Flippin'heck..this'll ruin your day!
Discussion
With the benefit of hindsight (and I'm not criticising or saying I could have avoided that - I probably couldn't)...But I must say the last thing I would be doing in that emerging situation is talking about the theft of steak...WTF???
Alarm bells would be ringing and my thoughts would immediately be focused on the clear and present danger ahead. The fact he kept on talking tells me he didn't really see the danger. I am always subconsciously aware that any vehicle wanting to cross my path, could do just that. Subconsciously covering the brake and planning my potential escape route has saved me so many times in exactly that situation. As said above, learning how to quickly flick the bike (and not necessarily panic brake) can be a life saver.
Every biker should watch that video, becasue if you haven't been in exactly that situation yet, you're lucky, but you will do one day.
The problem with bikes and headlights (assuming he was using dipped beam like most of us do), is that the bobbing up and down over bumps can sometimes be mistaken for a flash to pass - I suspect this may have been the case here?
Alarm bells would be ringing and my thoughts would immediately be focused on the clear and present danger ahead. The fact he kept on talking tells me he didn't really see the danger. I am always subconsciously aware that any vehicle wanting to cross my path, could do just that. Subconsciously covering the brake and planning my potential escape route has saved me so many times in exactly that situation. As said above, learning how to quickly flick the bike (and not necessarily panic brake) can be a life saver.
Every biker should watch that video, becasue if you haven't been in exactly that situation yet, you're lucky, but you will do one day.
The problem with bikes and headlights (assuming he was using dipped beam like most of us do), is that the bobbing up and down over bumps can sometimes be mistaken for a flash to pass - I suspect this may have been the case here?
Not sure about all this commentary, its easy to pass judgement, but anyone that thinks he would have slowed down to sub 20mph in that situation is lying to himself - you would be taken out by everyone behind you too. Do this in London and you going to be parked all day.
To be honest, that is exactly what would have happened to me. Right up until the last second, it seemed the truck was waiting for him. I'd have slowed down coming round the bend, and would have been satisfied everyone saw me in that circumstance, and dare I say I may even have got on the throttle a little. Just being honest. But this video serves as a warning for me, to not take this for granted.
Dr Doofenshmirtz said:
Alarm bells would be ringing and my thoughts would immediately be focused on the clear and present danger ahead. The fact he kept on talking tells me he didn't really see the danger. I am always subconsciously aware that any vehicle wanting to cross my path, could do just that. Subconsciously covering the brake and planning my potential escape route has saved me so many times in exactly that situation.
Indeed, which is basically the point I've been trying to make.Recognising that there is a hazard, devoting attention to it and being prepared to stop or escape/evade if necessary is of massive benefit in such situations. In most instances no action will be needed.
travelling around a tree-lined bend and then riding between two lorries that are intending to cross your path from two different directions? It's not an ideal situation. If one doesn't hit you the other might.
Yes, the lorry driver was at fault, but a lorry driver sat high up in a 20 tonne lorry hitting 250kg of bike and biker has a lot less pain/injury at stake than the motorcyclist. Personally, I'd rather be healthy than knowing that I was "in the right".
These can be useful:
Edited by MC Bodge on Wednesday 5th September 11:28
I'd have slowed right down the instant I saw that situation (as someone said earlier - spidey senses tingling at maximum - the instant I saw that in the vid, I felt my internal biker danger warning flashed heavily). The red truck on the left by itself would have slowed me down, moved out to the middle and covered my front brake. The black truck on the right had clearly stopped prior to seeing me - I wait until I can see the driver make eye contact with me before assuming it's safe in a situation like that. Throw in two massive vehicles restricting my options on where I can go on the road, with both of them potentially about to pull out in front of me and I'm going to practically crawl past them both.
If the guy was commentating then he wasn't paying full attention - I rode around with my headphones on once, and will never do it again. Totally distracting, and after 20+ years of bike riding, I know I need to be totally focused all the time, and to assume that everyone is a blind idiot wanting to kill me. As much as I enjoy the Baron Von Grumble videos, riding like he does through heavy traffic in central London while delivering a constant stream of amusing commentary does not bode well for his longevity, IMO.
If the guy was commentating then he wasn't paying full attention - I rode around with my headphones on once, and will never do it again. Totally distracting, and after 20+ years of bike riding, I know I need to be totally focused all the time, and to assume that everyone is a blind idiot wanting to kill me. As much as I enjoy the Baron Von Grumble videos, riding like he does through heavy traffic in central London while delivering a constant stream of amusing commentary does not bode well for his longevity, IMO.
Seeing 2 lorries like that would have made me slow down to a snail’s pace! Although my attention would have been more on the red lorry on the left pulling straight out in front of me. The guy in the video didn’t look to alter his speed at all. I don’t have any sound on here but he didn’t look to brake hard or anything? It was totally the lorries fault but when there is an inherent danger like that in front if you with plenty of time to spot what is going on, although I may not have evaded an accident there, I certainly wouldn’t have been hitting that section at those speeds (I’m guessing he was doing about 45mph). The wet patches in the road would have made me slow too.
Edited by muon on Wednesday 5th September 12:03
You have to be superhuman to ride a bike with all the stuff that can go wrong these days.
Anticipation, observation, concentration, attention. Use all that stuff to control your bike, your environment & what can hurt you.
Like others I'm not convinced the rider was fully "on the case" at a junction like that whilst rabbiting into his mike.
One thing I notice from Baron Von Grumble's vids is that at least he picks up & comments on other road users wayward antics before becoming a statistic (well, except in N York maybe?)
Despite all that the lorry driver was a 100% knob & should get done+costs etc.
Ultimately it is kinda pointless rabbiting about blame after the event. Far, far better to avoid incidents.
Hope the rider has no lasting injuries.
Anticipation, observation, concentration, attention. Use all that stuff to control your bike, your environment & what can hurt you.
Like others I'm not convinced the rider was fully "on the case" at a junction like that whilst rabbiting into his mike.
One thing I notice from Baron Von Grumble's vids is that at least he picks up & comments on other road users wayward antics before becoming a statistic (well, except in N York maybe?)
Despite all that the lorry driver was a 100% knob & should get done+costs etc.
Ultimately it is kinda pointless rabbiting about blame after the event. Far, far better to avoid incidents.
Hope the rider has no lasting injuries.
Wow
That seemed to happen so fast. He would have barely had the time to react at his current speed and the distance he was away before the lorry made its move.
As others have stated the obvious, he could have gone into the situation much slower. Hindsight is great but every time you see a lorry or any vehicle at a junction for that matter, should you slow down to a complete crawl just in case. Yes, you reduce your speed, I certainly do and treat every situation as a possible accident waitign to happen. As others have said, I look to make contact with their eyes to see if they have 'clocked me'.
However, at what point do you draw the line as to how slow you approach this situation. Even if he had gone even slower, say about 20 MPH as some have said, would he still have been able to avoid the situation still? Maybe, maybe not.
That seemed to happen so fast. He would have barely had the time to react at his current speed and the distance he was away before the lorry made its move.
As others have stated the obvious, he could have gone into the situation much slower. Hindsight is great but every time you see a lorry or any vehicle at a junction for that matter, should you slow down to a complete crawl just in case. Yes, you reduce your speed, I certainly do and treat every situation as a possible accident waitign to happen. As others have said, I look to make contact with their eyes to see if they have 'clocked me'.
However, at what point do you draw the line as to how slow you approach this situation. Even if he had gone even slower, say about 20 MPH as some have said, would he still have been able to avoid the situation still? Maybe, maybe not.
Killboy said:
Not sure about all this commentary, its easy to pass judgement, but anyone that thinks he would have slowed down to sub 20mph in that situation is lying to himself - you would be taken out by everyone behind you too. Do this in London and you going to be parked all day.
To be honest, that is exactly what would have happened to me. Right up until the last second, it seemed the truck was waiting for him. I'd have slowed down coming round the bend, and would have been satisfied everyone saw me in that circumstance, and dare I say I may even have got on the throttle a little. Just being honest. But this video serves as a warning for me, to not take this for granted.
There is a difference between doing a running commentary on your ride (as per the police video above), and talking complete nonsense. This bloke paid the price for the sake of a silly YouTube video collection (maybe).
the black truck, clearly, is in the wrong there but the guy on camera is yacking away about some nonsense (mind not 100% on the task in hand) and seemingly not covering his brakes in anticipation of this exact event happening.
The road junction with 2 x hgvs potentially about to travel in 2 x different directions across me would certainly make me slow down A LOT more A LOT earlier just in case...
The video auto-pausing to read the text boxes, and his waffling on about how he had seen this and anticipated that and had been on xyz rider courses just seems to whiff of someone potesting too much about their innocence.
Either that or the guy is just an inexperienced rider when it comes to dealing with heavy traffic situations - a good example of how most accidents are a culmination of events from a number of factors which if more care was taken BY EVERYONE could possibly have been avoided
The road junction with 2 x hgvs potentially about to travel in 2 x different directions across me would certainly make me slow down A LOT more A LOT earlier just in case...
The video auto-pausing to read the text boxes, and his waffling on about how he had seen this and anticipated that and had been on xyz rider courses just seems to whiff of someone potesting too much about their innocence.
Either that or the guy is just an inexperienced rider when it comes to dealing with heavy traffic situations - a good example of how most accidents are a culmination of events from a number of factors which if more care was taken BY EVERYONE could possibly have been avoided
I would liken it to holding a conversation on a hands free mobile phone.
Your hands are free but your mind is dealing with speaking AS WELL as doing the constant risk assesment that is proper motorcycle riding.
It doesnt take a genius to realise that NOT TALKING allows you to concentrate harder on the task in hand.
You only have so much "processor" power in your brain, the more tasks you give it, the slower it works or the more tasks its stops doing.
Your hands are free but your mind is dealing with speaking AS WELL as doing the constant risk assesment that is proper motorcycle riding.
It doesnt take a genius to realise that NOT TALKING allows you to concentrate harder on the task in hand.
You only have so much "processor" power in your brain, the more tasks you give it, the slower it works or the more tasks its stops doing.
hman said:
I would liken it to holding a conversation on a hands free mobile phone.
Your hands are free but your mind is dealing with speaking AS WELL as doing the constant risk assesment that is proper motorcycle riding.
It doesnt take a genius to realise that NOT TALKING allows you to concentrate harder on the task in hand.
You only have so much "processor" power in your brain, the more tasks you give it, the slower it works or the more tasks its stops doing.
Yes, however, in this situation at what point would concentrating more have helped? The truck pulled out when he was at most 10 meters away. From the looks of it, he was travelling at about 30mph, if not faster (well under the legal limit there). At 30mph, it takes about 23 meters to stop, or 6 car lengths. I guess one could argue he could have turned, although I'm not 100% sure he could of and he would have likely have hit the red truck then anyway. His reactions on the brakes seems to be pretty quick.Your hands are free but your mind is dealing with speaking AS WELL as doing the constant risk assesment that is proper motorcycle riding.
It doesnt take a genius to realise that NOT TALKING allows you to concentrate harder on the task in hand.
You only have so much "processor" power in your brain, the more tasks you give it, the slower it works or the more tasks its stops doing.
Like I said, easy to criticize. Personally, I don't think in this case chatting to the camera had any bearing on the outcome of this. Its still not wise, as you may not be aware of other things around you.
Do you not think then that "shutting down" the jabber might just have given him the extra 5 or 10% concentration to have anticipated that a stationary truck might just be waiting to make a right turn across him ?
It's not a question of how close he was to the truck when it turned, more how far away was it when he first saw it waiting to turn right.
The extra second or so might possibly have given him time to knock off sufficient speed to either stop completely or even take an escape move into the junction?
Possibly ?
It's not a question of how close he was to the truck when it turned, more how far away was it when he first saw it waiting to turn right.
The extra second or so might possibly have given him time to knock off sufficient speed to either stop completely or even take an escape move into the junction?
Possibly ?
sprinter1050 said:
It's not a question of how close he was to the truck when it turned, more how far away was it when he first saw it waiting to turn right.
I think he first saw it waiting to turn right when he rounded the corner, the red truck through the trees. It seemed to wait for a decent amount of time before setting off.Pointless argument really. It happened, although I don't think a 5-10% increase in reaction would have changed the outcome, and was certainly not the cause of the accident.
Killboy said:
sprinter1050 said:
It's not a question of how close he was to the truck when it turned, more how far away was it when he first saw it waiting to turn right.
Pointless argument really. It happened, although I don't think a 5-10% increase in reaction would have changed the outcome, and was certainly not the cause of the accident.Not 5-10% in reaction perhaps but improved concentration & a defensive frame of mind might have helped the outcome in the rider's favour. Agreed though on that NOT being the cause. We may differ on whether it was avoidable or at best an alterable outcome.
I am somewhat surprised at some of the comments in this thread about this accident being virtually unavoidable and the rider being at the mercy of other road users.
I posted my first ever post in this thread and I assumed that I was preaching to the converted ie. enthusiast bikers who were already aware of the need for defensive riding on the road, and that those without much experience would be continually striving to improve their riding skills (as we all should be).
I live in London and have been riding for about thirty years - commuting almost every day in heavy London traffic and doing lots of weekend runs for fun etc. I come across situations similar to this on a daily basis and I am certain that this rider could have done a great deal more to avoid this.
Leaving aside the running commentary, which is not a good idea when all one's concentration and focus are required to be looking out for hazards, I would have begun to roll off the throttle as soon as the junction came into view. As other posters have commented, the situation was risky enough if only one of the trucks would have been waiting at the junction, but with two any escape routes are effectively cut off.
If one decelerates gradually then this would reduce the risk of traffic colliding from the rear (as opposed to braking hard a bit closer to the junction).
As I stated in my previous post, I would not be happy proceeding into the situation depicting in the video at a speed of much more than 20mph and that is what I would have done here. I'm not sure much braking would have been required if he had rolled off the throttle early enough. I would also have made a slight deviation of my line as I find this helps drivers spot a bike's headlight ie. then it is not only getting larger as it approaches but also makes a small sideways movement that helps the eye pick it up. (There have been some studies done into this effect but don't ask me to quote them!).
I would have tried to make eye contact with the driver of the black truck and covered my brake.
In that situation I think the black truck would have picked me up and not made the turn. We have a lot more ability to affect what other drivers do than we think we have. I might have given a quick toot of the horn about 15-20 yards before I would have reached the black truck. If he had pulled out regardless then I would either have been able to stop or, if not, the resulting collision would have been far less severe.
I fully appreciate that some situations are unavoidable but we must do all we can to reduce these freak events to a bare minimum.
I know that the above might sound a bit ridiculous to some and all the actions I have detailed make it sound like too much hard work and too much analysis required but this is not the case. I ride a 954 Fireblade very hard indeed and what attracts me to biking is the adenalin rush, speed, freedom etc. It's just that the actions I would have taken are second nature to me and would have been performed in a smooth progression ie. notice hazard, check rear mirrors, roll off, slight sideways deviation, fingers covering brake, little toot and accelerate away once clear of the red truck.
I am only trying to pass on valuable information gained through many years of riding experience. Those who wish to ignore it will continue on their merry way and may have luck on their side, but if one person is able to avoid hitting a truck as a result of reading this then my post will have served its purpose.
I posted my first ever post in this thread and I assumed that I was preaching to the converted ie. enthusiast bikers who were already aware of the need for defensive riding on the road, and that those without much experience would be continually striving to improve their riding skills (as we all should be).
I live in London and have been riding for about thirty years - commuting almost every day in heavy London traffic and doing lots of weekend runs for fun etc. I come across situations similar to this on a daily basis and I am certain that this rider could have done a great deal more to avoid this.
Leaving aside the running commentary, which is not a good idea when all one's concentration and focus are required to be looking out for hazards, I would have begun to roll off the throttle as soon as the junction came into view. As other posters have commented, the situation was risky enough if only one of the trucks would have been waiting at the junction, but with two any escape routes are effectively cut off.
If one decelerates gradually then this would reduce the risk of traffic colliding from the rear (as opposed to braking hard a bit closer to the junction).
As I stated in my previous post, I would not be happy proceeding into the situation depicting in the video at a speed of much more than 20mph and that is what I would have done here. I'm not sure much braking would have been required if he had rolled off the throttle early enough. I would also have made a slight deviation of my line as I find this helps drivers spot a bike's headlight ie. then it is not only getting larger as it approaches but also makes a small sideways movement that helps the eye pick it up. (There have been some studies done into this effect but don't ask me to quote them!).
I would have tried to make eye contact with the driver of the black truck and covered my brake.
In that situation I think the black truck would have picked me up and not made the turn. We have a lot more ability to affect what other drivers do than we think we have. I might have given a quick toot of the horn about 15-20 yards before I would have reached the black truck. If he had pulled out regardless then I would either have been able to stop or, if not, the resulting collision would have been far less severe.
I fully appreciate that some situations are unavoidable but we must do all we can to reduce these freak events to a bare minimum.
I know that the above might sound a bit ridiculous to some and all the actions I have detailed make it sound like too much hard work and too much analysis required but this is not the case. I ride a 954 Fireblade very hard indeed and what attracts me to biking is the adenalin rush, speed, freedom etc. It's just that the actions I would have taken are second nature to me and would have been performed in a smooth progression ie. notice hazard, check rear mirrors, roll off, slight sideways deviation, fingers covering brake, little toot and accelerate away once clear of the red truck.
I am only trying to pass on valuable information gained through many years of riding experience. Those who wish to ignore it will continue on their merry way and may have luck on their side, but if one person is able to avoid hitting a truck as a result of reading this then my post will have served its purpose.
Edited by FazerBoy on Thursday 6th September 01:12
Busa mav said:
Hindsight isnt everything , it is foresight you do not seem blessed with.
If you cannot see that the biker could have reacted differently to the dangers that were very obvious , rather than just go walking in to the trap , then you need to do some rethinking of your observational skills , please .
As I said , the truck driver was at fault , but that doesn't help you much when written on your tomb stone.
Nothing wrong with my observational skills - I've been riding 20 years and I've only written off three cars whilst doing it! If you cannot see that the biker could have reacted differently to the dangers that were very obvious , rather than just go walking in to the trap , then you need to do some rethinking of your observational skills , please .
As I said , the truck driver was at fault , but that doesn't help you much when written on your tomb stone.
My point is that hindsight is perfect, whereas foresight isn't.
Viewing this footage throws the mistakes into perfect relief, but I'm sure if we had footage of you riding we would see similar mistakes.
You deny this, because you think your riding is beyond reproach - I am indicating that wheras this is theoretically possible, it's highly unlikely.
FazerBoy said:
an excellent post
It strikes me that there are two distinct views on this thread:1 A fatalistic, passive, "it's other people's fault", "it couldn't be avoided", viewpoint -which may coincide with people being surprised by the incident.
2 An active, "defensive" viewpoint, not surprised and with thoughts about what a rider could do to mitigate the effects of such a situation.
I wonder how these views translate to rider behaviour on the road?
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