software for ESX so if you have a remote site (like we do) where you can't justify a hardware SAN, you can virtualize the storage on a commodity server but integrate it with your main SAN, so for example we could run a P4000 on ESX on a Proliant and replicate back to main site.paddyhasneeds said:
lestag said:
Geeze look what happens when i turn my back for year on SAN.. didn't know about the lefthand stuff..
It's interesting kit. They also offer the software for ESX so if you have a remote site (like we do) where you can't justify a hardware SAN, you can virtualize the storage on a commodity server but integrate it with your main SAN, so for example we could run a P4000 on ESX on a Proliant and replicate back to main site.Gassing Station | Computers, Gadgets & Stuff | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff