Metzger, can someone explain?
Discussion
Phooey said:
nsm3 said:
I have seen a gen 1 RS advert that openly claimed a new engine install at 14k miles, which cost......wait for it.....£52k !!!
I remember that advert. I think he got his 5 and 2 the wrong way aroundHe was a busy bloke !
- Karl Ludvigsen
Celebrating the Rennmezger
Behind the successes of both road and racing Porsches from the 1960s through the 1980s was Hans Mezger, a modest engineer who, however, had very little to be modest about.
It's obvious why I have a soft spot for Hans Mezger. He was one of the few at Porsche-along with Ferdinand Piëch-who wrote to publisher L. Scott Bailey about my book Porsche-Excellence Was Expected after it was launched in 1978. His letter included the following:
'I think I do not have to thank you and Karl just for the book but even more for the excellent work you have done. "Excellence was expected," also from you. This comprehensive book will be an important and helpful document. Karl's book is an appreciation for me and my colleagues at Porsche, who designed and built race cars for many years.'
When Hans Mezger wrote these lines one of his most impressive achievements for Porsche lay in the future. He was the planner and chief designer of the engine that McLaren used to score three straight drivers' championships from 1984 through 1986, one for Niki Lauda and two for Alain Prost, and two constructors' championships on the trot in 1984 and '85. With Mezger's turbo V6 sponsored by middle-eastern technology company TAG, McLaren's drivers scored seven poles, 18 fastest laps and 25 victories in 68 starts.
Although generally known as an engine man at Porsche, from 1965 Mezger-pronounced 'Mets-ger'-was in overall charge of racing-car design. That year a separate department for racing vehicle engineering, Konstruktion Rennfahrzeuge, was set up with Hans Mezger as its chief. He had overall responsibility for the eight-cylinder 908 and then the formidable flat-12 917, which between them won the sports-car world championships of 1969 through 1971.
Returning to his engine specialty, Mezger authored Porsche's project 2623, better known as the TAG-P01 turbo, that won the championships mentioned above in McLaren's Grand Prix cars. Later in the 1980s he designed the turbo V-8 for Porsche's foray into CART racing. Regrettably this was aborted before it had a chance to give of its best. Finally for the Footwork Arrows team of 1991 Mezger led the design of the Type 3512 Porsche V-12 that turned out to be his least satisfying effort. Hans Mezger retired from Porsche in 1994.
Born as he was on 18 November 2009, Hans Mezger celebrated turning 80 late last year. He first saw the world in the hamlet of Besigheim on Stuttgart's northern perimeter. After graduating from the Stuttgart Technical Institute, Mezger joined Porsche in October of 1956. His first post was in the calculation section of the design office, where he was responsible for camshaft design. A slender man of medium height with bold features and a deep voice, Hans Mezger was an engineer in whom his colleagues instinctively felt they could place their confidence.
Easily the most interesting of the engines that Mezger found at Porsche was the four-cam four-cylinder Type 547 that Ernst Fuhrmann designed for the racing Spyders. Enlarged for the Carrera 2s and Abarth-Carreras, the four bore the Type 587/2 designation. When the call went out for more power and improved durability to meet tougher competition in 1964, Hans Mezger stepped up to the challenge. He was then spending 30 per cent of his time in the drawing office and 70 per cent in the experimental department, where as the 'Rennmezger' he was recognised for his knack for making engines stronger quicker.
Porsche's staple pushrod fours also enjoyed the Mezger touch. He oversaw their improvement for the new 356C range introduced in 1963. His assignment was to rationalise the engine's design for more efficient manufacturing and to extract from the former Super 90 the 90 or more horsepower that it was supposed to have had.
'Whenever more power had been needed before,' Hans Mezger said, 'the inlet valves had always been made larger, but not the exhaust valves. In consequence they had become much too small.' He took the surprising step of reducing inlet-valve diameter from 40 to 38 mm so that the exhaust valve could be made larger, 34 instead of 31 mm. At the same time Mezger reshaped the inlet and exhaust ports, improving gas flow by making their cross-sectional areas more nearly constant. The result was the best-ever engine family for the 356.
While doing these jobs Hans Mezger was winding up his work on Porsche's Type 753 1½-litre flat eight for Formula 1, which was raced in 1962. Although Porsche credits him with the design of this complex four-cam eight, in fact he was the developer of an engine whose original layout was the work of Hans Hönick, who had worked in engine design with the departed Ernst Fuhrmann.
So elaborate was the eight that its assembly demanded 220 skilled man-hours, an almost unbelievable 27½ eight-hour days-which of course do not exist in the world of racing. For comparison it took no more than two such man-days to assemble a six-cylinder Carrera engine. Mezger made the best of it, during 1962 authoring several major changes of valve angles and combustion chambers that would have shown to advantage had Porsche not cancelled its Formula 1 effort after the 1962 season.
For Monza in 1962 Porsche's Formula 1 engines had a trick the engineers had been eager to try. They installed an electromagnetic clutch in the drive to the cooling fan that could disable it at the touch of a switch. They found that it was safe to cut it out of operation for eight to ten seconds without hazarding the engine's health. But, Mezger admitted, 'one hardly felt the eight horsepower or so that were saved.' Mezger even dyno-tested a more advanced version that used a thermostat to reengage the fan automatically when engine temperature rose above a certain level.
From the raw material of the Grand Prix Type 753 Hans Mezger fashioned the 2.0-litre Type 771 which continued in sports-car racing after 1962 and which, in 2.2-litre form, enjoyed important successes in the 907 chassis as late as 1968. Though it was a potent weapon in Porsche's sports-car arsenal the eight was pure hell to work on. It was as hard to adjust the valve timing on the early eight, said Mezger, as it was to do the same job on the twelve-cylinder 917.
Hans Mezger was also drawn into the design of a new engine to suit the successor to the 356. The first effort to crack this problem produced ungainly flat sixes with vee-inclined overhead valves operated by pushrods from two camshafts, one above and one below the crankshaft. Though these produced the desired 130 bhp in 2.2-litre form they had limited potential for development and no usefulness for racing.
By 1963 the planned flat six for the 901 was transformed completely. It now had chain-driven overhead camshafts operating the valves through rocker arms. What provoked this change? Hans Mezger put it succinctly and with a smile: 'We decided that if we were going to all the trouble of having two camshafts we might as well put them in the heads!' Mezger had much to do with the design of the final 901/911 six, working with the engineer responsible for its development, Ferdinand Piëch in his first major engineering project at Zuffenhausen.
The setting up of a separate department for Konstruktion Rennfahrzeuge, headed by Mezger, in 1965 was the result of the realisation that past experience wasn't being used to advantage. The turnover of projects in the Porsche drawing office was so rapid that new men were often put on racing jobs who had no inkling of how such efforts had been tackled and resolved in the past.
'Everybody started afresh each time,' said Hans Mezger. 'The guy who worked on the last job two years ago had left or was assigned to another project.' This pattern was especially clear during turbulent personnel changeovers in the early 1960s. It was time for a change. 'We felt it was better for racing projects to have the same people do the work all the time,' Mezger recalled. It was a tribute to his skills that he was named to head this new effort.
Well able to frame and articulate his design ideas, Hans Mezger was often deputed to explain them to the members of the Society of Automotive Engineers. In one such presentation he explained the approach to engineering that he shared with Porsche's technical chief, Helmuth Bott. 'We know what we can take over from earlier designs,' he said, 'and we also know what we do not want to take over. One thing is evident: the more experience, the smaller the risk in a new development, and the quicker-and thus also the cheaper-the development process. Porsche likes development work, and its participation in racing is one among several reasons for this.'
When Porsche fires up its old racers, Hans Mezger is seldom far away. Any questions arising can always be answered by the Rennmezger. He, after all, had been there and done that.
There seems to have been a very specific issue with the Gen 1 997 GT3 RS engine rear main seal. Using a very broad brush the 996 Turbo, GT2 and GT3 engine don't tend to leak from their rear main seal.
- Karl Ludvigsen
Celebrating the Rennmezger
Behind the successes of both road and racing Porsches from the 1960s through the 1980s was Hans Mezger, a modest engineer who, however, had very little to be modest about.
It's obvious why I have a soft spot for Hans Mezger. He was one of the few at Porsche-along with Ferdinand Piëch-who wrote to publisher L. Scott Bailey about my book Porsche-Excellence Was Expected after it was launched in 1978. His letter included the following:
'I think I do not have to thank you and Karl just for the book but even more for the excellent work you have done. "Excellence was expected," also from you. This comprehensive book will be an important and helpful document. Karl's book is an appreciation for me and my colleagues at Porsche, who designed and built race cars for many years.'
When Hans Mezger wrote these lines one of his most impressive achievements for Porsche lay in the future. He was the planner and chief designer of the engine that McLaren used to score three straight drivers' championships from 1984 through 1986, one for Niki Lauda and two for Alain Prost, and two constructors' championships on the trot in 1984 and '85. With Mezger's turbo V6 sponsored by middle-eastern technology company TAG, McLaren's drivers scored seven poles, 18 fastest laps and 25 victories in 68 starts.
Although generally known as an engine man at Porsche, from 1965 Mezger-pronounced 'Mets-ger'-was in overall charge of racing-car design. That year a separate department for racing vehicle engineering, Konstruktion Rennfahrzeuge, was set up with Hans Mezger as its chief. He had overall responsibility for the eight-cylinder 908 and then the formidable flat-12 917, which between them won the sports-car world championships of 1969 through 1971.
Returning to his engine specialty, Mezger authored Porsche's project 2623, better known as the TAG-P01 turbo, that won the championships mentioned above in McLaren's Grand Prix cars. Later in the 1980s he designed the turbo V-8 for Porsche's foray into CART racing. Regrettably this was aborted before it had a chance to give of its best. Finally for the Footwork Arrows team of 1991 Mezger led the design of the Type 3512 Porsche V-12 that turned out to be his least satisfying effort. Hans Mezger retired from Porsche in 1994.
Born as he was on 18 November 2009, Hans Mezger celebrated turning 80 late last year. He first saw the world in the hamlet of Besigheim on Stuttgart's northern perimeter. After graduating from the Stuttgart Technical Institute, Mezger joined Porsche in October of 1956. His first post was in the calculation section of the design office, where he was responsible for camshaft design. A slender man of medium height with bold features and a deep voice, Hans Mezger was an engineer in whom his colleagues instinctively felt they could place their confidence.
Easily the most interesting of the engines that Mezger found at Porsche was the four-cam four-cylinder Type 547 that Ernst Fuhrmann designed for the racing Spyders. Enlarged for the Carrera 2s and Abarth-Carreras, the four bore the Type 587/2 designation. When the call went out for more power and improved durability to meet tougher competition in 1964, Hans Mezger stepped up to the challenge. He was then spending 30 per cent of his time in the drawing office and 70 per cent in the experimental department, where as the 'Rennmezger' he was recognised for his knack for making engines stronger quicker.
Porsche's staple pushrod fours also enjoyed the Mezger touch. He oversaw their improvement for the new 356C range introduced in 1963. His assignment was to rationalise the engine's design for more efficient manufacturing and to extract from the former Super 90 the 90 or more horsepower that it was supposed to have had.
'Whenever more power had been needed before,' Hans Mezger said, 'the inlet valves had always been made larger, but not the exhaust valves. In consequence they had become much too small.' He took the surprising step of reducing inlet-valve diameter from 40 to 38 mm so that the exhaust valve could be made larger, 34 instead of 31 mm. At the same time Mezger reshaped the inlet and exhaust ports, improving gas flow by making their cross-sectional areas more nearly constant. The result was the best-ever engine family for the 356.
While doing these jobs Hans Mezger was winding up his work on Porsche's Type 753 1½-litre flat eight for Formula 1, which was raced in 1962. Although Porsche credits him with the design of this complex four-cam eight, in fact he was the developer of an engine whose original layout was the work of Hans Hönick, who had worked in engine design with the departed Ernst Fuhrmann.
So elaborate was the eight that its assembly demanded 220 skilled man-hours, an almost unbelievable 27½ eight-hour days-which of course do not exist in the world of racing. For comparison it took no more than two such man-days to assemble a six-cylinder Carrera engine. Mezger made the best of it, during 1962 authoring several major changes of valve angles and combustion chambers that would have shown to advantage had Porsche not cancelled its Formula 1 effort after the 1962 season.
For Monza in 1962 Porsche's Formula 1 engines had a trick the engineers had been eager to try. They installed an electromagnetic clutch in the drive to the cooling fan that could disable it at the touch of a switch. They found that it was safe to cut it out of operation for eight to ten seconds without hazarding the engine's health. But, Mezger admitted, 'one hardly felt the eight horsepower or so that were saved.' Mezger even dyno-tested a more advanced version that used a thermostat to reengage the fan automatically when engine temperature rose above a certain level.
From the raw material of the Grand Prix Type 753 Hans Mezger fashioned the 2.0-litre Type 771 which continued in sports-car racing after 1962 and which, in 2.2-litre form, enjoyed important successes in the 907 chassis as late as 1968. Though it was a potent weapon in Porsche's sports-car arsenal the eight was pure hell to work on. It was as hard to adjust the valve timing on the early eight, said Mezger, as it was to do the same job on the twelve-cylinder 917.
Hans Mezger was also drawn into the design of a new engine to suit the successor to the 356. The first effort to crack this problem produced ungainly flat sixes with vee-inclined overhead valves operated by pushrods from two camshafts, one above and one below the crankshaft. Though these produced the desired 130 bhp in 2.2-litre form they had limited potential for development and no usefulness for racing.
By 1963 the planned flat six for the 901 was transformed completely. It now had chain-driven overhead camshafts operating the valves through rocker arms. What provoked this change? Hans Mezger put it succinctly and with a smile: 'We decided that if we were going to all the trouble of having two camshafts we might as well put them in the heads!' Mezger had much to do with the design of the final 901/911 six, working with the engineer responsible for its development, Ferdinand Piëch in his first major engineering project at Zuffenhausen.
The setting up of a separate department for Konstruktion Rennfahrzeuge, headed by Mezger, in 1965 was the result of the realisation that past experience wasn't being used to advantage. The turnover of projects in the Porsche drawing office was so rapid that new men were often put on racing jobs who had no inkling of how such efforts had been tackled and resolved in the past.
'Everybody started afresh each time,' said Hans Mezger. 'The guy who worked on the last job two years ago had left or was assigned to another project.' This pattern was especially clear during turbulent personnel changeovers in the early 1960s. It was time for a change. 'We felt it was better for racing projects to have the same people do the work all the time,' Mezger recalled. It was a tribute to his skills that he was named to head this new effort.
Well able to frame and articulate his design ideas, Hans Mezger was often deputed to explain them to the members of the Society of Automotive Engineers. In one such presentation he explained the approach to engineering that he shared with Porsche's technical chief, Helmuth Bott. 'We know what we can take over from earlier designs,' he said, 'and we also know what we do not want to take over. One thing is evident: the more experience, the smaller the risk in a new development, and the quicker-and thus also the cheaper-the development process. Porsche likes development work, and its participation in racing is one among several reasons for this.'
When Porsche fires up its old racers, Hans Mezger is seldom far away. Any questions arising can always be answered by the Rennmezger. He, after all, had been there and done that.
There seems to have been a very specific issue with the Gen 1 997 GT3 RS engine rear main seal. Using a very broad brush the 996 Turbo, GT2 and GT3 engine don't tend to leak from their rear main seal.
nsm3 said:
...The original engines had 964 stampings, but the later ones have caught up with the model ref.
I believe that the 996 Mezger deriatives had the 964 stampings but the 997 ones did not. My 997 Turbo has a 996.XXX stamp IIRC.Apparently they can reliably handle (in Turbo form) 800BHP without a problem. My DMS stage 1/Capristo'd is understressed at 570 BHP then!
Sukh13 said:
And for the troll comment, if you don't want to discuss don't say anything, it is a genuine question. When you google it nothing really comes up except other boards asking specifically about models that had it. There is no wiki or anything.
Yeah, what the hell was that all about? I thought your question was perfect valid.My fault entirely - the misspelling in the Title and another version in the body of the OP, led me to think he was taking the p155, bearing in mind the ongoing pedantry on here about MeTzger.
I can only apologise profusely and hide behind the excuse of too much Red. If that won't do, you can guess the rest...
I can only apologise profusely and hide behind the excuse of too much Red. If that won't do, you can guess the rest...
Well its fairly complicated. The Mezger engine is the engineered-with-little-regard-to-cost motor that first made its entrance as a 3.2 chain cam, twin turbo in the 1998 GT1 (which won Le Mans) and had its roots both in the aluminium cased engines that appeared in the 911turbo (930) & 3.0SC, and the part-watercooled 962 4 valve engine. It also has a full dry-sump layout.
The point is that since 1998 its been the basis for all of Porsches race, 911 turbo and GT cars, usually in 3.6l, then 3.8l and finally 4.0l forms. Its very robust and has an excellent power to weight ratio.
In the past few years, the 'Mezger' engines have become more admired as representing the old Porsche engineering-led tradition, in contrast to the production/cost efficient 9*6/9*7 engines which, while great engines by most standards, have had their problems.
SS7
The point is that since 1998 its been the basis for all of Porsches race, 911 turbo and GT cars, usually in 3.6l, then 3.8l and finally 4.0l forms. Its very robust and has an excellent power to weight ratio.
In the past few years, the 'Mezger' engines have become more admired as representing the old Porsche engineering-led tradition, in contrast to the production/cost efficient 9*6/9*7 engines which, while great engines by most standards, have had their problems.
SS7
and a little known fact is that the 996 GT3 RS has different cylinder heads to the 996 GT3 as the RS heads are ported and it has a different map to take account of this.. Andreas Preuniger says about 400PS for the RS engine when run in. Porsche never released different power output claims for the different cars so it's very common to see media references to the cars having the same engine.
agtlaw said:
and a little known fact is that the 996 GT3 RS has different cylinder heads to the 996 GT3 as the RS heads are ported and it has a different map to take account of this.. Andreas Preuniger says about 400PS for the RS engine when run in. Porsche never released different power output claims for the different cars so it's very common to see media references to the cars having the same engine.
The media 
Describing a Porsche engine as a "Mezger" engine really started when Porsche invented the 996 3.4 engine and stuck that POS in the 996.
Previous to the 996 3.4 POS engine all Porsche 911s had had "Mezger" engines going back for many years but guess what, Porsche wanted to become the most profitable car manufacturer in the world and replacing an expensive proven engine (~£30+K worth of Mezger) with a brand new 21st century design (£~8K worth) and charging the same price did the job and made Porsche mega bucks.....
As time went by the marketing bluff about how good the new 3.4 996 lump was wore off and the problems started as we know today this is a cheap engine....
Porsche geeks found a way to differentiate the old reliable expensive engine with the POS cheapo and this was by calling it the "Mezger", so this guys name was used for any 911 engine which was based on the old design with the bolt on cylinders etc....
Porsche's final customer shafting IMHO is when they recently decided to market the GT3/2 engines as the "Motorsport" engines as if they were super special, which of course they are compared to the cheapo NA lumps but in 1995 the only engine you could have in ANY 911 was what they now described as a "Motorsport" engine..... Porsche marketing - job done 
Previous to the 996 3.4 POS engine all Porsche 911s had had "Mezger" engines going back for many years but guess what, Porsche wanted to become the most profitable car manufacturer in the world and replacing an expensive proven engine (~£30+K worth of Mezger) with a brand new 21st century design (£~8K worth) and charging the same price did the job and made Porsche mega bucks.....
As time went by the marketing bluff about how good the new 3.4 996 lump was wore off and the problems started as we know today this is a cheap engine....
Porsche geeks found a way to differentiate the old reliable expensive engine with the POS cheapo and this was by calling it the "Mezger", so this guys name was used for any 911 engine which was based on the old design with the bolt on cylinders etc....
Porsche's final customer shafting IMHO
is when they recently decided to market the GT3/2 engines as the "Motorsport" engines as if they were super special, which of course they are compared to the cheapo NA lumps but in 1995 the only engine you could have in ANY 911 was what they now described as a "Motorsport" engine..... Porsche marketing - job done It is interesting how the gen 1 997 (Mezger) is the engine that apparently exhibits the odd RMS/Crankcase problems (I have no data to back this, just a general sense from reading around), whereas the 996 variants are seemingly more robust?
Does anyone think this is due to the 30ish HP hike in power from 996 to 997, with the same 3.6L lump?
To go up another 20HP, they decided to bore out to 3.8L.
Does anyone think this is due to the 30ish HP hike in power from 996 to 997, with the same 3.6L lump?
To go up another 20HP, they decided to bore out to 3.8L.
TB993tt said:
Porsche's final customer shafting IMHO is when they recently decided to market the GT3/2 engines as the "Motorsport" engines as if they were super special, which of course they are compared to the cheapo NA lumps but in 1995 the only engine you could have in ANY 911 was what they now described as a "Motorsport" engine..... Porsche marketing - job done
Errrm.. they are compared with those made in 1995 too is when they recently decided to market the GT3/2 engines as the "Motorsport" engines as if they were super special, which of course they are compared to the cheapo NA lumps but in 1995 the only engine you could have in ANY 911 was what they now described as a "Motorsport" engine..... Porsche marketing - job done Gassing Station | Porsche General | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff