Porsche Cayman S Sport 3.4 flat 6 broken down
Discussion
DebsBell said:
Petop,
Funnily enough, the dealership is on my patch and rest assured, I'll be parking the marked 5 series (or bike) in the customer car park when I go for progress reports.
I know a lot of motorists don't like coppers, especially traffic coppers as they're usually the ones they have first contact with and get issued a ticket for speeding etc. which puts points on their licence. I'd like to say I'm a nice cop and exercise discretion when appropriate. I'm a mature woman with considerable service, due to retire in 2016 however, after revealing that, I love my sports car and bike! How many 'older' women do you know who drive a Porsche (when it's on the road) and ride a 'blade?? Not many if any ...
Sounds to me like you're not a proper copper.........Funnily enough, the dealership is on my patch and rest assured, I'll be parking the marked 5 series (or bike) in the customer car park when I go for progress reports.
I know a lot of motorists don't like coppers, especially traffic coppers as they're usually the ones they have first contact with and get issued a ticket for speeding etc. which puts points on their licence. I'd like to say I'm a nice cop and exercise discretion when appropriate. I'm a mature woman with considerable service, due to retire in 2016 however, after revealing that, I love my sports car and bike! How many 'older' women do you know who drive a Porsche (when it's on the road) and ride a 'blade?? Not many if any ...
Perhaps you simply like wearing the uniform
Cheeky!!
Have you ever worn the uniform?? No one would choose to wear black synthetic lined trousers and body armour in the middle of summer. Gives new meaning to the expression 'Betty swollocks' if I had them.
I am real though ... !!!!!
Highly trained/qualified with several City and Guilds certificates to prove it.
Have you ever worn the uniform?? No one would choose to wear black synthetic lined trousers and body armour in the middle of summer. Gives new meaning to the expression 'Betty swollocks' if I had them.
I am real though ... !!!!!
Highly trained/qualified with several City and Guilds certificates to prove it.
DebsBell said:
Cheeky!!
Have you ever worn the uniform?? No one would choose to wear black synthetic lined trousers and body armour in the middle of summer. Gives new meaning to the expression 'Betty swollocks' if I had them.
I am real though ... !!!!!
Highly trained/qualified with several City and Guilds certificates to prove it.
What I get up to at weekends is totally within the law Have you ever worn the uniform?? No one would choose to wear black synthetic lined trousers and body armour in the middle of summer. Gives new meaning to the expression 'Betty swollocks' if I had them.
I am real though ... !!!!!
Highly trained/qualified with several City and Guilds certificates to prove it.
Black synthetic lined trousers....... Hmmmmmm
Sorry to hear of your Bad luck.
I really hope Porsche Pull the Finger out and give 100% goodwill, which i think is reasonable under the circumstances of a Fully OPC Serviced vehicle with 10k on the clock!!!
6k is way excessive, i know they ain't cheap to deal with, but 6k just for a strip down, they are taking the Pee!
I'd also seek legal advice on this one. If my Cayman had done 80k, had no warranty and the engine went, then i'd expect 0% help of goodwill from Porsche, my fault for no warranty, but only covering such a small amount of mileage, surely this cannot be put down to normal wear and tear.
The Situation Your in Scared me when i was looking to buy a Porsche. Wanted the Gen2 for obvious reasons, but just could not stretch financially to the R or Low Mileage S that i wanted. So spent my 30k elsewhere. I Defo would not be put off the Gen2 Cayman, but thought of a Gen1 letting go on the Ring sent a shiver up my spine, enough to stay well clear!!!
Hope it works out with Minimal expense, or none!!!
I really hope Porsche Pull the Finger out and give 100% goodwill, which i think is reasonable under the circumstances of a Fully OPC Serviced vehicle with 10k on the clock!!!
6k is way excessive, i know they ain't cheap to deal with, but 6k just for a strip down, they are taking the Pee!
I'd also seek legal advice on this one. If my Cayman had done 80k, had no warranty and the engine went, then i'd expect 0% help of goodwill from Porsche, my fault for no warranty, but only covering such a small amount of mileage, surely this cannot be put down to normal wear and tear.
The Situation Your in Scared me when i was looking to buy a Porsche. Wanted the Gen2 for obvious reasons, but just could not stretch financially to the R or Low Mileage S that i wanted. So spent my 30k elsewhere. I Defo would not be put off the Gen2 Cayman, but thought of a Gen1 letting go on the Ring sent a shiver up my spine, enough to stay well clear!!!
Hope it works out with Minimal expense, or none!!!
DebsBell said:
I asked for confirmation that the boroscope had been done and was informed that it had not as they already knew there was no compression in cylinder six and that was where the problem lay. They needed to strip the engine to see the damage.
I can understand why they say stripping the engine is needed because they know it's broken, where it's broken and thus the next obvious step is to pull it apart to see what's actually bust.Personally I would insist on a boroscope examination. We used them quite a lot in industrial inspections and I would expect a competent operator to be able to see both the cylinder head, valves, piston & bore wall surfaces. If there is scoring then they should pick it up within a minute and you'd have pictures to send to Porsche HQ. At that point Porsche should be able to give better guidance on what they feel the overall costs would be and how far their goodwill goes.
But more than anything I'm struggling with the attitude that you should be paying to strip & examine the engine. I could be persuaded to fund the boroscope examination, and then if it didn't show scored bores I'd be prepared to haggle the labour costs if they could convince me that the damage had been caused by my driving style/whatever.
The simple fact is that your car has been correctly maintained in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions using their appointed agents and has failed at a mileage which could be considered as less than 12months normal usage. That has got to be a goodwill, no-cost fix otherwise why on earth should anyone bother using the dealer network ? It's certainly got me wondering the value of "FPSH".
Can I add one thing to supplement rob's post above? Check the terms of your car, household, AA cover etc for legal expenses cover. You may well find you have cover and if so seeking the advice rob suggested wont cost you anything. As he says, I think you have an excellent sale of good act claim against the selling dealer, not Porsche UK. Once they realise they are in for £50k they should pull their fingers out....
hope this works out for the OP ok...
threads like this make me worry about my own 2006 cayman S... have the OPC extended warranty and sounds like i need to continue with it for peace of mind! not sure i like that though... clearly my perception of the reliability and brand isn't all it's cracked up to be
threads like this make me worry about my own 2006 cayman S... have the OPC extended warranty and sounds like i need to continue with it for peace of mind! not sure i like that though... clearly my perception of the reliability and brand isn't all it's cracked up to be
Good point.
I'm not saying go in all guns blazing, lawyered up, just make sure you fully understand your options.
I personally wouldn't want to engage in discussions regarding boroscopes etc. it's really not your problem.
As pointed out earlier in the thread, a chap with a 996 was successful at county court level - there is not a district judge in the land that would say 3 years / 10k is an acceptable life expectancy for a premium car engine.
I'm not saying go in all guns blazing, lawyered up, just make sure you fully understand your options.
I personally wouldn't want to engage in discussions regarding boroscopes etc. it's really not your problem.
As pointed out earlier in the thread, a chap with a 996 was successful at county court level - there is not a district judge in the land that would say 3 years / 10k is an acceptable life expectancy for a premium car engine.
I will try and dig out the link for the guy who had a C4S engine fail at a much higher mileage (120000 i think). He had the engine stripped down by a Porsche specialist and the failure was found to be down to a manufacturing defect.
The guy had to pay for a new engine and got his vehicle back on the road, then sued Porsche (after being more than fair intially) with the engineers report with the facts from the faulty engine strip down.
If Porsche wont play fairly then i would be tempted to take your car upto somewhere like Hartech, get the engine stripped down, get the FACTS of what has caused this problem, then present them to Porsche and ask them what they are going to do about it. Or get Hartech to repair the vehicle and then recoup your losses.
10k miles with no compression on cylinder 6 is not satisfactory or normal, i think you need some good legal advice, establish the facts and present them to Porsche, i cannot see how they have a leg to stand on.
The guy had to pay for a new engine and got his vehicle back on the road, then sued Porsche (after being more than fair intially) with the engineers report with the facts from the faulty engine strip down.
If Porsche wont play fairly then i would be tempted to take your car upto somewhere like Hartech, get the engine stripped down, get the FACTS of what has caused this problem, then present them to Porsche and ask them what they are going to do about it. Or get Hartech to repair the vehicle and then recoup your losses.
10k miles with no compression on cylinder 6 is not satisfactory or normal, i think you need some good legal advice, establish the facts and present them to Porsche, i cannot see how they have a leg to stand on.
Debs, it's been mentioned briefly but I'm not sure it would have been clear enough if it's not something you're familiar with - did you know Porsches log engine over-revs? It doesn't sound like the OPC have mentioned it yet, so I think you should ask them for a "DME printout" showing rev range ingitions.
There are various ranges (6 I think) - a search of this forum should reveal the actual rpm figures for each range - and the number of ignitions in each rev range is recorded, together with the engine hours at the time of the last occurence. The reason for these ranges is to record if an engine has been what's known in racing as "buzzed" - mechanically over-revved i.e. a missed shift (e.g. 5th down to 2nd rather than 4th), and to what degree i.e. up to range 3 or 4, which is only just over the redline, then it's almost acceptable, if it's range 1 (hitting the redline) then it's fine, if it's range 6 then it's gone beyond 9,000rpm (or whatever the figure is).
You need to know the figures for your car before much else happens, or at least get (written) confirmation that there is no cause for concern regarding the data - otherwise they may wait until the engine's out and stripped before telling you you're getting no help because they think it was over-revved. Given your background it seems unlikey you'll have anything to worry about, but you need to be certain really.
There have also been cases of slightly odd data on which the OPC's tried to decline claims or warranty cover - these were clearly software glitches to anyone with a modicum of common sense and a calculator but that was beyond the OPC, who needed it explaining to them.
Oh, and I'll leave it to Baz to decide if he wants to disclose how many engines they've done but having been there a number of times and seen what they do, it's clearly a lot more than 60. When I'm there I'm normally in Baz's office or the workshop...and there's plenty of staff I rarely see as they're ensconced in the separate engine workshops - think of it like all the engine-elves (for God's sake no-one tell them I called them that!) enthusiastically ferreting away in bunkers, occasionally being fed mugs of tea. There's certainly always enough work to keep them busy.
There are various ranges (6 I think) - a search of this forum should reveal the actual rpm figures for each range - and the number of ignitions in each rev range is recorded, together with the engine hours at the time of the last occurence. The reason for these ranges is to record if an engine has been what's known in racing as "buzzed" - mechanically over-revved i.e. a missed shift (e.g. 5th down to 2nd rather than 4th), and to what degree i.e. up to range 3 or 4, which is only just over the redline, then it's almost acceptable, if it's range 1 (hitting the redline) then it's fine, if it's range 6 then it's gone beyond 9,000rpm (or whatever the figure is).
You need to know the figures for your car before much else happens, or at least get (written) confirmation that there is no cause for concern regarding the data - otherwise they may wait until the engine's out and stripped before telling you you're getting no help because they think it was over-revved. Given your background it seems unlikey you'll have anything to worry about, but you need to be certain really.
There have also been cases of slightly odd data on which the OPC's tried to decline claims or warranty cover - these were clearly software glitches to anyone with a modicum of common sense and a calculator but that was beyond the OPC, who needed it explaining to them.
Oh, and I'll leave it to Baz to decide if he wants to disclose how many engines they've done but having been there a number of times and seen what they do, it's clearly a lot more than 60. When I'm there I'm normally in Baz's office or the workshop...and there's plenty of staff I rarely see as they're ensconced in the separate engine workshops - think of it like all the engine-elves (for God's sake no-one tell them I called them that!) enthusiastically ferreting away in bunkers, occasionally being fed mugs of tea. There's certainly always enough work to keep them busy.
so as I understand it the current situation for the op is :
The engine is being stripped at the OPC s expense(or does the op only not have to pay "up front"?. This needs clarifying , in writing / e mail)
The OPC is arranging a suitable courtesy car, which again is at the OPC s expense
Given that they didn t actually have to do either of the above I reckon the OP is well down the road to Porsche picking up the whole bill here. keep the pressure on in a firm but fair way & fingers crossed it will end this way.
The OPC route will likely be a new engine ,which I ve always understood comes with a 2 year warranty.?-if that s correct then there is no need to spend more money on the extended warranty
If the Op wants out, then at least she s selling a car with a new engine with a 2 year warranty - some buyers might be put off but many would see it as a bonus -
Personally, after 15 years of Porsches I sold my 996 4S when they changed the extended warranty T's & C's -nothing wrong with the car,it was a good un!! but I just couldnt stomach the way Porsche treats its customers.
The engine is being stripped at the OPC s expense(or does the op only not have to pay "up front"?. This needs clarifying , in writing / e mail)
The OPC is arranging a suitable courtesy car, which again is at the OPC s expense
Given that they didn t actually have to do either of the above I reckon the OP is well down the road to Porsche picking up the whole bill here. keep the pressure on in a firm but fair way & fingers crossed it will end this way.
The OPC route will likely be a new engine ,which I ve always understood comes with a 2 year warranty.?-if that s correct then there is no need to spend more money on the extended warranty
If the Op wants out, then at least she s selling a car with a new engine with a 2 year warranty - some buyers might be put off but many would see it as a bonus -
Personally, after 15 years of Porsches I sold my 996 4S when they changed the extended warranty T's & C's -nothing wrong with the car,it was a good un!! but I just couldnt stomach the way Porsche treats its customers.
The Goose posted: There are various ranges (6 I think) - a search of this forum should reveal the actual rpm figures for each range - and the number of ignitions in each rev range is recorded, together with the engine hours at the time of the last occurence. The reason for these ranges is to record if an engine has been what's known in racing as "buzzed" - mechanically over-revved i.e. a missed shift (e.g. 5th down to 2nd rather than 4th), and to what degree i.e. up to range 3 or 4, which is only just over the redline, then it's almost acceptable, if it's range 1 (hitting the redline) then it's fine, if it's range 6 then it's gone beyond 9,000rpm (or whatever the figure is).
Can you explain that paragraph in 'Windows for Dummies' fashion please ... I'm a bit lost!!
When I go down the box, I match the engine speed with a blip on the gas (it's the way I was taught) and block change gears. When comming to a stop, I stop in the gear I was previously in (i.e. I don't go down through the box) without allowing the engine to 'judder'.
Can't remember the last time I red lined it although I have a couple of times without realising until it happened. It definately hasn't been 'buzzed'. I was taught to drive to an advanced level at the Driving Wing, Hendon and even at level 3 and 4, the 'system of car control' as dictated by Road Craft is still the same. Advanced level is just a progression from levels 3 and 4.
I'm embarrassed to say I've even stalled a couple of times but who hasn't !!
Maybe I'm worrying unnecessarily about the engine rev thing but I'm thinking of my pocket and all the cash that may be leaving it soon ...
Can you explain that paragraph in 'Windows for Dummies' fashion please ... I'm a bit lost!!
When I go down the box, I match the engine speed with a blip on the gas (it's the way I was taught) and block change gears. When comming to a stop, I stop in the gear I was previously in (i.e. I don't go down through the box) without allowing the engine to 'judder'.
Can't remember the last time I red lined it although I have a couple of times without realising until it happened. It definately hasn't been 'buzzed'. I was taught to drive to an advanced level at the Driving Wing, Hendon and even at level 3 and 4, the 'system of car control' as dictated by Road Craft is still the same. Advanced level is just a progression from levels 3 and 4.
I'm embarrassed to say I've even stalled a couple of times but who hasn't !!
Maybe I'm worrying unnecessarily about the engine rev thing but I'm thinking of my pocket and all the cash that may be leaving it soon ...
Edited by DebsBell on Thursday 31st May 00:22
DebsBell said:
Maybe I'm worrying unnecessarily about the engine rev thing but I'm thinking of my pocket and all the cash that may be leaving it soon ...
In a nutshell the car records if you make a bad downshift which forces the engine past its rev-limiter; for example accidentally going from 5th to 2nd gear at speed, rather than from 5th to 4th gear.Sorry but picked up on this a bit late and don't have time to study it all - but it would be unusual to have absolutely no compression unless a valve is bent or burnt or a seat is loose.
This could indeed be caused by changing down too soon and over revving the engine.
However if it is a scored piston and cylinder - revs do not cause that as there is little power at high revs and the thrust on the piston face is very low. Scoring is caused more by low speed high piston face loads - caused by lots of low revs high torque driving.
It is a shame that they need to strip it when you don't yet know the outcome or implications for cost.
At least if a good independent had it you would know it would cost a lot less whatever the problem was.
You seem to be stuck in an unenviable position in which you need to let them inspect it first and then are stuck with whatever they decide to do next and the associated costs.
Good luck.
Baz
This could indeed be caused by changing down too soon and over revving the engine.
However if it is a scored piston and cylinder - revs do not cause that as there is little power at high revs and the thrust on the piston face is very low. Scoring is caused more by low speed high piston face loads - caused by lots of low revs high torque driving.
It is a shame that they need to strip it when you don't yet know the outcome or implications for cost.
At least if a good independent had it you would know it would cost a lot less whatever the problem was.
You seem to be stuck in an unenviable position in which you need to let them inspect it first and then are stuck with whatever they decide to do next and the associated costs.
Good luck.
Baz
DebsBell said:
Can you explain that paragraph in 'Windows for Dummies' fashion please ... I'm a bit lost!![/footnote]
I think you've understood it fine, the point is you need confirmation from the OPC that there is no data in the car's logs (in the DME) that causes them any concern. I did says it's unlikely anything will be amiss given your background & expertise but the OPC will be dealing with the black & white facts & figures. It's basically something you need to be sure is eliminated as a possible cause.Hitting the rev limiter is a Range 1, which is fine and I'd be surprised if there weren't any if the car's been driven enthusiastically.
If they do have any concern over the data, you need the actual figures & share them with us for further feedback - there have been cases of over-revs being stored that were clearly software glitches (I.e. What the data indicated could not ever have actually happened), but the OPC were too hard-of-thinking to realise. The PH massive however, used a little logic and the owner could then go back & explain it to them.
Guys, thanks for that.
I don't think I've ever gone from 5th to 2nd 'acidentally' and caused the engine to over rev in any car I've owned over the last 11 years!! Before that ... probably but certainly not with the Cayman.
I work in the London area and traffic is pants with queues and roundabouts and traffic lights etc. There's been a lot of 'slow moving' due to the congestion. I treat my car with 'kid gloves' as it's my baby!! No harsh acceleration and always within the rev ranges so I now feel a lot more confident that when the DME printout is done, they wont find anything untoward.
Will keep you posted on progress
Debs
I don't think I've ever gone from 5th to 2nd 'acidentally' and caused the engine to over rev in any car I've owned over the last 11 years!! Before that ... probably but certainly not with the Cayman.
I work in the London area and traffic is pants with queues and roundabouts and traffic lights etc. There's been a lot of 'slow moving' due to the congestion. I treat my car with 'kid gloves' as it's my baby!! No harsh acceleration and always within the rev ranges so I now feel a lot more confident that when the DME printout is done, they wont find anything untoward.
Will keep you posted on progress
Debs
DaveWn said:
so as I understand it the current situation for the op is :
The engine is being stripped at the OPC s expense(or does the op only not have to pay "up front"?. This needs clarifying , in writing / e mail)
No I think that's not the case. The OPC is expecting the OP to stump up.The engine is being stripped at the OPC s expense(or does the op only not have to pay "up front"?. This needs clarifying , in writing / e mail)
Bert
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