RE: Confirmed: Button To McLaren

[Lost_BMW]

silly chap said:

Well i honestly wonder about all this.

Did perhaps Brawn not want to resign Button and purposely made it difficult and humiliating to negotiate a salary. If they did outwardly say that they wanted to sign another driver then the British press and some of you lot would be all over them.

It might be the case. Ross Brawn said that he didn't really buy into the whole Button thing before JB started racing for them this season and then he apparently liked his driving but then he would need to say that.

Button was only winning races when his car was considerably better than everybody else.

Well, clearly he is a talented driver but he has never exactly been hot property the last few years and he is one of the most marketable drivers in terms of sponsorship etc but it seems that he is not able to secure the same terms as some others.

All this talk of money is crass and crude and who except Button should care. I believe however though that he is a bit of a spender. last year he ordered 2 Honda Jets in purpose to set up his own air charter business at some time in the future. Those are over 3 million pounds each.

Do you really think that Brawn believed Heidfeld to be better than Button?!

Even Rosberg (the non-German German in Germany's newest F1 team . .)

[RichB]

clorenzen said:

Stuff follwed by... Fact.

I love it when people do that, it's the web-forum equivalent of banging the desk and shouting "don't argue with me because I'm right." Of course all it does is cause others to respond with reasons why the OP is wrong!

[Carmo99]

//dean said:

[quote=SleeperCell
I think I'd rather watch Nicole Scherzinger and Jessica Michibata going at it.

mmmmm, just gone moist

[Rollcage]

KeithR said:

I'm a big Button fan, if my posts haven't already made that clear, but I'm willing to take a realistic view on Jenson's prospects next year in that I don't think he'll be able to challenge Hamilton. BUT this is not because he is in any way ordinary or incapable of doing so.

I agree with Jackie Stewart in that the big challenge for him next year will be acclimatising to a new team and culture, in which Lewis already has 3 years experience with his feet firmly under the table. Next year for Jenson will be about building a rapport with his engineers and developing the car. It's a long process, during which he cannot possibly be expected to be on Hamilton's pace, nor could ANY driver. We've seen this year with Fisi how getting out of one car into another can drastically affect a driver's performance. People need to take this into account before slating Button.

In the years that follow, when both drivers are on a more equal footing, then we can start to seriously compare these two.

I don't however agree with Jackie Stewart that Jenson has made a mistake going to McLaren. The way I see it, he's 29 and not getting any younger, and has snapped up the opportunity to drive for one of the most prominent and prestigeous teams in the sport. Who wouldn't?

I would disagree with the assertion that it will take JB all season to be on LH's pace. While LH will certainly be more comfortable within the familiar environment of his team I feel JB will have enough time behind the wheel before Bahrain to give us a pretty accurate indicator of how quick he will be.

Looking at the Mclaren towards the end of the year LH was not having to fight the car at all - the car was doing exactly what he wanted,when he wanted it judging from the in car shots.Nice linear steering movements. I would have thought this would suit JB, with a bit of fine tuning.

Mclaren should be able to field a competitive car, and Button is doubtless a talented driver (look at his karting record), so I would have thought a good driver in a good car will be on the pace pretty quickly. Alonso and Hamilton were both new to the team in 2007 and both were quick out of the box - Alonso won his second race! I see no reason why Jenson will fare any differently.

[KeithR]

How much testing time will he get before Bahrain?

It won't help Jenson in the slightest if Brawn stick true to their word about not releasing him until next year. Think of all that time lost that he could otherwise be spending getting acquainted with his new team.

I like your sentiments though! I really hope he can get to grips with the car early on. With all the surprises of recent times, who knows, maybe he'll get into that McLaren and drive the sh*t out of it!

[Rollcage]

KeithR said:

How much testing time will he get before Bahrain?

It won't help Jenson in the slightest if Brawn stick true to their word about not releasing him until next year. Think of all that time lost that he could otherwise be spending getting acquainted with his new team.

I like your sentiments though! I really hope he can get to grips with the car early on. With all the surprises of recent times, who knows, maybe he'll get into that McLaren and drive the sh*t out of it!

I dont think the 2010 cars will be testing until next year, so if Brawn stick to their guns it wont matter too much. Anyway, I am sure that Jenson wont be a stranger to the Mclaren guys come Jan 1st 2010.

[35secToNuvolari]

Rollcage said:

KeithR said:

How much testing time will he get before Bahrain?

It won't help Jenson in the slightest if Brawn stick true to their word about not releasing him until next year. Think of all that time lost that he could otherwise be spending getting acquainted with his new team.

I like your sentiments though! I really hope he can get to grips with the car early on. With all the surprises of recent times, who knows, maybe he'll get into that McLaren and drive the sh*t out of it!

I dont think the 2010 cars will be testing until next year, so if Brawn stick to their guns it wont matter too much. Anyway, I am sure that Jenson wont be a stranger to the Mclaren guys come Jan 1st 2010.

I think Button needs to just set up a cot outside of the simulator's door. He's a good driver, but I'm not confident he isn't distracted with outside stuff. I know he's learned a lot and improved his application over the years, but he needs to adopt a Schumi level of dedication this year. He also needs to be able to have a good, close support group around him, people that will help him manage him emotionally too. last year showed that this was a weakness in his approach, and he needs good, smart, honest, but emotionally supportive people around him. I don't think he'll find those people in the team, either. They will have to be from the outside--two or three people, that's it. I think that he might find what Coulthard found and Kovi found, that the atmosphere is on one side of the garage. I think he should also insist on having the option of being within a half kilo of Hamilton's fuel load. They seemed to have kept Kovi heavy, and I think that this was a source of frustration for him. Why (from what I generally recall) they allowed Hamilton to go light a few times on '07, but not let Kovi have a few "fliers" over the last two years, I don't understand.

Anyways, I'm glad he's going for it. This will be the biggest test of his career, I think. And although not necessarily the best thing for his image, it is an honorable decision. He's got money and a championship. This is the next challenge and I'm glad he's taking it. I think the criticism of his decision is a bit shallow. To stay away from a team and a driver so no one really knows how good you are, or to protect your marketability, your employability is less interesting, less meaningful than wanting to test oneself against the best.

[flemke]

35secToNuvolari said:

Rollcage said:

KeithR said:

How much testing time will he get before Bahrain?

It won't help Jenson in the slightest if Brawn stick true to their word about not releasing him until next year. Think of all that time lost that he could otherwise be spending getting acquainted with his new team.

I like your sentiments though! I really hope he can get to grips with the car early on. With all the surprises of recent times, who knows, maybe he'll get into that McLaren and drive the sh*t out of it!

I dont think the 2010 cars will be testing until next year, so if Brawn stick to their guns it wont matter too much. Anyway, I am sure that Jenson wont be a stranger to the Mclaren guys come Jan 1st 2010.

I think Button needs to just set up a cot outside of the simulator's door. He's a good driver, but I'm not confident he isn't distracted with outside stuff. I know he's learned a lot and improved his application over the years, but he needs to adopt a Schumi level of dedication this year. He also needs to be able to have a good, close support group around him, people that will help him manage him emotionally too. last year showed that this was a weakness in his approach, and he needs good, smart, honest, but emotionally supportive people around him. I don't think he'll find those people in the team, either. They will have to be from the outside--two or three people, that's it. I think that he might find what Coulthard found and Kovi found, that the atmosphere is on one side of the garage. I think he should also insist on having the option of being within a half kilo of Hamilton's fuel load. They seemed to have kept Kovi heavy, and I think that this was a source of frustration for him. Why (from what I generally recall) they allowed Hamilton to go light a few times on '07, but not let Kovi have a few "fliers" over the last two years, I don't understand.

Anyways, I'm glad he's going for it. This will be the biggest test of his career, I think. And although not necessarily the best thing for his image, it is an honorable decision. He's got money and a championship. This is the next challenge and I'm glad he's taking it. I think the criticism of his decision is a bit shallow. To stay away from a team and a driver so no one really knows how good you are, or to protect your marketability, your employability is less interesting, less meaningful than wanting to test oneself against the best.

Taz,

Fuel stops not allowed next year, so wrt strategy they'll be on level pegging (unless they both should want to change tyres on the same lap).

I've got to believe that Button is going to apply himself over the winter like never before. Apart from the likelihood that McLaren will be a better team over the next 3 years than Merc will be, his primary motive must have been, after getting a WDC, to see how good he really was. There is no point in doing that if you're not willing to put everything into it.
As a McLaren supporter, I was unenthusiastic about the prospect of Raikkonen's returning. Assuming that the car suits him well enough, I think that Button will surprise on the upside, whilst the doubters shall also see that Hamilton really is special.

[35secToNuvolari]

Aw crap. Thanks for the reply, but now my wordy post is immortalized.

I have not really thought about the implications of the rule changes, but I guess there is no reason not to have the same race fuel for both drivers. Great! I still think that the general sentiment about freedom within the team could still apply. Jense will have it to begin with, but there is a danger that the team could loose faith in him, begin to think about him as a no. 2, and take it away from him. The three year contract seems one year too long. If he doesn't perform by the half-way point next year, I think he'd start to feel the strictures of the team. Then, I think he'd last one more season before looking around again.

[llewop]

35secToNuvolari said:

Aw crap. Thanks for the reply, but now my wordy post is immortalized.

I have not really thought about the implications of the rule changes, but I guess there is no reason not to have the same race fuel for both drivers. Great! I still think that the general sentiment about freedom within the team could still apply. Jense will have it to begin with, but there is a danger that the team could loose faith in him, begin to think about him as a no. 2, and take it away from him. The three year contract seems one year too long. If he doesn't perform by the half-way point next year, I think he'd start to feel the strictures of the team. Then, I think he'd last one more season before looking around again.

Same race fuel not just for each driver in a team, but ALL the drivers: assuming fuel consumption is the same, which it doesn't seem to be - Merc's seem better on that than maybe Ferrari for instance. Reading your post though, it has occured to me that there might be differences between drivers in a team on fuel load - if one has a 'heavier foot'? Don't know if that could make a difference next year? NB: I really have no idea if it will affect things, nor am I trying to fuel a debate on relative lead footedness... but if someone was heavier in useage; they would need to start the race heavier than their team mate, maybe not by much

[35secToNuvolari]

llewop said:

35secToNuvolari said:

Aw crap. Thanks for the reply, but now my wordy post is immortalized.

I have not really thought about the implications of the rule changes, but I guess there is no reason not to have the same race fuel for both drivers. Great! I still think that the general sentiment about freedom within the team could still apply. Jense will have it to begin with, but there is a danger that the team could loose faith in him, begin to think about him as a no. 2, and take it away from him. The three year contract seems one year too long. If he doesn't perform by the half-way point next year, I think he'd start to feel the strictures of the team. Then, I think he'd last one more season before looking around again.

Same race fuel not just for each driver in a team, but ALL the drivers: assuming fuel consumption is the same, which it doesn't seem to be - Merc's seem better on that than maybe Ferrari for instance. Reading your post though, it has occured to me that there might be differences between drivers in a team on fuel load - if one has a 'heavier foot'? Don't know if that could make a difference next year? NB: I really have no idea if it will affect things, nor am I trying to fuel a debate on relative lead footedness... but if someone was heavier in useage; they would need to start the race heavier than their team mate, maybe not by much

Yeah, you're right--driving style will affect fuel loads. That makes me wonder about what other details will play a part. What about different drag configurations? Will one opt for a lower-drag wing to raise the fuel-economy and lower weight? I think a lack of interest in the '10 rule changes caused by me miss the return of low-fuel qualifying.

[llewop]

35secToNuvolari said:

driving style will affect fuel loads. That makes me wonder about what other details will play a part. What about different drag configurations? Will one opt for a lower-drag wing to raise the fuel-economy and lower weight? I think a lack of interest in the '10 rule changes caused by me miss the return of low-fuel qualifying.

Although it makes sense for it too (who would want to see cars wallow around in Q3 with full distance race fuel onboard?) I don't think it has been absolutely confirmed that Q3 will be low-fuel!

[tridave]

35secToNuvolari said:

llewop said:

35secToNuvolari said:

Aw crap. Thanks for the reply, but now my wordy post is immortalized.

I have not really thought about the implications of the rule changes, but I guess there is no reason not to have the same race fuel for both drivers. Great! I still think that the general sentiment about freedom within the team could still apply. Jense will have it to begin with, but there is a danger that the team could loose faith in him, begin to think about him as a no. 2, and take it away from him. The three year contract seems one year too long. If he doesn't perform by the half-way point next year, I think he'd start to feel the strictures of the team. Then, I think he'd last one more season before looking around again.

Same race fuel not just for each driver in a team, but ALL the drivers: assuming fuel consumption is the same, which it doesn't seem to be - Merc's seem better on that than maybe Ferrari for instance. Reading your post though, it has occured to me that there might be differences between drivers in a team on fuel load - if one has a 'heavier foot'? Don't know if that could make a difference next year? NB: I really have no idea if it will affect things, nor am I trying to fuel a debate on relative lead footedness... but if someone was heavier in useage; they would need to start the race heavier than their team mate, maybe not by much

Yeah, you're right--driving style will affect fuel loads. That makes me wonder about what other details will play a part. What about different drag configurations? Will one opt for a lower-drag wing to raise the fuel-economy and lower weight? I think a lack of interest in the '10 rule changes caused by me miss the return of low-fuel qualifying.

I think the full fuel load next year will only help McLaren as they where the only car on the grid to have the 85kg weight penalty of KERS and they ended the year with great pace.

[matt frost]

FNG said:

TJD2003 said:

See Mr Frost is still trolling the Button fans.

Every thread is ruined by him and his ilk turning it into a button is rubbish fete.

Whats the point ? I dont know.

OCD maybe the answer, cant stop posting crap on the internet.

You cant win, hell just change his aurgumant to suit his position and carry on aurguing.

Regards
TJ

You can win - ignore him. He's trolling, as you say, and admitted it the other week.

matt frost said:

LOL why do people take the bait and keep replying?

It is a wind-up. This has all been discussed before.

From here http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

Folk like that don't deserve replies. They deserve the crash.net forums.

More like you didn't reply because your best argument was, 'you can't prove what you are saying and neither can I'. LOL.

LOL how sad digging up old threads. That thread became a wind-up yes, not all my posts are though. I may aswell find a post by you saying 'great win by Button this weekend' and quote it after a he comes 7th. Sadly bringing things up a couple of months later is a bit pointless.

I apologise dear sir for airing my opinion on the matter here, where I have not actually slagged him off. Like many others, I don't think Button is a match for Lewis, however I think he will be great at McLaren and help them massively where Kovi could not and did not. I am not quite sure what is wrong with what I put?

Edited by matt frost on Friday 20th November 09:01

[FNG]

tridave said:

I think the full fuel load next year will only help McLaren as they where the only car on the grid to have the 85kg weight penalty of KERS and they ended the year with great pace.

KERS wasn't a weight penalty - it was a weight distribution penalty.

Having the system didn't generally put cars overweight, it just prevented the teams optimising weight distribution by moving ballast around.

Next season's pace is going to be dictated by who can get the best aero package together, based on this season's performance given that the regs aren't changing much, but with a longer wheelbase to accomodate the larger fuel tank.

[Dakkon]

MSTRBKR said:

FNG said:

tridave said:

I think the full fuel load next year will only help McLaren as they where the only car on the grid to have the 85kg weight penalty of KERS and they ended the year with great pace.

KERS wasn't a weight penalty - it was a weight distribution penalty.

Having the system didn't generally put cars overweight, it just prevented the teams optimising weight distribution by moving ballast around.

Next season's pace is going to be dictated by who can get the best aero package together, based on this season's performance given that the regs aren't changing much, but with a longer wheelbase to accomodate the larger fuel tank.

Yep. And it was also only +30kg, but gave 85bhp extra power.

It was origionally quite heavy but by the end of the season they got KERS to 30kg's,

[subzero]

Dakkon said:

MSTRBKR said:

FNG said:

tridave said:

I think the full fuel load next year will only help McLaren as they where the only car on the grid to have the 85kg weight penalty of KERS and they ended the year with great pace.

KERS wasn't a weight penalty - it was a weight distribution penalty.

Having the system didn't generally put cars overweight, it just prevented the teams optimising weight distribution by moving ballast around.

Next season's pace is going to be dictated by who can get the best aero package together, based on this season's performance given that the regs aren't changing much, but with a longer wheelbase to accomodate the larger fuel tank.

Yep. And it was also only +30kg, but gave 85bhp extra power.

It was origionally quite heavy but by the end of the season they got KERS to 30kg's,

And Ferrari also had KERS.

Although its also in the rules for 2010, i think i read somewhere that the teams have all agreed not to run it. WHich seems odd.

[KeithR]

subzero said:

Dakkon said:

MSTRBKR said:

FNG said:

tridave said:

I think the full fuel load next year will only help McLaren as they where the only car on the grid to have the 85kg weight penalty of KERS and they ended the year with great pace.

KERS wasn't a weight penalty - it was a weight distribution penalty.

Having the system didn't generally put cars overweight, it just prevented the teams optimising weight distribution by moving ballast around.

Next season's pace is going to be dictated by who can get the best aero package together, based on this season's performance given that the regs aren't changing much, but with a longer wheelbase to accomodate the larger fuel tank.

Yep. And it was also only +30kg, but gave 85bhp extra power.

It was origionally quite heavy but by the end of the season they got KERS to 30kg's,

And Ferrari also had KERS.

Although its also in the rules for 2010, i think i read somewhere that the teams have all agreed not to run it. WHich seems odd.

Not odd...good! Either they all have it, or none at all. Good riddence to it imo.

[FNG]

Just wait for someone to break the agreement. I'll be amazed if we get through the whole 2010 season without seeing KERS on some cars.

The interesting bit will be seeing which teams have developed it in the background and can introduce it as soon as another team does, and which will have honoured the agreement to the letter and not designed it into their car at all.

I seem to recall murmurings about Williams not adopting the agreement not to run KERS: if they have it and end up front-runners in the early races, I predict that all gentlemanly conduct will be tossed out of the window forthwith!

[dalton3106]

The KERS thing is about money. I read somewhere that the systems cost £millions to develop, this is at a time when the FIA are supposed to be making the teams save money! Williams have invested hugely in a Kinetic system completely different to the others but have never been able to use it in anger which is why they didn't want to drop it. They're supposed to have developed it to be used in road cars too so they should be able to recoup some of their loses.

I'm a huge Button fan and followed his career from his pre F1 days. I'm totally undecided as to whether it'll be a good move for him going to McLaren. He's gone from a position of stability and strength at Brawn to being on the backfoot against Lewis Hamilton who has been on Ron Dennis' books since he was 8. I just hope that he gets the same chances as Hamilton as Heiki only got the new car parts one to two races after Lewis.

Part of the reason that Button fell away towards the end of last season was a lack of resources at Brawn as they started developing next years car quite early and couldn't concentrate wholly on this years car. Without testing they made a mistake with some of the updates which led to an instability under braking which Jens apparently hates but Rubens could drive around a little more hence their differences in performance. I also feel that Button has a small advantage over Lewis due to the lack of refuelling next year. Lewis likes to turn the car much more on the throttle and produces alot of wheelspin which uses much more fuel. If they get their figures wrong (which I'm sure they won't at McLaren) we might even see him running short of fuel towards the end of some races and having to turn the revs down on the engine.

BTW, from what I've heard, John Button used to supply Lewis with kart engines many a year ago so I'm sure he and Anthony Hamilton will get along just fine.