has Charlie Whiting finally lost the plot?

[zac510]

Getting off topic (again) and it'd be nice to confirm with a team technician but if the pedal:throttle opening map is on an open loop circuit then it's no more computer controlled than a fuel or ignition map.

I suspect it would be open loop to subvert any traction control potential.

[Eric Mc]

Scuffers said:

Eric Mc said:

It's called "interpretation". All laws can be reinterpreted.

Maybe last year they didn't understand the significance of the technology and now they do.

Get rid of it - it's a computer controlled driver aid and should be banned as it breaches both the spirit and the meaning of the rules.

Note that I said i wan't concerned about blown diffusers, What I am against is computers determining how the car drives.
This is not a blown diffuser issue - it's a computer control issue.

think you need to read back up on what's being done....

the 'computer' as you put it is doing no more than providing exhaust gas flow at all times (as opposed to just when on throttle).

how do you interpret this as 'computer control' I am not quite sure, it's no more computer control an drive-by-wire throttle maps etc?

back to the essence of the argument, re-interpretation is for weasels, if you can't accept something that's been deemed legal for over a year, you have to question your place in the sport.

If a computer is determining the gas flow through the diffuser irespective of what the driver is doing, and thereby providing grip and stability in the corner, then that is "computer control" as far as I am concerned.

In my world racing drivers "drive" the cars, not a micro-chip.

[Scuffers]

Eric Mc said:

If a computer is determining the gas flow through the diffuser irespective of what the driver is doing, and thereby providing grip and stability in the corner, then that is "computer control" as far as I am concerned.

In my world racing drivers "drive" the cars, not a micro-chip.

that would imply some feed-back loop, something that does not exist.

it's purpose is to provide as much gas flow as possible, all the time.

what they were trying to ban this weekend is the production of exhaust gas whilst not on throttle, the problem with this is (as has become apparent) the crude way they were trying to do this screws up a lot of other stuff, used to prevent the rear locking under braking when the KERS is charging, leaving aside the lack of rear down-force.

[Eric Mc]

Good.

Cars should be difficult to drive - not easy.

[paulrockliffe]

So, in summary, we're going to have one race this season with different rules to all the others? And to compound that it's going to have a very negative effect on a very popular British team with two very popular British World Champion Drivers at the British Grand Prix?

You couldn't make this st up could you!

[Eric Mc]

paulrockliffe said:

So, in summary, we're going to have one race this season with different rules to all the others? And to compound that it's going to have a very negative effect on a very popular British team with two very popular British World Champion Drivers at the British Grand Prix?

You couldn't make this st up could you!

I think the rules should be changed randomly throughout the season. It all gets a bit samey otherwise

[paulrockliffe]

Eric Mc said:

I think the rules should be changed randomly throughout the season. It all gets a bit samey otherwise

Why don't the build some variation into the Spec ECU, so the cars are randomly crap/break down during the season to mix things up a bit?

I did quite enjoy Horner and Newey wandering about with faces all out of joint yesterday, but it's amazing how disingenuous that all was isn't it. Has anyone put the right questions to Horner yet bout all that?

[Scuffers]

Eric Mc said:

Good.

Cars should be difficult to drive - not easy.

which would be fine if they could actually have some testing time to adopt these random changes.

with the zero testing they can do now (in the name of money saving), it's fool-hardy, and bordering on dangerous.

[paulrockliffe]

Scuffers said:

which would be fine if they could actually have some testing time to adopt these random changes.

with the zero testing they can do now (in the name of money saving), it's fool-hardy, and bordering on dangerous.

Wide track, throttle cables, gear sticks, one day testing between each race please.

[Eric Mc]

Scuffers said:

Eric Mc said:

Good.

Cars should be difficult to drive - not easy.

which would be fine if they could actually have some testing time to adopt these random changes.

with the zero testing they can do now (in the name of money saving), it's fool-hardy, and bordering on dangerous.

To be honest, the advantage this system was giving the teams was pretty marginal (although important) so I don't think there will be any real danger element to it being disallowed.

It certainly didn't seem to affect the Red Bulls yeasterday - although Horner seemed the most upset.

[Scuffers]

Eric Mc said:

To be honest, the advantage this system was giving the teams was pretty marginal (although important) so I don't think there will be any real danger element to it being disallowed.

It certainly didn't seem to affect the Red Bulls yeasterday - although Horner seemed the most upset.

so, I imagined Alonso going off?, Hamilton/button/Massa/etc locking the rears at Vale?

Wait till they do that in a pack of cars and tell me it's perfectly safe to make these kind of changes?

[designndrive62]

If they want to be able to limit performance of top teams etc to keep it equal (which is essentially what this was all about) why dont they trial a success ballast system a la touring cars? seems to work very well there, mixing up results and creating interesting races?

[Eric Mc]

Scuffers said:

Eric Mc said:

To be honest, the advantage this system was giving the teams was pretty marginal (although important) so I don't think there will be any real danger element to it being disallowed.

It certainly didn't seem to affect the Red Bulls yeasterday - although Horner seemed the most upset.

so, I imagined Alonso going off?, Hamilton/button/Massa/etc locking the rears at Vale?

Wait till they do that in a pack of cars and tell me it's perfectly safe to make these kind of changes?

Blimey, locking wheels. We can't have that. We don't want motor racing getting too exciting, do we?

[Scuffers]

Eric Mc said:

Blimey, locking wheels. We can't have that. We don't want motor racing getting too exciting, do we?

FFS, are you determined to ignore the facts here?

it's a KERS/engine braking related issue, not driver, or are you saying to have them randomly fall off is just fine?

[Eric Mc]

Yes.

If they are good drivers, they can catch the situation and correct it.

The evidence from today's race is that it didn't seem to cause any problems whatsoever. Indeed, we had a rather exciting race - in fairly slippery conditions, especially at the start.

These guys are good. They don't need protection from themselves.

(PS - there is no need for "FFS" type copmments either. I can debate without resorting to swearing - can't you?)

[Scuffers]

well, that was all a bit of a waste of time....

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/93016

(and keep your hair on Eric....)

[Eric Mc]

Scuffers said:

well, that was all a bit of a waste of time....

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/93016

(and keep your hair on Eric....)

If only I could

[rubystone]

Eric Mc said:

To be honest, the advantage this system was giving the teams was pretty marginal (although important) so I don't think there will be any real danger element to it being disallowed.

It certainly didn't seem to affect the Red Bulls yeasterday - although Horner seemed the most upset.

Eric, for the first time this season, I got to watch F1 cars live. And through one of the best corners (even allowing for its slightly emasculated state now) in F1 - Club. And I can tell you that cars without the hot blown diffusers are nowhere near as "painted" to the road as those that d run them. The Saubers were perpetually nervous, whilst the Red Bulls were the class act. Although I would add that the Team Lotus was exceptionally stable and the Ferrari looked a very driveable car from the moment it took to the track on Friday morning - and from what I can gather, that only runs a cold difuser, correct?...so it is clear that teams CAN optimise their car around any configuration. It's clear that Ferrari has found pace through a different route.

I think that the Renaults were the most affected - they were nowhere near the pace all weekend.

[Eric Mc]

I was referring more to where they ended up in qualifying i.e. 1st and 2nd - which was pretty much where they have been all season. No doubt handling had been affected but not massively.

I want F1 cars to be twitchy, nervous and difficult to drive. I don't want them runing on rails.

[Scuffers]

Eric Mc said:

I want F1 cars to be twitchy, nervous and difficult to drive. I don't want them runing on rails.

Eric,

your starting to sound like a broken record....

We *all* want the cars to be more animated and harder to drive, but that does not mean changing the regs at random mid season is a good idea, do that in a less high-profile championship a few times and see how many entries you get for the next year...

You know that blown (hot or cold) diffusers are banned from next year, so why go on about it?

you can also be pretty sure than next years cars will be faster/have more down-force/etc. than this years, it's called innovation and progress.

may I suggest if you truly want un-drivable cars, then start lobbying the FIA for 1000+bhp engines and the same tyres we have now.