Tenants, damage and Small claims court

[mondeoman]

Following on from this thread we've started a Fast-Track case against the tenants and I need to provide a list of documents for the court (standard disclosure).

To recap: Tenant taking on through letting agent in 2008, after two years sacked the agent (2010) and let direct to the tenant using a contract sourced from riky.co.uk which was signed by me but not by the tenant.
Tenant moved out in Oct 11, left unclean houes, damage and rubbish and unpaid rent. Tenenat left the property part way through the moving out inspection as soon as we said we weren't going to be returning the deposit so we couldn't finalsie it with them in attendance.
DPS wouldn't entertain us retaining the deposit as we couldn't provide the original schedule nor a signed contract. Total claim is in excess of £6k with court costs.

We now have a copy of the original letting agents signed contract, together with a copy of the original moving in schedule.

So my list of docs will be:

original signed contract
original schedule
revised contrat - not sure if this should be included?
transcript of text from tenant advising of leaving date
transcript of text from me advising acceptance
email from me stating reasons for retaining the deposit
copy of final inspection report, including supporting photos
emails from the tenants saying we should give them the deposit back
DPS claim form and supporting documents
DPS final decision
Copy of Letter Before Action to the tenant
Statement of claim for the Small Claims court
Tenants defence statement

Standard disclosure statement

Two questions:
1/ Have I missed anything?
2/ What are the odds of getting a result?

Cheers

[10 Pence Short]

If the value is greater than £5000, don't both sides have to agree to put it through the Small Claims track? There would be potential costs implications if you were to lose in that event, too.

[mondeoman]

10 Pence Short said:

If the value is greater than £5000, don't both sides have to agree to put it through the Small Claims track? There would be potential costs implications if you were to lose in that event, too.

The court decided to put it through on Fast-track, next level up from small claims.

I'm out £450 in court costs already, with another £650 to find by September, then its just waiting for the final hearing in November (scheduled for 3 hours). Good money after bad? Maybe, but with the contract(s) and schedules and supporting photos I feel I've got a strong case. My concern is whether or not there is a legal contract, given that we binned the letting agent and the tenant didn't sign the new contract.

Does the old contract then follow on?

[10 Pence Short]

Sorry, for some reason I read 'small claim' at the top of your post- my mistake!

[sinizter]

mondeoman said:

Does the old contract then follow on?

Not sure, but after the first fixed term it just becomes a rolling contract with 1 month notice required from tenant side and 2 months notice from landlord side to terminate, I think.

[10 Pence Short]

mondeoman said:

he court decided to put it through on Fast-track, next level up from small claims.

I'm out £450 in court costs already, with another £650 to find by September, then its just waiting for the final hearing in November (scheduled for 3 hours). Good money after bad? Maybe, but with the contract(s) and schedules and supporting photos I feel I've got a strong case. My concern is whether or not there is a legal contract, given that we binned the letting agent and the tenant didn't sign the new contract.

Does the old contract then follow on?

Why didn't the tenant sign the new contract?

[mondeoman]

sinizter said:

mondeoman said:

Does the old contract then follow on?

Not sure, but after the first fixed term it just becomes a rolling contract with 1 month notice required from tenant side and 2 months notice from landlord side to terminate, I think.

Yeah, thats normal. The original contract deposit was returned when the agents were binned, and I set up the new deposit with the DPS but iirc a contract needs an offer, an acceptance and a consideration: we offered a new contract and by paying the rent for a further 2 years, did they then accept the new contract?

[mondeoman]

10 Pence Short said:

Why didn't the tenant sign the new contract?

My fault - gave them two signed copies, never went back to collect their signed copy

[10 Pence Short]

Do you have any communications from them accepting the contract (ie. text message from them with "yep, looks ok" on it or anything like that)?

What does your legal advice say?

[RBOnline]

Without a signed tenancy agreement between them and you, you haven't got a leg to stand on, have you?

How is the old tenancy agreement at all relevant (in legal terms I mean)?

[mondeoman]

10 Pence Short said:

Do you have any communications from them accepting the contract (ie. text message from them with "yep, looks ok" on it or anything like that)?

What does your legal advice say?

Nothing at all, except that they paid the rent into my account for two years

Legal advice? Whats that?? Thats what PH is for, shirly?

[mondeoman]

RBOnline said:

Without a signed tenancy agreement between them and you, you haven't got a leg to stand on, have you?

How is the old tenancy agreement at all relevant (in legal terms I mean)?

Thats what I'm trying to find out

[10 Pence Short]

mondeoman said:

Nothing at all, except that they paid the rent into my account for two years

Legal advice? Whats that?? Thats what PH is for, shirly?

If the old contract ended some time in 2010 and they moved out, owing rent, in October 2011, I can't see that they were paying you for 2 years under the new contract.

[JumboBeef]

As hard as this is, I would forget it and move on.

I think you will be throwing good money after bad.

[mondeoman]

10 Pence Short said:

If the old contract ended some time in 2010 and they moved out, owing rent, in October 2011, I can't see that they were paying you for 2 years under the new contract.

Just spoke to my friendly solicitor, she says that the legal arguement is that the original tenancy didn't end until Oct 2011, even though the letting agents were taken out of the game, and as the tenants didn't sign the new contract, then the old one applies.

[Davel]

JumboBeef said:

As hard as this is, I would forget it and move on.

I think you will be throwing good money after bad.

I suspect that this will be the case.

If you do win, does the Tenant have the cash to meet this? The Courts won't award what the Tenant can't pay sadly.

[RBOnline]

mondeoman said:

Just spoke to my friendly solicitor, she says that the legal arguement is that the original tenancy didn't end until Oct 2011, even though the letting agents were taken out of the game, and as the tenants didn't sign the new contract, then the old one applies.

How would the old one apply? It's between the tenant and the letting agency. Not the tenant and the OP.

[10 Pence Short]

We let through an agency, but our contract is with the owner of the property, not the agent.

[mondeoman]

10 Pence Short said:

We let through an agency, but our contract is with the owner of the property, not the agent.

Thats what the original contract implies: the agreement is between the landlord and tenant, the agent is merely the agent for the landlord, not a substantive party to the contract.

[mrmr96]

RBOnline said:

How would the old one apply? It's between the tenant and the letting agency. Not the tenant and the OP.

The clue is in the name, "Agent".