Daimler Dart SP250 brake upgrade?
Discussion
I am fortunate enough to have a Daimler Dart which, by all accounts, is a fantastic classic car. The engine in particular, the 2.5 V8, is a real peach.
However, despite having disc brakes all round, the brakes are pretty terrifying and I would really like to improve these.
The discs should be fine, as should the pads, so I am considering some braided hoses as a start. However, I imagine the real cause for concern is in the master cylinder/servo area. Are they even servo assisted?
Are the SP250 components shared with any other manufacturer/model (e.g Triumph's TR6, or a Jaguar of similar era perhaps)?
I know they used to race these, and the Police used them too, so the brakes must be able to be improved, just not sure how!
Suggestions welcome
However, despite having disc brakes all round, the brakes are pretty terrifying and I would really like to improve these.
The discs should be fine, as should the pads, so I am considering some braided hoses as a start. However, I imagine the real cause for concern is in the master cylinder/servo area. Are they even servo assisted?
Are the SP250 components shared with any other manufacturer/model (e.g Triumph's TR6, or a Jaguar of similar era perhaps)?
I know they used to race these, and the Police used them too, so the brakes must be able to be improved, just not sure how!
Suggestions welcome
I have an SP also and the brakes are pretty good to be honest.im not too hot on technical issues but you might find he expertise you need on the daimler and lanchester centre. There's some technical gurus to be found there.
On a separate note is your car registered with pasSPort which is a register of known surviving SPs.
On a separate note is your car registered with pasSPort which is a register of known surviving SPs.
with respect if you don't know if it's got a servo then you probably know little about brakes - search for a photo of a servo then lift the bonnet and you'll see if it's there (unless you were joking)
you need to know as if it's faulty it could cause problems for your car
every time you lift the bonnet your first thought should be brakes, so regularly look at the brake reservoir to check the level of the brake fluid, its colour and whether it's contaminated
things that effect the efficiency of braking:
you need to know as if it's faulty it could cause problems for your car
every time you lift the bonnet your first thought should be brakes, so regularly look at the brake reservoir to check the level of the brake fluid, its colour and whether it's contaminated
things that effect the efficiency of braking:
- the brake fluid should be flushed out and changed every two years, this is very often neglect for many years
- lack of use and age can make the pads 'go hard'
- flexi-pipes deteriorated, collapsing (swapping like for like will give improvement too)
- lack of use and age can make the tyres 'go hard' (regardless of tread depth) - (see half way down page) http://www.carbibles.com/tyre_bible.html
- lower specification or quality of tyres
- tyres widely over or under inflated
- driver not driving the car frequently enough to be used to the car or keep the car running in good running condition
Edited by nta16 on Thursday 9th May 14:13
If you really can't live with it I'd be happy to give it a loving home...
In good fettle the brakes on an SP250 should be up to the job and considerably better than many contemporaries. When you say they are rubbish do you mean in comparison to a modern? If so, true, you have to learn to live with it and drive accordingly.
I can't remember these having servo assistance but aftermarket kits are available. However, a servo does not actually improve the braking, rather just lessens the amount of effort needed to apply the brakes fully (if that makes sense) - the absolute braking limits will still be the same.
It's possible that pads may have gone hard and brittle, discs glazed, etc. and if the hoses are old they will expand/balloon which lessens the pressure that goes to operating the brakes.
Depending on whether it has been sat and how it has been treated it may well be worth overhauling the whole brake system (even the fluid deteriorates and absorbs water)- it would be well worth it as the SP is a nice (and valuable) car and capable of decent performance.
In good fettle the brakes on an SP250 should be up to the job and considerably better than many contemporaries. When you say they are rubbish do you mean in comparison to a modern? If so, true, you have to learn to live with it and drive accordingly.
I can't remember these having servo assistance but aftermarket kits are available. However, a servo does not actually improve the braking, rather just lessens the amount of effort needed to apply the brakes fully (if that makes sense) - the absolute braking limits will still be the same.
It's possible that pads may have gone hard and brittle, discs glazed, etc. and if the hoses are old they will expand/balloon which lessens the pressure that goes to operating the brakes.
Depending on whether it has been sat and how it has been treated it may well be worth overhauling the whole brake system (even the fluid deteriorates and absorbs water)- it would be well worth it as the SP is a nice (and valuable) car and capable of decent performance.
Dart braking ability varies from car to car but is generally ver good
The brass 5 way union can corrode quite badly, failure in not fun
It is possible to lock up the rear wheels under heavy braking due to weight transfer.
Sometimes servos are fitted out of sight on the right hand side, under the id plate.
The hand brake pads are common to the Gordon keeble & DB4 Zagato.
All Dart related knowledgeand more can be found on the DLOC forum.
how fast are you planning on going anyway
OK, I've had a look back and the car was fitted with a new servo earlier this year and the discs are fairly new, as are the pads.
I don't intend to go racing, but I just feel for the speed the car is capable over the brakes are a little...inadequate. Of course, the servo will not improve the braking performance, just lessen the effort required - is there anything else that can be done to improve them slightly? It would be good to compare them to another Dart, but as you will all know they're not exactly commonplace!
peteryoung - not sure, it could be on there! How can I find out?
nta16 - I know a reasonable amount about brakes, but I am only just learning about the car!
spoodler - thanks for the offer, but I'm happy to keep hold of it! The car is in VGC, and being so light I would expect the brakes to be 'good' by classic standards and 'acceptable' by modern standards, at the moment I feel they're a bit below this.
dartissimus - I will have a look at the union, but hopefully this would have been inspected (and replaced if necessary) when the servo was done. Not planning on going that fast, but do plan on going touring and definitely want some good brakes when heading down an alpine pass!
All - feel free to post some pics of your Dart's, always interested to see other peoples' cars! Anyone on here in the south east?
Lastly, I would also like to improve the headlights whilst retaining the existing glass lenses. Uprated bulbs would be one route, but would this be too much for the wiring? Are more modern lamp bowls/reflectors available to improve the light distribution?
Cheers,
Mike
I don't intend to go racing, but I just feel for the speed the car is capable over the brakes are a little...inadequate. Of course, the servo will not improve the braking performance, just lessen the effort required - is there anything else that can be done to improve them slightly? It would be good to compare them to another Dart, but as you will all know they're not exactly commonplace!
peteryoung - not sure, it could be on there! How can I find out?
nta16 - I know a reasonable amount about brakes, but I am only just learning about the car!
spoodler - thanks for the offer, but I'm happy to keep hold of it! The car is in VGC, and being so light I would expect the brakes to be 'good' by classic standards and 'acceptable' by modern standards, at the moment I feel they're a bit below this.
dartissimus - I will have a look at the union, but hopefully this would have been inspected (and replaced if necessary) when the servo was done. Not planning on going that fast, but do plan on going touring and definitely want some good brakes when heading down an alpine pass!
All - feel free to post some pics of your Dart's, always interested to see other peoples' cars! Anyone on here in the south east?
Lastly, I would also like to improve the headlights whilst retaining the existing glass lenses. Uprated bulbs would be one route, but would this be too much for the wiring? Are more modern lamp bowls/reflectors available to improve the light distribution?
Cheers,
Mike
My 2p worth.
Coopercraft will supply you with new 4 pot callipers and vented discs for around £650. Best answer - old Jag/Daimler Dunlop brakes aren't all that despite what many might say. You probably won't need a servo with those either.
Headlights. Upgrade to an alternator, or one of the alternators that look like a dynamo. That will maintain a better voltage for everything. Good earthing from the headlight units is essential too. If your bulbs are BPF, which I suspect they are, you can get a halogen replacement.
Coopercraft will supply you with new 4 pot callipers and vented discs for around £650. Best answer - old Jag/Daimler Dunlop brakes aren't all that despite what many might say. You probably won't need a servo with those either.
Headlights. Upgrade to an alternator, or one of the alternators that look like a dynamo. That will maintain a better voltage for everything. Good earthing from the headlight units is essential too. If your bulbs are BPF, which I suspect they are, you can get a halogen replacement.
http://www.dlcentre.com/forum/
Is the link to the forum where you will find the guys with the knowledge. One guy dragon by name produces guides to upgrades and the like, and another russ carpenter knows all there is to know about the dart especially the engine.
I have to say I've owned mine 20 odd years and never felt the brakes underpowered, so I suspect you may have an issue with your system. Alternatively I find braking power poor after new pads have been fitted until they have a good warm up.
Not sure how to upload photos here.
If you want to send me an e mail with your reg number or chassis number ill let you know if its in pasSPort and if not give you the contact details for he compilers.
Your dart should be a joy to drive and should be quite a at home in modern traffic.
Is the link to the forum where you will find the guys with the knowledge. One guy dragon by name produces guides to upgrades and the like, and another russ carpenter knows all there is to know about the dart especially the engine.
I have to say I've owned mine 20 odd years and never felt the brakes underpowered, so I suspect you may have an issue with your system. Alternatively I find braking power poor after new pads have been fitted until they have a good warm up.
Not sure how to upload photos here.
If you want to send me an e mail with your reg number or chassis number ill let you know if its in pasSPort and if not give you the contact details for he compilers.
Your dart should be a joy to drive and should be quite a at home in modern traffic.
sorry Mike but you did put that you didn't know if it had a servo which for a car you own did suggest this, (normally I'd have put 'might') and you did start with the discs and pads should be fine and changing to braided hoses (which would be more, like the servo, about improving pedal feel as just changing warn hoses for like would improve braking)
the list I put is still valid (forgot glazed discs though) especially the often forgotten fluid, tyres and lack of use
the list I put is still valid (forgot glazed discs though) especially the often forgotten fluid, tyres and lack of use
The brakes on mine are fine. While you're checking the 5-way union, I think there is also a 3-way for the back brakes. Scratch them with something sharp, if they show silver they're aluminium alloy and need changing to brass.
It's nice to see so many SP's on here.
While your're at it, check the rubber fuel hoses. There's a hose between the carbs and some on the fuel pump in the boot. They tend to get overlooked and if very old may be affected by modern fuels. And carry a fire extinguisher.
It's nice to see so many SP's on here.
While your're at it, check the rubber fuel hoses. There's a hose between the carbs and some on the fuel pump in the boot. They tend to get overlooked and if very old may be affected by modern fuels. And carry a fire extinguisher.
Edited by rovermorris999 on Thursday 9th May 19:51
In 1959 4 wheel discs were cutting edge,
But if you really have to upgrade the brakes, dual circuit is the obvious one, braided hoses maybe, servo - depends on the car; upgrading the discs - never heard of it being done.
My Pal whose axle seized, swears that the TR4 axle he put in, with rear drums is better.
Popular upgrades are : Rack & Pinion steering (Triumph) and telescopic rear shockers, things like Sierra gearboxes are not unknown, but hey, why not buy a new car instead or fit a diesel engine...........
But if you really have to upgrade the brakes, dual circuit is the obvious one, braided hoses maybe, servo - depends on the car; upgrading the discs - never heard of it being done.
My Pal whose axle seized, swears that the TR4 axle he put in, with rear drums is better.
Popular upgrades are : Rack & Pinion steering (Triumph) and telescopic rear shockers, things like Sierra gearboxes are not unknown, but hey, why not buy a new car instead or fit a diesel engine...........
dartissimus said:
Popular upgrades are : Rack & Pinion steering (Triumph) and telescopic rear shockers, things like Sierra gearboxes are not unknown, but hey, why not buy a new car instead or fit a diesel engine...........
Indeed. I can't really see the point on buying a 50's designed car and then making it feel like a more modern one. Enjoy hairy-chested motoring and the period feel!rovermorris999 said:
Indeed. I can't really see the point on buying a 50's designed car and then making it feel like a more modern one. Enjoy hairy-chested motoring and the period feel!
I know I am a wuss, but the prospect of being pierced through the sternum by the steering column if I drove over a pothole at high speed has made me opt for a rack and pinion upgrade 
if only to protect the hairs on my chest 
Mike, there's a pile of good things that can transform the SP's brakes. First, they're all quite similar to the MKII Jaguar/V8 250 brakes. I've completed the following many times and it always works, pulling the car up very effectively and inspiring much more confidence.
1. Complete rebuild of calipers - break apart, clean up, repaint, re-asembly, and new seals.
2. Replace any/all old pipelines with cupro-nickel brake lines.
3. Replace the flexibles with stainless steel braided units - readily available off the shelf from Goodridge.
4. Use DOT5.1 brake fluid - not synthetic or DOT4.
5. Lastly, update brake pad material to Mintex1144 or EBC Greenstuff; both of these work very well on 250's without being too harsh or not working from cold.
The other option you have is to talk with Coopercraft in Devon http://www.coopercraft.co.uk/ Although they don't list SP250's the V8250 units may either fit directly, or, will work with an adaptor plate.
Also, the suspension joints play a big part in the SP's stopping power. If your joints/rubbers are a little tired it would be worth upgrading these to units that have a slightly firmer Shore Rating.
Have a chat with Superflex http://www.superflex.co.uk/products.php?cat=110
1. Complete rebuild of calipers - break apart, clean up, repaint, re-asembly, and new seals.
2. Replace any/all old pipelines with cupro-nickel brake lines.
3. Replace the flexibles with stainless steel braided units - readily available off the shelf from Goodridge.
4. Use DOT5.1 brake fluid - not synthetic or DOT4.
5. Lastly, update brake pad material to Mintex1144 or EBC Greenstuff; both of these work very well on 250's without being too harsh or not working from cold.
The other option you have is to talk with Coopercraft in Devon http://www.coopercraft.co.uk/ Although they don't list SP250's the V8250 units may either fit directly, or, will work with an adaptor plate.
Also, the suspension joints play a big part in the SP's stopping power. If your joints/rubbers are a little tired it would be worth upgrading these to units that have a slightly firmer Shore Rating.
Have a chat with Superflex http://www.superflex.co.uk/products.php?cat=110
Just a word to warn against doing handbrake turns in a SP 250. I competed in one on the 1991 Pirelli Marathon and on a test in Belgium, we used the handbrake to get the back round on one of the hairpins, this had the effect of wrapping all the rear brake lines round the axle and left us with zero braking which became very interesting on the next down hill section! Fortunately a local resident had left his front gate open so we were able to use his courtyard as an escape road. Two hours later we had restored braking to the front only but we were out of time and had to retire.
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