Jenson Button's contract negotiations
Discussion
Nick_F said:
Strategy's going to have a lot less to do with it, though. Being able to use fewer tyres may be a bigger factor.
I'm responding to both Nick and Ralf above. Nick, I think you're right, there will be less of a problem with strategy now that low fuel quali and no-fuel-pitstops are here.Ralf, I had the same instinct that you did about Jenson and qualifying. In another thread I wrote that Jenson should demand the option of choosing his own strategy for qualifying. That is until I was reminded that the rules change next year, and it seems it'll be easier to achieve parity with both drivers' strategy, since both racers will start with very similar, race-length fuel loads. Although I think your sentiment is still valid, and I too am worried about Jenson's quali pace. It will be important for him to be right there with Hamilton. He can't get into the mindset that he'll make it up in the race. In my opinion, it's going to take an absolutely maniacal focus from him and comprehensive preparation with regard to every aspect of his approach. Even though there has been press about his triathlon endeavors, I don't get the impression his results were great, and that there is still room between him and the most fit in pit-lane.
Other than that, I keep remembering his duel with Alonso at Hockenheim, where his helmet was loose and he drove down the straights one-handed to keep it from lifting off his head. We saw a bit of that fight at the Abu finale. Although, he did lose that fighting instinct when he got nervous in the middle of this year. Next year he can't afford that. Hamilton has been able to handle pressure and keep his speed. Jenson will need to better protect himself.
FNG said:
flemke said:
FNG said:
And, as said many many times in the last few days, the Brawn was not the best car of the season. Not even of all the first 7 races.
In the first 7 races, Brawn had:- 6 wins
- 10 podiums
- 4 poles
- 10 top 3 in Q
- 4 fastest laps.
If it wasn't the best car, what was?
FNG said:
Not even of all the first 7 races.
The Brawn in the other races was the faster car, but not by the margin often claimed.There can be only one car that was, in the overall season, the best of the lot.
In the first 7 races, that plainly was the Brawn. Whether that was true over the full season may be debatable, although whatever advantage Red Bull might have had over Brawn in the latter part of the season did not always make the Red Bull the best car, as in some individual races the McLaren was the best car.
FNG said:
Note also Button's win in Spain despite a tactical disadvantage.
Lastly, as said before, the Red Bull has been rated as the car of the season but its drivers came 2nd and 4th in the Drivers championship and the team came 2nd in the Constructors.
Part of that was underperformance from Vettel and Webber, and part was Button in particular making his races work for him, and pulling off critical overtakes.
The "underperformance from Vettel and Webber" - would that be the same Vettel whom the team principals have just rated as being the season's "best driver"?Lastly, as said before, the Red Bull has been rated as the car of the season but its drivers came 2nd and 4th in the Drivers championship and the team came 2nd in the Constructors.
Part of that was underperformance from Vettel and Webber, and part was Button in particular making his races work for him, and pulling off critical overtakes.
I'm no Button fan, having always considered him more of a Ralf/Trulli/Fisi level driver in the last ten years than an Alonso/Hamilton/Michael level driver.
And whilst I'm delighted he has had a successful year, it will always be a bit tainted by the poor second half and the fact that he was outqualified by Barrichello in more races than not(and let's face it, that is a bit less impressive than being outqualified by an Alonso or Hamilton in the same car).
But when I have posted my opinions on here in the past, just like the rest of us, we really don't know until drivers put themselves head to head in the same car.
So I relish next year. And I'm sure I'll be one of the 'Button bashers' as we were described earlier that will happily recalibrate our rankings if we are proved wrong. I admire his decision and confidence. Let battle commence!
And whilst I'm delighted he has had a successful year, it will always be a bit tainted by the poor second half and the fact that he was outqualified by Barrichello in more races than not(and let's face it, that is a bit less impressive than being outqualified by an Alonso or Hamilton in the same car).
But when I have posted my opinions on here in the past, just like the rest of us, we really don't know until drivers put themselves head to head in the same car.
So I relish next year. And I'm sure I'll be one of the 'Button bashers' as we were described earlier that will happily recalibrate our rankings if we are proved wrong. I admire his decision and confidence. Let battle commence!
flemke said:
The "underperformance from Vettel and Webber" - would that be the same Vettel whom the team principals have just rated as being the season's "best driver"?
Yes, the very same. Beware Professional opinions # they do not know it all... often far from it ... Time and again, plenty of so called 'hot' drivers employed by Pro teams have not delivered ... Think those team 'principals' have deployed a crystal ball with their Vettle assessments.... 
Vettle, like Hamilton, has time on his side and can only learn and improve..... The latter named will learn more from Button than vice versa..... you can put a wiser head on younger shoulders, but it can be a struggle.... 
Over the whole season, the Red Bull cars edged it from this observer's viewpoint. RedBull's drivers patently did not.
Redlake27 said:
I'm no Button fan, having always considered him more of a Ralf/Trulli/Fisi level driver in the last ten years than an Alonso/Hamilton/Michael level driver.
And whilst I'm delighted he has had a successful year, it will always be a bit tainted by the poor second half and the fact that he was outqualified by Barrichello in more races than not(and let's face it, that is a bit less impressive than being outqualified by an Alonso or Hamilton in the same car).
But when I have posted my opinions on here in the past, just like the rest of us, we really don't know until drivers put themselves head to head in the same car.
So I relish next year. And I'm sure I'll be one of the 'Button bashers' as we were described earlier that will happily recalibrate our rankings if we are proved wrong. I admire his decision and confidence. Let battle commence!
You obviously put Alonso on a higher rank than Barrichello .... I do not.... And whilst I'm delighted he has had a successful year, it will always be a bit tainted by the poor second half and the fact that he was outqualified by Barrichello in more races than not(and let's face it, that is a bit less impressive than being outqualified by an Alonso or Hamilton in the same car).
But when I have posted my opinions on here in the past, just like the rest of us, we really don't know until drivers put themselves head to head in the same car.
So I relish next year. And I'm sure I'll be one of the 'Button bashers' as we were described earlier that will happily recalibrate our rankings if we are proved wrong. I admire his decision and confidence. Let battle commence!
What odds did you get on Button and Barrichello before the star of the 2009 season? I got 40-1 and 100-1 respectively .... come next March, I like you will have the opportunity to put our money where our mouths are .... if you dear "Button Basher" have the what's the oft used term Hamilton sometimes deploys ... yes, that's it ... Kahunas .....
Finally .... Please define 'same' car ~ no such thing! There really isn't.
..
I can remember Fisichella being voted 'the drivers champion' in a similar poll.
I can also remember Button being voted as the driver who had made the fewest mistakes by a group of German racing journalists. Button had just completed his first season. Someone has mentioned consistency on one of these threads.
I'm amazed to see Vettel be voted as the best by team owners. For me Seb made far too many mistakes, broke under pressure far too many times and did not put his ordinary team mate away in anything like the fashion i had predicted. Being led in the points by Webber was ridiculous, I thought.
I can also remember Button being voted as the driver who had made the fewest mistakes by a group of German racing journalists. Button had just completed his first season. Someone has mentioned consistency on one of these threads.
I'm amazed to see Vettel be voted as the best by team owners. For me Seb made far too many mistakes, broke under pressure far too many times and did not put his ordinary team mate away in anything like the fashion i had predicted. Being led in the points by Webber was ridiculous, I thought.
MGJohn said:
Over the whole season, the Red Bull cars edged it from this observer's viewpoint. RedBull's drivers patently did not.
That may be. It was too close for me to call (not to mention the fact that, like pretty much all of us here, I am unqualified to have a worthwhile opinion).What I do know, and what I was addressing, is that the Brawn was the best car overall for the first 7 races.
flemke said:
MGJohn said:
Over the whole season, the Red Bull cars edged it from this observer's viewpoint. RedBull's drivers patently did not.
That may be. It was too close for me to call (not to mention the fact that, like pretty much all of us here, I am unqualified to have a worthwhile opinion).What I do know, and what I was addressing, is that the Brawn was the best car overall for the first 7 races.
Yes, have to agree with your final commment ~ but, at the risk of us both being guilty of stating the bleedin' obvious ...
For the first few races the two Brawns appeared different class. A refreshing change even in the way of things 'old guard' F1.[/quote]
Finally .... Please define 'same' car ~ no such thing! There really isn't.
..
[/quote]
Of all the teams, McLaren have the best reputation for delivering driver parity. They probably would have won more driver's championships if they had put their full weight behind Kimi in 2003 and 2005 and Alonso or Hamilton in 07. However, Kimi, Coulthard, Mika, Alonso, Montoya and Hamilton were largely allowed to race for themselves which is why I'm confident that there can be no excuses for Button - or Hamilton, in 2010. That's why in my earlier post I said I admire Button for this decision, despite still being sceptical about the outcome. But we'll all know the truth in a year's time and it will be fascinating!
I think in a few years time both SV & LH will look back and think 'if I knew what I know now I really should have won those WDCs'?
We old farts remember far too fondly the energy & drive we had at their tender age, but too often forget how many silly things we did through lack of experience which just seem unbelievable in retrospect
We old farts remember far too fondly the energy & drive we had at their tender age, but too often forget how many silly things we did through lack of experience which just seem unbelievable in retrospect
heebeegeetee said:
MGJohn said:
You obviously put Alonso on a higher rank than Barrichello .... I do not....
- I think you're alone on that one, John. Barrichello - team mate to more wdc's than any other driver.
Sometimes I get the heebeejeebies ~ It can be very lonely being me ~ ~ particularly when I'm right ~ which has been known to happen.... it was a Tuesday ....In my 'things to note' form book, I have them as equals ~ the same rank.
It's always about the car ~ team orders never play a part do they ...
.
The Brawn was not the best car over the whole of the season - its just that when it was the best, it was comfortably the best, Jenson made the most of it and built an unbeatable lead. When the Brawn was not the best car, Red Bull was not as dominant as the Brawn had been as by then Mclaren and to a lesser extent Ferrari were also on the pace, and thus took points off them. Hey - thats life!
Hats off to Jenson on this move - if nothing else it should quieten those who have doubted his drive, motivation and hunger. He is obviously not lacking in confidence, self belief or courage.
March seems a long time away!
Hats off to Jenson on this move - if nothing else it should quieten those who have doubted his drive, motivation and hunger. He is obviously not lacking in confidence, self belief or courage.
March seems a long time away!
Rollcage said:
The Brawn was not the best car over the whole of the season - its just that when it was the best, it was comfortably the best, Jenson made the most of it and built an unbeatable lead. When the Brawn was not the best car, Red Bull was not as dominant as the Brawn had been as by then Mclaren and to a lesser extent Ferrari were also on the pace, and thus took points off them. Hey - thats life!
Hats off to Jenson on this move - if nothing else it should quieten those who have doubted his drive, motivation and hunger. He is obviously not lacking in confidence, self belief or courage.
March seems a long time away!
I concur. Hats off to Jenson on this move - if nothing else it should quieten those who have doubted his drive, motivation and hunger. He is obviously not lacking in confidence, self belief or courage.
March seems a long time away!
To add, I think to lose to Hamilton would do less damage to his image and career than a season of losing Rosberg would do.
All Jens needs to do, is kick Lewis' butt a few times and he'll raise his profile ten-fold.
MGJohn said:
... and ordered to allow Driver No. 1 to pass more times than the Spaniard.
Something no great driver would accept and never has. Rollcage said:
When the Brawn was not the best car, Red Bull was not as dominant as the Brawn had been as by then Mclaren and to a lesser extent Ferrari were also on the pace, and thus took points off them. Hey - thats life!
Who's to say? Maybe RB and their drivers just didn't get their act together, coupled with points needlessly lost when Brawn were dominant. Seb should probably have been on the podium in each of those 7 races, had he been good enough.heebeegeetee said:
MGJohn said:
... and ordered to allow Driver No. 1 to pass more times than the Spaniard.
Something no great driver would accept and never has. Rollcage said:
When the Brawn was not the best car, Red Bull was not as dominant as the Brawn had been as by then Mclaren and to a lesser extent Ferrari were also on the pace, and thus took points off them. Hey - thats life!
Who's to say? Maybe RB and their drivers just didn't get their act together, coupled with points needlessly lost when Brawn were dominant. Seb should probably have been on the podium in each of those 7 races, had he been good enough.
Rollcage said:
heebeegeetee said:
MGJohn said:
... and ordered to allow Driver No. 1 to pass more times than the Spaniard.
Something no great driver would accept and never has. Rollcage said:
When the Brawn was not the best car, Red Bull was not as dominant as the Brawn had been as by then Mclaren and to a lesser extent Ferrari were also on the pace, and thus took points off them. Hey - thats life!
Who's to say? Maybe RB and their drivers just didn't get their act together, coupled with points needlessly lost when Brawn were dominant. Seb should probably have been on the podium in each of those 7 races, had he been good enough.Hamilton scored 9 podiums in his first 9 GP. Given his greater experience, I think this season Seb should have strung a right good run of top 4 placings at least if he is as good as people are saying. I see no reason for him not to string a right good run of top 4 placings this season, if not a run of podiums. He is far more experienced now than Hamilton was in his first 9 GP.
imagine button had been in the mclaren 2009 and lewis in the brawn 2009. what do we think the outcome would have been. i recon button would have spent most of the race b
hing about how slow the car was in the rocky sounding voice he has when he's on the team radio.. mmhhhhmhhundrivablemhhadrian!!!mgmhmmmmmmhhhhhhh
i like button and he deserved his chance in a championship capable winning car and took it but he had a heck of a headstart. on a level playing field against hamilton i think he'll be blown away. as for lewis losing it at monza. nothing to lose everything to gain dnf. im sure if kovi had shown such determination he would still be in a job with mclaren. as such kovi's best driving manover of the year was at suzuka when he passed fishi coming out the pits using his kerrs
hing about how slow the car was in the rocky sounding voice he has when he's on the team radio.. mmhhhhmhhundrivablemhhadrian!!!mgmhmmmmmmhhhhhhhi like button and he deserved his chance in a championship capable winning car and took it but he had a heck of a headstart. on a level playing field against hamilton i think he'll be blown away. as for lewis losing it at monza. nothing to lose everything to gain dnf. im sure if kovi had shown such determination he would still be in a job with mclaren. as such kovi's best driving manover of the year was at suzuka when he passed fishi coming out the pits using his kerrs
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