When you`re glad to be out of it all.....
Discussion
Henry, two things that need pointing out.
1. The Paragon car went into the kitty litter efectively annulling the huge advantage the daft safety car debacle had given it and the penalty handed to it was for a refuelling transgression.
2. Ben Clucas (in particular) drove the winning car beautifully and deserved the win....
Tha Sumpter / Slater RSR combo is awesome, but it was nice to hear Mark in the interview post race accept blame for pitching the car off...
1. The Paragon car went into the kitty litter efectively annulling the huge advantage the daft safety car debacle had given it and the penalty handed to it was for a refuelling transgression.
2. Ben Clucas (in particular) drove the winning car beautifully and deserved the win....
Tha Sumpter / Slater RSR combo is awesome, but it was nice to hear Mark in the interview post race accept blame for pitching the car off...
Edited by phatgixer on Sunday 4th October 19:35
Mark is a very honourable and gracious chap. He held his hands up fully re: slinging the car into the gravel.
I just get the feeling nothing changes and that`s a shame.
I am in no way putting down the skill of the drivers or the teams behind any of the other cars and not implying they were any less deserving of victory. Merely that a battle of epic proportions and a result that would have graced the covers of any publication was rendered useless through penalties that are often not necessarily of the team`s making as I know from my own experience.
I know the team took advantage of re-fuelling under the safety car having first cleared it with officials and that advantage should never have been one to take. There is a way to word a championship`s regulations regarding safety cars to avoid this.
But come on, when have safety cars / picking up the leader / releasing from the pit lane ever been implemented properly in Britcar ? I remember sitting there watching the chain pass at Silverstone then waiting for it to pass again before we were finally released a lap later.
Which surprises me because I don`t recall any previous problems with safety cars / pit lane release whilst racing in Britcar.
If you want to attract people to turn up and play in such a financially high stake arena you`ve got to ensure your house is totally in order. Especially when there are other equally well organised and policed events which still retain an air of casual friendliness. In fact I think the better written and policed the rules the more friendly it becomes because you don`t resent anyone on the grid. If I felt a race series or championship had deep rooted institutional errors I would imagine I`d vote with my feet and go racing elsewhere.
Once again please do not take my post as being derogatory to any of the other teams, it most certainly was not and looking through the results there were a number of instances where a well oiled machine resulted in some stellar results of which people must be justifiably proud.
Henry
I just get the feeling nothing changes and that`s a shame.
I am in no way putting down the skill of the drivers or the teams behind any of the other cars and not implying they were any less deserving of victory. Merely that a battle of epic proportions and a result that would have graced the covers of any publication was rendered useless through penalties that are often not necessarily of the team`s making as I know from my own experience.
I know the team took advantage of re-fuelling under the safety car having first cleared it with officials and that advantage should never have been one to take. There is a way to word a championship`s regulations regarding safety cars to avoid this.
Which surprises me because I don`t recall any previous problems with safety cars / pit lane release whilst racing in Britcar.
If you want to attract people to turn up and play in such a financially high stake arena you`ve got to ensure your house is totally in order. Especially when there are other equally well organised and policed events which still retain an air of casual friendliness. In fact I think the better written and policed the rules the more friendly it becomes because you don`t resent anyone on the grid. If I felt a race series or championship had deep rooted institutional errors I would imagine I`d vote with my feet and go racing elsewhere.
Once again please do not take my post as being derogatory to any of the other teams, it most certainly was not and looking through the results there were a number of instances where a well oiled machine resulted in some stellar results of which people must be justifiably proud.
Henry
Edited by Henry-F on Monday 5th October 00:21
Henry-F said:
I just don`t think you can expect people to turn up and play in such a financially high stake arena unless you`ve got your house totally in order. Not when there are other, better organised and policed events which still retain an air of casual friendliness, in fact more so because you don`t resent anyone on the grid. A few teething problems in the first year I can accept but deep rooted institutional errors I can not, and hence I voted with my feet.
As you've voted with your feet then what happens in Britcar isn't anything to do with you anymore is it?As far as I can see the only reason you started this thread is to stir the pot again.
Keep Smiling
Paul Dishman said:
Henry-F said:
I just don`t think you can expect people to turn up and play in such a financially high stake arena unless you`ve got your house totally in order. Not when there are other, better organised and policed events which still retain an air of casual friendliness, in fact more so because you don`t resent anyone on the grid. A few teething problems in the first year I can accept but deep rooted institutional errors I can not, and hence I voted with my feet.
As you've voted with your feet then what happens in Britcar isn't anything to do with you anymore is it?As far as I can see the only reason you started this thread is to stir the pot again.
Keep Smiling
Edited by blackiepaul on Monday 5th October 08:54
I look on as someone who spent a lot of time racing in Britcar and who knows, might again one day.
Not being involved any more means I have no particular axe to grind nor personal advantage to negotiate. If my words spark healthy debate then that's great and my motive for writing them. I wrote what I felt from my heart. Do or did others feel the same? I really don't know.
I am happy this is a quiet enough corner of the Internet to discuss things on without doing any undue harm. Besides I'm hardly someone who people look to or seek advice from before embarking on a seasons racing. Just a bloke who drives an old racing car. It is not part of a one man crusade. Maybe you're right and I have no right to post on here. I shall remove my post and leave you all alone.
All the best.
Henry
Not being involved any more means I have no particular axe to grind nor personal advantage to negotiate. If my words spark healthy debate then that's great and my motive for writing them. I wrote what I felt from my heart. Do or did others feel the same? I really don't know.
I am happy this is a quiet enough corner of the Internet to discuss things on without doing any undue harm. Besides I'm hardly someone who people look to or seek advice from before embarking on a seasons racing. Just a bloke who drives an old racing car. It is not part of a one man crusade. Maybe you're right and I have no right to post on here. I shall remove my post and leave you all alone.
All the best.
Henry
blackiepaul said:
Paul Dishman said:
Henry-F said:
I just don`t think you can expect people to turn up and play in such a financially high stake arena unless you`ve got your house totally in order. Not when there are other, better organised and policed events which still retain an air of casual friendliness, in fact more so because you don`t resent anyone on the grid. A few teething problems in the first year I can accept but deep rooted institutional errors I can not, and hence I voted with my feet.
As you've voted with your feet then what happens in Britcar isn't anything to do with you anymore is it?As far as I can see the only reason you started this thread is to stir the pot again.
Keep Smiling
Never getting the opportunity to watch any of the racing (too busy working behind the scenes) I was told after the race by our Championship Clerk that the penalty was applied for the pitstop following the off were the car came in for a check. I have 3rd hand information that the team stated they were too focused on sorting the car out and mistimed the stop so the car was released 11 seconds too early (which was quite similar to the time differance between the cars on the road when they finished the race as well I believe so it could be argued this was a contributary factor in them being able to catch the mosler?)
All the other pitstops by Paragon were EXACTLY the right time, an indicator of a well organised and professional organisation, however on this occasion they admitted they made a mistake.
The penalty for short pitting is purposefully harsh for obvious reasons. Unfortunately Paragon made a mistake and they suffered the penalty because of it.
Henry, are you suggesting we ignore the rules you have stated you want the championship to adhere to rigorously just so we could see a close finish? I don't really understand your point, do you want us to follow the rules or not? If at any time you wanted to come back to a proper endurance racing championship you will see that our rules are getting tighter and are better written year on year so the racing is improving as a result, wasn't the top cars in each class at Spa and SNett all on the same laps after 3 or 4 hours of racing respectively? Weren't they all differant makes and models contesting those class wins? I distinctly remember a fantastic scrap at Snett last month were the 2 Hawthorns cars and the Topcats Mosler were still all covered by about 1 sec 90mins into the race and they had been nose to tail the whole time.
WRT the Calum incident, further to the comments on this site, especially from Woody, the safety car drivers are operating on instructions from race control as to how many cars to wave by. It's got to be hard to identify a car as it comes up to be waved past or not when all you can see of it are blinding headlights. But further to that point the safety car team, as event officials, have stated they didn't knowingly wave Calum past and that is the only info the Clerk would have to go on when deciding if a penatly was to be applied.
All the other pitstops by Paragon were EXACTLY the right time, an indicator of a well organised and professional organisation, however on this occasion they admitted they made a mistake.
The penalty for short pitting is purposefully harsh for obvious reasons. Unfortunately Paragon made a mistake and they suffered the penalty because of it.
Henry, are you suggesting we ignore the rules you have stated you want the championship to adhere to rigorously just so we could see a close finish? I don't really understand your point, do you want us to follow the rules or not? If at any time you wanted to come back to a proper endurance racing championship you will see that our rules are getting tighter and are better written year on year so the racing is improving as a result, wasn't the top cars in each class at Spa and SNett all on the same laps after 3 or 4 hours of racing respectively? Weren't they all differant makes and models contesting those class wins? I distinctly remember a fantastic scrap at Snett last month were the 2 Hawthorns cars and the Topcats Mosler were still all covered by about 1 sec 90mins into the race and they had been nose to tail the whole time.
WRT the Calum incident, further to the comments on this site, especially from Woody, the safety car drivers are operating on instructions from race control as to how many cars to wave by. It's got to be hard to identify a car as it comes up to be waved past or not when all you can see of it are blinding headlights. But further to that point the safety car team, as event officials, have stated they didn't knowingly wave Calum past and that is the only info the Clerk would have to go on when deciding if a penatly was to be applied.
It should be 90 seconds if refuelling and as fast as possible if you're not. Shorty and I both raised this at the start of the year - it's crazy to thing that you can come in with a puncture and still have to sit there for an age until being released, effectively being penalised twice.
Which then doubles, if not triples the time it takes to check the 'mandatory' stops and adds another level where mistakes can creep in (how does the timekeeper know if the stop hes looking at on the pit stop report is amandatory stop or a puncture?). We then end up with no one knowing who won the race until an hour or so after when all the penalties have been applied and protests heard like in 07 and 08. This system is the easier and more reliable system to operate from the clerks point of view so in 99% of cases whoever crosses the line first on the timing screen is the winner and we can all go home at a reasonable hour.
But how does the time keeper know that when he's sat in the race control office lookign at a pitstop report which lists the length of a pitstop for each pit visit during a race? All he has to go on is the car number and the length of the pitstop. The in loop and out loop on a track aren't sophisticated enough to know what the team has done to a car during a pitstop only how long it took from entering to exiting the pits.
the report is produced every hour and the clerk and time keepers have to look at in excess of 60 pitstops to see if they've done a short stop or not. If you then have to cross reference each stop with trying to work out if it was a fuel stop or to rplace a puncture or if they put a splash of fuel in when they replsaced the puncture it becomes an almost impossible task.
the report is produced every hour and the clerk and time keepers have to look at in excess of 60 pitstops to see if they've done a short stop or not. If you then have to cross reference each stop with trying to work out if it was a fuel stop or to rplace a puncture or if they put a splash of fuel in when they replsaced the puncture it becomes an almost impossible task.
Ahonen said:
It should be 90 seconds if refuelling and as fast as possible if you're not. Shorty and I both raised this at the start of the year - it's crazy to thing that you can come in with a puncture and still have to sit there for an age until being released, effectively being penalised twice.
Which were exactly my thoughts.If you choose to introduce minimum pit stop times then you have to distinguish between re-fuelling and non re-fuelling stops. There are a number of simple ways to do this.
I don't feel any desire to return to Britcar just yet but thank you for the kind invitation. I'm not convinced the institutional problems have been resolved.
I wish Britcar all the best for the future though.
Henry
dhmotorsport said:
Henry-F said:
If you choose to introduce minimum pit stop times then you have to distinguish between re-fuelling and non re-fuelling stops. There are a number of simple ways to do this.
Henry
Such as?Henry
I would also specify a static time in the pits rather than a pit entry to exit time as my minimum times. In fairness I`d be a little crafty as a race organiser and actually still use pit entry to exit times but in the following way: I would carry out my own run through the pits without stopping at the maximum allowed speed and time that on the loops. Add that time to the static times required and that would be the minimum time shown on the timing screen that I`d be looking for. There would be a bit of a margin for error in there as in reality teams have to slow down, stop and re-start again so if someone broke the times they really were under, not just by a second or two. Either that or they were speeding in the pit lane.
My issue was always that you`be be penalised massively for a 1 or 2 second error in the pit lane on a measurement that was really hard to take accurately as a team without access to the timing loop information, but then let off unchecked for massive infringements in other areas such as performance advantage.I`m sure all that`s changed now and things are much better.
Henry
So 1 extra member of staff to cover each pit bay to check for when a team is refuelling so they know they aren't trying to pull a fast one with their slips, thats already a couple of hundred pounds plus per entry fee to cover their wages and accom etc, not the right thing to do at all, plus cross referencing the slips of hastily written paper with the pit reports from the timekeepers would massively multiply the workload of the person checking the times (not to mention the extra levels of potential for cheating/mistakes added in) so we are back to not knowing the result before the end of the race.
Also, without wishing to be pedantic you did say you had a number of SIMPLE ways of policing the pitstops...
Henry, you may remember the conversation we had in the bar a Snetterton '08 a number of hours after the race when we still didn't know the result and I'd got bored of waiting and packed all the trophies away? Wasn't it along the lines of simplifying everything to make the result at the line the result? Are we not now getting the result of the race the actual result as they cross the line?
Yes the penalty for a short pitstop is harsh, it is a penalty, used to dissuade people from doing it, so it is deliberately harsh.
We've had one instance of a competitor having a performance advantage this year and they were removed from the results of the race by the Clerk following scrutineering, that seems pretty harsh to me. They have since amended the performance of their car to fit the regulations and have raced succesfully with us since.
Also, without wishing to be pedantic you did say you had a number of SIMPLE ways of policing the pitstops...
Henry, you may remember the conversation we had in the bar a Snetterton '08 a number of hours after the race when we still didn't know the result and I'd got bored of waiting and packed all the trophies away? Wasn't it along the lines of simplifying everything to make the result at the line the result? Are we not now getting the result of the race the actual result as they cross the line?
Yes the penalty for a short pitstop is harsh, it is a penalty, used to dissuade people from doing it, so it is deliberately harsh.
We've had one instance of a competitor having a performance advantage this year and they were removed from the results of the race by the Clerk following scrutineering, that seems pretty harsh to me. They have since amended the performance of their car to fit the regulations and have raced succesfully with us since.
dhmotorsport said:
So 1 extra member of staff to cover each pit bay to check for when a team is refuelling so they know they aren't trying to pull a fast one with their slips, thats already a couple of hundred pounds plus per entry fee to cover their wages and accom etc, not the right thing to do at all, plus cross referencing the slips of hastily written paper with the pit reports from the timekeepers would massively multiply the workload of the person checking the times (not to mention the extra levels of potential for cheating/mistakes added in) so we are back to not knowing the result before the end of the race.
Also, without wishing to be pedantic you did say you had a number of SIMPLE ways of policing the pitstops...
I`m not sure I quite follow you David. I could stand on the pit wall, look back at the garages and monitor 1/4 of the pit lane quite easily. How were you monitoring re-fuelling infringements or weren`t you ? Those people could have handed their slips in. I`m sorry David but I can`t see how my suggestion takes any further manpower to implement.Also, without wishing to be pedantic you did say you had a number of SIMPLE ways of policing the pitstops...
If truth be told the mere fact of showing willing would act as deterrent enough in most cases. A skilled person could easily scan through the pitstop times, see which looked as though they might relate to fuel stops (it takes a certain amount of time to pull in, get out of the car, re-fuel, get back in the car and drive away) then tally those times up to a fuel slip.
As it is you have no idea at all how impossible it is for teams to time your stop accurately from entering the pit lane at a point you can`t see (and don`t always know exactly where it is), to crossing a point you can`t see (and don`t always know exactly where it is) some time after the car has been released from it`s garage. A simple timing of how long you are static is quite hard to get wrong.
As for delaying the result it would be no worse than the current situation. And penalising teams coming in for a splash and dash towards the end of a race as a knee-jerk reaction to a previous delay in posting results don`t get me started. The most exciting feature of endurance racing are the last few minutes when teams are pushing their fuel to the limits, weighing up a reduction in speed to save fuel against coming in for a re-fuel. Britcar`s draconian time penalty for a late pit stop takes that away or rather penalises those who give it a go.
As I remember it the delay at Snetterton was down to yet another display of pure incompetence on the part of the pit lane exit traffic light operator releasing cars at the wrong time, holding them at the right time and cars driving through red lights as a result. As usual it was decided to take no action. Had the shoe been on the other foot of course the full weight of several laps penalty would have been applied.
That was last year. I`m sure this year everything has been sorted out.
Sorry David but you`re talking to the wrong guy. I do admire your loyalty though, well done.
Henry
Henry, having raced myself in events with mandatory pitstop times I have a very good understanding of it from both sides of the equation.
The checking of pitstop times is not a quick and simple job and what if the time on a pit docket doesn't tally exactly with the time on the pit report? An MSA tribunal would rule there was no evidence to suggest the pitstop was for fuel ans the evidence doesn't match so the teams would get away with it.
If you never asked the timekeepers how long it took your car to travel from pit in to pit out then it will become more difficult to time the stop but no one seems to have trouble, whether they are doing this via this method or by radio to the guy with the stopwatch when they pass the pit speed limit boards which are ALWAYS placed on the in and out loops. If you can't see the 30mph signs...
The checking of pitstop times is not a quick and simple job and what if the time on a pit docket doesn't tally exactly with the time on the pit report? An MSA tribunal would rule there was no evidence to suggest the pitstop was for fuel ans the evidence doesn't match so the teams would get away with it.
If you never asked the timekeepers how long it took your car to travel from pit in to pit out then it will become more difficult to time the stop but no one seems to have trouble, whether they are doing this via this method or by radio to the guy with the stopwatch when they pass the pit speed limit boards which are ALWAYS placed on the in and out loops. If you can't see the 30mph signs...
Gassing Station | General Motorsport | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff