"Community Speedwatch" on BBC News

"Community Speedwatch" on BBC News

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Discussion

Johnnytheboy

24,499 posts

201 months

Tuesday 14th December 2010
quotequote all
Puff the magic.. said:
Johnnytheboy said:
There you go again. Has it ever been used?

If so, when and where?
The question is can it be you tit, and you know it.
It can't be me tit, as far as I am aware. confused

I'm not disputing for a minute that two witnesses of whatever stripe can provide evidence of speeding to a court. I don't know it for sure, but the strength of your conviction makes me think it's entirely possible, despite you - like me - being some random on a forum. Ultimately it's not relevant.

However, I remain convinced that no NIP has ever been issued on the strength of two speedwatch volunteers without input from a real policeman or a SCP employee. Because if it had, we'd know about it.

The only evidence you've pointed to (elsewhere, see above) turns out to be a lie.

Just because something is possible doesn't mean it's happening.

I await your proof that it is, or suggestions on how I may establish whether it is or not. Because if it is, we should know!

Mill Wheel

6,149 posts

211 months

Thursday 16th December 2010
quotequote all
BertBert said:
Puff the magic.. said:
Johnnytheboy said:
There you go again. Has it ever been used?

If so, when and where?
The question is can it be you tit, and you know it.
How bizaare, answering a fairly clear question by asserting it's not the question!

Im interested in the answer too.

Bert
Hah! You'll be lucky - Puff is the king of the unanswered question!!rolleyes

Puff the magic..

584 posts

195 months

Thursday 16th December 2010
quotequote all
BertBert said:
Puff the magic.. said:
Johnnytheboy said:
There you go again. Has it ever been used?

If so, when and where?
The question is can it be you tit, and you know it.
How bizaare, answering a fairly clear question by asserting it's not the question!

Im interested in the answer too.

Bert
...but is it as bizarre as stating something, being told that the statement wasn't correct then denying the answer received by changing the subject completely then repeating that assertion by repeatedly asking a completely irrelevant question?

saaby93

32,038 posts

193 months

Thursday 16th December 2010
quotequote all
It all depends on the purpose of each speedwatch scheme
If theyre to educate motorists , speed watchers, police and the limit providers about what are safe speeds for the road it doesnt need to be enforcable, nor does it need numberplates to be collected

If the only way to get a team together in that area is to tell them that their results may be used in evidence it might help. A lot of this is to get the complainers out checking their own complaints.

If it does develop into showing that safe traffic speeds are above the limit, if due to some dire circumstance the limit cant be changed, wouldnt the enforcement bodies take over?

Johnnytheboy

24,499 posts

201 months

Thursday 16th December 2010
quotequote all
Puff the magic.. said:
BertBert said:
Puff the magic.. said:
Johnnytheboy said:
There you go again. Has it ever been used?

If so, when and where?
The question is can it be you tit, and you know it.
How bizaare, answering a fairly clear question by asserting it's not the question!

Im interested in the answer too.

Bert
...but is it as bizarre as stating something, being told that the statement wasn't correct then denying the answer received by changing the subject completely then repeating that assertion by repeatedly asking a completely irrelevant question?
That's an odd interpretation of the above. I would say it was far more relevant to know if Speedwatch volunteers had any legal powers than if in theory they could be used as witnesses (but aren't).

All I have ever stated is that I believe that no one has been given an NIP on the strength of CSW vounteers' findings, as their current deployment gives no legal force to their data.

You have repeatedly (here and on Safespeed) tried to sideline this in to a (one-sided) debate on whether a prosecution could be brought on the strength of any two witnesses. Initially you did this by quoting "no legal force" out of context.

CSW's current deployment carries no legal force: right or wrong?

To quote Wilts Constabulary: "Community speed watch volunteers only carry out a speed survey and do not give out fixed penalty notices or speeding tickets."

Hence my - thus far futile - attempts to get you to tell us if you have any evidence to contradict the official answer above. The closest you got to this (on Safespeed) was to link to the BBC story above, which as we've established, results from someone from Wilts Council telling porkies.

So if you've nothing else to add to rescue any credibilty (calling me names probably won't do it), I guess we can safely conclude that at present CSW volunteers don't initiate prosecutions for speeding off their own bat.

AAGR

918 posts

176 months

Thursday 16th December 2010
quotequote all
And, I wonder - who will be the first to go past some of these vigilantes, turn round, return, and leave them a written notice which says : We know where you live too ....'

Johnnytheboy

24,499 posts

201 months

Thursday 16th December 2010
quotequote all
AAGR said:
And, I wonder - who will be the first to go past some of these vigilantes, turn round, return, and leave them a written notice which says : We know where you live too ....'
Anecdotally, a lot of these schemes are fairly short-lived, one reason being that volunteers swiftly realise the "speeders" that they have imagined to be some nebulous bunch of auslanders turn out to be their own neighbours.

Or even themselves:

The internet said:
Three members of the Women's Institute campaigned against reckless drivers in their village of Herstmonceux, East Sussex. They were delighted when a new speed camera was installed, but are less pleased now. All three have since been caught on it and each has been fined £60.
rolleyes

Link



BertBert

20,359 posts

226 months

Thursday 16th December 2010
quotequote all
Johnnytheboy said:
The internet said:
Three members of the Women's Institute campaigned against reckless drivers in their village of Herstmonceux, East Sussex. They were delighted when a new speed camera was installed, but are less pleased now. All three have since been caught on it and each has been fined £60.
rolleyes

Link
You must see it surely? There are so many stories of that nature. "The busybodies wanted the speeding problem fixed, but it turned out to be them all along". That's made up. Not quite sure what the link is for.
Bert

Scuffers

20,887 posts

289 months

Friday 17th December 2010
quotequote all
BertBert said:
Johnnytheboy said:
The internet said:
Three members of the Women's Institute campaigned against reckless drivers in their village of Herstmonceux, East Sussex. They were delighted when a new speed camera was installed, but are less pleased now. All three have since been caught on it and each has been fined £60.
rolleyes

Link
You must see it surely? There are so many stories of that nature. "The busybodies wanted the speeding problem fixed, but it turned out to be them all along". That's made up. Not quite sure what the link is for.
Bert
10th paragraph in the link

Johnnytheboy

24,499 posts

201 months

Friday 17th December 2010
quotequote all
The Hurstmonceaux WI story is quite well known.

May still be made up, mind you.

BertBert

20,359 posts

226 months

Friday 17th December 2010
quotequote all
Be interesting to find out, but I bet it is made up. How would it come to light?
Bert

Mill Wheel

6,149 posts

211 months

Friday 17th December 2010
quotequote all
BertBert said:
Be interesting to find out, but I bet it is made up. How would it come to light?
Bert
It was reported in the Times back in 2006, and is referred to in this thread on pepipoo...
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=1495...
The links don't work - but after 4 years thats hardly surprising.
It was also posted up on Safespeed at the time, and I recall the links worked OK back then... to the Times newspaper!
http://www.safespeed.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=...

Johnnytheboy

24,499 posts

201 months

Friday 17th December 2010
quotequote all
Yeah, the People website was about the best working link I could find now, but I certainly recall it being reported as a fresh story.

Mill Wheel

6,149 posts

211 months

Saturday 18th December 2010
quotequote all
I do know that the speed camera at Ings has caught several local residents who campaigned for the limit to be reduced - and what is worse, they should have been slowing down anyway to turn into their residences!laugh

One local landlord beer was interviewed in connection with some vandalism of the speed cameras a while back - pointlessly as it turned out!bandithehe

Not sure why they singled him out! rantingbiglaugh

That is offset by an employee at the filling station who organised a text alert for when the mobile van turns up to counter those who fail to slow down quickly enough as they enter the limited area! You don't get that sort of service at supermarket filling stations!thumbup

streaky

19,311 posts

264 months

Saturday 18th December 2010
quotequote all
Johnnytheboy said:
Puff the magic.. said:
BertBert said:
Puff the magic.. said:
Johnnytheboy said:
There you go again. Has it ever been used?

If so, when and where?
The question is can it be you tit, and you know it.
How bizaare, answering a fairly clear question by asserting it's not the question!

Im interested in the answer too.

Bert
...but is it as bizarre as stating something, being told that the statement wasn't correct then denying the answer received by changing the subject completely then repeating that assertion by repeatedly asking a completely irrelevant question?
That's an odd interpretation of the above. I would say it was far more relevant to know if Speedwatch volunteers had any legal powers than if in theory they could be used as witnesses (but aren't).
They cannot be 'expert' witnesses regarding speed in the same manner as police officers, unless they have some specific credentials or experience in the area - e.g. ex-police officer. Were they to be called as (Mark One eyeball) witnesses to the speed, I'm sure an astute solicitor would invite them to demonstrate their powers of observation and estimation to the court. I doubt that the CPS would take the chance that they would be shown to be inaccurate, so would be highly unlikely to call them.

And in terms of their 'powers', no more than every other citizen's basic powers under the law.

Streaky

Johnnytheboy

24,499 posts

201 months

Saturday 18th December 2010
quotequote all
Mill Wheel said:
That is offset by an employee at the filling station who organised a text alert for when the mobile van turns up to counter those who fail to slow down quickly enough as they enter the limited area! You don't get that sort of service at supermarket filling stations!thumbup
I like it!

Johnnytheboy

24,499 posts

201 months

Saturday 18th December 2010
quotequote all
streaky said:
They cannot be 'expert' witnesses regarding speed in the same manner as police officers, unless they have some specific credentials or experience in the area - e.g. ex-police officer. Were they to be called as (Mark One eyeball) witnesses to the speed, I'm sure an astute solicitor would invite them to demonstrate their powers of observation and estimation to the court. I doubt that the CPS would take the chance that they would be shown to be inaccurate, so would be highly unlikely to call them.

And in terms of their 'powers', no more than every other citizen's basic powers under the law.

Streaky
That's exactly what Puff is saying, that's all you need. Quoting him with his 'Greenshed' hat on from Safespeed:

Greenshed said:
The legal force exists, it is in statute and prosecutions have resulted from the evidence of CSW volunteers. Of course you may not believe the BBC and Wiltshire police but now bring the evidence that their report is incorrect or the police have given them the wrong information and more importantly bring evidence from UK law that CSW have “no legal force” because that is what you have alleged and I have challenged.
Ignoring the misquoting of "no legal force" as usual, when I posted my FoI response...

Wilts Police said:
Wiltshire Police does not hold any data appertaining to speeding convictions that have resulted solely from the data obtained from Community Speedwatch Volunteers. Community speed watch volunteers only carry out a speed survey and do not give out fixed penalty notices or speeding tickets.
...he never replied. Strange.

saaby93

32,038 posts

193 months

Saturday 18th December 2010
quotequote all
Johnnytheboy said:
That's exactly what Puff is saying, that's all you need. Quoting him with his 'Greenshed' hat on from Safespeed:

Greenshed said:
The legal force exists, it is in statute and prosecutions have resulted from the evidence of CSW volunteers. Of course you may not believe the BBC and Wiltshire police but now bring the evidence that their report is incorrect or the police have given them the wrong information and more importantly bring evidence from UK law that CSW have “no legal force” because that is what you have alleged and I have challenged.
Ignoring the misquoting of "no legal force" as usual, when I posted my FoI response...
Wilts Police said:
Wiltshire Police does not hold any data appertaining to speeding convictions that have resulted solely from the data obtained from Community Speedwatch Volunteers. Community speed watch volunteers only carry out a speed survey and do not give out fixed penalty notices or speeding tickets.
...he never replied. Strange.
Puff's ok. He's not the only supposed expert in these threads who thinks winning an argument is about being abusive rather than looking at what's happening on the ground.
However it is useful having such opinion posted if only to see where they're coming from ( as it might be how the system operates) and just in case there is slim basis.
smile