Shimano Alfine weight vs derailleur?

[a11y_m]

Watchman said:

Ironballs said:

Get me a BB located gear box with trigger shift and I'd be in heaven

That has to be the future.

That's what I'm hoping for in future (at a reasonable price)

[shalmaneser]

el stovey said:

I'm amazed we still have dérailleurs and gears and brake blocks rubbing against wheel rims on road bikes. You spend ££££s on a bike and although the frames are made out of materials from the future, the components and braking systems are really much the same as those 20/30 years ago.

I cannot wait for disc brakes on road bikes - apparently Dura Ace is going disc for 2013, will be very exciting! Disc brakes and thru axles all round!

[hopkinsgm]

Having recently had an Alfine 8 hub built into a 26" wheel, I would comment thus on the topic of spoke length/wheel strength. The diameter of the hub flange is so large that if you build up using regular 3 cross lacing, the spokes reach the rim at quite an angle, so the nipples don't seat correctly in the rim and will be more heavily loaded on one side than the other which isn't really ideal. To get the spokes to pull straighter, 2 cross lacing would be a better option, but would result in a less strong wheel. I went with the 3 cross lacing, and time will tell if it was the right thing to do. I hope so.

[anonymous-user]

a11y_m said:

Watchman said:

Ironballs said:

Get me a BB located gear box with trigger shift and I'd be in heaven

That has to be the future.

That's what I'm hoping for in future (at a reasonable price)

And to be fair the pinion is coming in at 2.7kgs so it needs to drop some weight and narrow the q-factor, then you'll need someone like Shimano or SRAM to mass market it on a whole range of bikes to an iso standard that the big boys like trek, giant etc.. will accept.

It's all well and good some high value niche makers coming up with novel test beds but unless it has real traction across the breath of the market, Shimano et al, will just ignore it ad carry on with their ancient solutions whilst they can make the current profits they do by continual refinement rather than revolution.

[rhinochopig]

shalmaneser said:

el stovey said:

I'm amazed we still have dérailleurs and gears and brake blocks rubbing against wheel rims on road bikes. You spend ££££s on a bike and although the frames are made out of materials from the future, the components and braking systems are really much the same as those 20/30 years ago.

I cannot wait for disc brakes on road bikes - apparently Dura Ace is going disc for 2013, will be very exciting! Disc brakes and thru axles all round!

I can't really see the point in discs on a road bike TBH. I've never felt the need for better brakes - even on a long descent. Just seems like an unnecessary weight penalty to me.

[Roman]

rhinochopig said:

shalmaneser said:

el stovey said:

I'm amazed we still have dérailleurs and gears and brake blocks rubbing against wheel rims on road bikes. You spend ££££s on a bike and although the frames are made out of materials from the future, the components and braking systems are really much the same as those 20/30 years ago.

I cannot wait for disc brakes on road bikes - apparently Dura Ace is going disc for 2013, will be very exciting! Disc brakes and thru axles all round!

I can't really see the point in discs on a road bike TBH. I've never felt the need for better brakes - even on a long descent. Just seems like an unnecessary weight penalty to me.

I've had serious brake fade descending a couple of Alpine and Lake District passes (probably due to my 'powerful' build.. ) so quite open to the idea.

Like the idea of an enclosed gearbox by the bb too.

Edited by Roman on Monday 5th December 23:45

[shalmaneser]

rhinochopig said:

I can't really see the point in discs on a road bike TBH. I've never felt the need for better brakes - even on a long descent. Just seems like an unnecessary weight penalty to me.

Just for lever feel more than anything. And wearing out rims is annoying. As is replacing/re lubing cables every six months or so.

[a11y_m]

shalmaneser said:

Just for lever feel more than anything. And wearing out rims is annoying. As is replacing/re lubing cables every six months or so.

Agree, that's what I went for discs on my commuter. Although I guess bleeding a pair of Avid Elixirs is just as annoying as replacing cables (I just can't get the knack of bleeding those despite managing Shimano/Formulas fine...)

[rhinochopig]

shalmaneser said:

rhinochopig said:

I can't really see the point in discs on a road bike TBH. I've never felt the need for better brakes - even on a long descent. Just seems like an unnecessary weight penalty to me.

Just for lever feel more than anything. And wearing out rims is annoying. As is replacing/re lubing cables every six months or so.

The thing is road bike forks are not very strong so will need strengthening considerably to cope with the torque forces generated by the calliper mounted on the fork leg. This will add a chunk of weight to a road bike.

As for wearing out rims, I'm now on my 4th winter on my winter MTB with V Brakes and the rims have plenty of meat left in them. And I can quite happily stop as quickly on the downhill sections as my mates who are running discs. I don't think I've ever worn a road bike rim out TBH.

I agree brake feel isn't as progressive, but there's a big penalty for such a minor benefit.

I have XTR brake cables fitted and they're still going well into their third winter. They get a quick squirt of GT85 every few rides down the lever end and they are almost as smooth as when first fitted.

[scubadude]

I think the jury is still out on rim vs disc brakes myself- discs have value in muddy/extreme MTB downhill but anywhere else they are a weight penalty and maintenance PITA- I have tried both on my MTB and recumbent, Mech/Hydralic Discs and V-Brakes all pulled a 130kg (bike plus rider) recumbent to a stop from 50mph downhill in +/- 3mtrs difference. Disc brakes are also more expensive to maintain, pads cost the earth and wear out so fast (if your a fatty like me) rim brake pads are cheap as chips.

The thing with derailleurs is efficency, its pretty high... some of the gearboxes do eat up power that should otherwise be driving you forwards. I've also found derailleur gears can be fixed with hammers and screwdrivers even from terrible damage, and can be got going again for the ride home even when almost destroyed (even if you shorten the chain to a single gear with no mechs left!)- with hub gears when its broke, its broke.

[anonymous-user]

scubadude said:

I think the jury is still out on rim vs disc brakes myself- discs have value in muddy/extreme MTB downhill but anywhere else they are a weight penalty and maintenance PITA- I have tried both on my MTB and recumbent, Mech/Hydralic Discs and V-Brakes all pulled a 130kg (bike plus rider) recumbent to a stop from 50mph downhill in +/- 3mtrs difference. Disc brakes are also more expensive to maintain, pads cost the earth and wear out so fast (if your a fatty like me) rim brake pads are cheap as chips.

The thing with derailleurs is efficency, its pretty high... some of the gearboxes do eat up power that should otherwise be driving you forwards. I've also found derailleur gears can be fixed with hammers and screwdrivers even from terrible damage, and can be got going again for the ride home even when almost destroyed (even if you shorten the chain to a single gear with no mechs left!)- with hub gears when its broke, its broke.

Disc pads can be cheap enough and in reality last longer for the same braking performance, modulation is better, also Discs are miles better in the wet, although on skinny road tyres it's probably all overkill.

http://www.lexs.co.uk/Product/Aztec-Sintered-Disc-...

4 pairs for £34 = less than a £10 a pair, decent Shimano pads retail for around for similar a price

http://www.merlincycles.co.uk/Bike+Shop/MTB++Parts...

Efficiency is in the same range in proper gboxes rather than certain hub designs which can lose an awful lot.

With regard to damage, I would very much doubt that the accidental damage you get on external derailers could ever happen on a BB box, that just leaves a strong enough strike to damage the casing and internals which would also probably render the rider as well as the Chainrings on an external bike useless as well.

[khushy]

Rholoff - enough said!

[einsign]

Anyone got any experience of these:

http://www.cube.eu/en/tour/uls/editor/

or even:

http://www.schindelhauerbikes.com/#/en/models/ludw... Using 14 speed hub: http://www.rohloff.de/en/products/speedhub/index.h...

[Minnsy]

Mate runs a Rohloff on his Cannodale Rush (carbon) - before that, it was on his Trek 'Y'. After initial expense - which I believe was around £900 for hub plus wheel, it has been faultless. Change the oil once a year, and thats all he does.

Does weigh more than traditional cassette plus derailleur on the rear wheel, but single ring up front, plus no front mech means the weight overall about the same.

Goes not give the full range as my 3x9 - but it does not seem to bother him at all.

He definately would not go back to derailleur..

[Barbarossa]

I've got a Rohloff hub on my MTB. Love it. Shifts from top to bottom whether you're pedalling or not, chain never comes off, nothing to go out of adjustment ... I worked out that the weight penalty was about 0.3 kg I think it's worth it.

To answer the original question - Deore front mech, rear mech, shifters, hub and cassette will be about 1400g.

Edited by Barbarossa on Sunday 29th April 21:07

Edited by Barbarossa on Sunday 29th April 21:34