Exiting the EU - What are the cons?
Discussion
gumshoe said:
Erm, as was in the past and will be in the future, trading will be by agreement. It will be on both trading partner's terms, not on EU imposed terms.
In a B2B scenario this is correct. Less so when doing business with the Public SectorAs things currently stand, any EU public sector body from small town councils, district councils, police forces up to entire Governments are obliged to procure through the OJEU (Official Journal of the European Union). Tenders have to conform to a pan-European standard and any company based with the EU can tender for the work or order and their location must not be factored positively or negatively into the tender scoring process.
We can and have successfully tendered for work in places like Romania and Bulgaria through this system for work that you wouldn't normally consider 'exportable' (advertising services).
The EU is also a donor funding body and ploughs a lot of money into the European Neighbourhood region (such as the Caucus region) as this area comprise countries and states of dubious politics but ones that we really need 'onside'. The EU money that is thrown at these places is for major social infrastructure projects that require designing, building, etc and the money comes with the caveat of EU companies being given the lions share of the work. This is a sector worth billions of which the UK benefits from in no small part. Including my little empire!
djstevec said:
einsign said:
djstevec said:
And as usual all the sceptics myopically think the whole world will just fall over themselves to trade with us on our terms. It's either a fail of logic or they're being purposely obtuse.
Mass hysteria, and sheep like mentality, exactly the same as religion.PUWER is obsessively used by some who have a fasicnation for audit and also those who want to have as much petty power as possible
the manual handling ops regulations are widely ignored
StevieBee said:
gumshoe said:
Erm, as was in the past and will be in the future, trading will be by agreement. It will be on both trading partner's terms, not on EU imposed terms.
In a B2B scenario this is correct. Less so when doing business with the Public SectorAs things currently stand, any EU public sector body from small town councils, district councils, police forces up to entire Governments are obliged to procure through the OJEU (Official Journal of the European Union). Tenders have to conform to a pan-European standard and any company based with the EU can tender for the work or order and their location must not be factored positively or negatively into the tender scoring process.
We can and have successfully tendered for work in places like Romania and Bulgaria through this system for work that you wouldn't normally consider 'exportable' (advertising services).
The EU is also a donor funding body and ploughs a lot of money into the European Neighbourhood region (such as the Caucus region) as this area comprise countries and states of dubious politics but ones that we really need 'onside'. The EU money that is thrown at these places is for major social infrastructure projects that require designing, building, etc and the money comes with the caveat of EU companies being given the lions share of the work. This is a sector worth billions of which the UK benefits from in no small part. Including my little empire!
speedy_thrills said:
The staggering thing is how many people have an opinion on something they have so little understanding about.
thats right such complex issues are best left to the politicians, after all, they have our interests at heart right? no. infact what is really staggering is how little understanding your eu overlords have of such unimportant topics as basic macro economics and why some people expect us to bow down in deference to their 'expertise'. the people you have running that continent are a bunch of blithering fvckwits, who were invariably failures at the national level, promoted to keep the trough full for the next generation of eucrat morons. my sincere appologies for expressing an opinion however the economic performance of the eu compared to almost every other country or trade block on the planet would suggest i'm not entirely wrongCBI weighing in to the debate now, I think there will be a lot more pro-eu comments from business leaders in the lead up to any referendum.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/10062...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/10062...
CBI said:
In a speech to the British American Business Council, John Cridland will say demands for a Bill to underpin David Cameron’s promise of an in/out vote on Europe is an “unnecessary distraction” from the real issues affecting our economy.
“For those of us in the business world, it feels like a diversion from what we should be doing in Europe, which is restoring growth, through trade deals, and championing the reforms that we want to see,” Mr Cridland will claim.
“These issues matter to the public too because their primary concerns are about the economy, jobs, and the cost of living. So for business and the public, it’s economic growth that matters. Growth at home and abroad.”
Mr Cridland, who represents 240,000 UK businesses, believes this two-way growth can only be realised if the UK is a key part of Europe, not at the fringes like Norway.
“Norway’s membership of the European Economic Area [EEA] – being outside the EU but part of the Single Market – means it still pays the bills and follows the rules but has much lower influence on EU decision making than if it had a seat at the table.
“The Norwegian Conservative MP, Nikolai Astrup, said to my team: ‘If the UK wants to run Europe, it needs to be in Europe. If you want to be run by Europe, feel free to join us in the EEA.’”
Mr Cridland will warn that already struggling British companies may not survive without access to “our primary market”. These business need to trade with Europe and, subsequently, the rest of the world, he will add.
“We must maximise the potential of being part of the biggest market in the world - the EU single market - which remains the destination for nearly half our exports and will continue to be fundamental to our economy for many years to come.
“Demand for the goods and services which the UK is best at producing will continue to be greater in other highly developed economies. It’s not an either/or relationship - we need trade with Europe and the rest of the world. And that means retaining access to the Single Market.”
“For those of us in the business world, it feels like a diversion from what we should be doing in Europe, which is restoring growth, through trade deals, and championing the reforms that we want to see,” Mr Cridland will claim.
“These issues matter to the public too because their primary concerns are about the economy, jobs, and the cost of living. So for business and the public, it’s economic growth that matters. Growth at home and abroad.”
Mr Cridland, who represents 240,000 UK businesses, believes this two-way growth can only be realised if the UK is a key part of Europe, not at the fringes like Norway.
“Norway’s membership of the European Economic Area [EEA] – being outside the EU but part of the Single Market – means it still pays the bills and follows the rules but has much lower influence on EU decision making than if it had a seat at the table.
“The Norwegian Conservative MP, Nikolai Astrup, said to my team: ‘If the UK wants to run Europe, it needs to be in Europe. If you want to be run by Europe, feel free to join us in the EEA.’”
Mr Cridland will warn that already struggling British companies may not survive without access to “our primary market”. These business need to trade with Europe and, subsequently, the rest of the world, he will add.
“We must maximise the potential of being part of the biggest market in the world - the EU single market - which remains the destination for nearly half our exports and will continue to be fundamental to our economy for many years to come.
“Demand for the goods and services which the UK is best at producing will continue to be greater in other highly developed economies. It’s not an either/or relationship - we need trade with Europe and the rest of the world. And that means retaining access to the Single Market.”
fbrs said:
speedy_thrills said:
The staggering thing is how many people have an opinion on something they have so little understanding about.
thats right such complex issues are best left to the politicians, after all, they have our interests at heart right? no. infact what is really staggering is how little understanding your eu overlords have of such unimportant topics as basic macro economics and why some people expect us to bow down in deference to their 'expertise'. the people you have running that continent are a bunch of blithering fvckwits, who were invariably failures at the national level, promoted to keep the trough full for the next generation of eucrat morons. my sincere appologies for expressing an opinion however the economic performance of the eu compared to almost every other country or trade block on the planet would suggest i'm not entirely wrongeinsign said:
djstevec said:
Thankfully Im not religious and think for myself then. The sheep IMO are those lap up the simplistic and sensationalist media stories about "evil Brussels" and how theyre out to destroy us and our industry, yet apparently the EU is reliant upon a propserous UK to keep flogging BMWs and Mercs to.
Are you sure, the minority of people who actually know what they are talking about dont seem to be listened to, just shouted down all the time.Business leaders(across all sectors and industries), OpenEurope (eurosceptic leaning think tank), CBI (pro-business), politicians on all sides in UK and EU (meh), FT (quite capitalist newspaper), Economist (a business orientated periodical Ive heard), Telegraph (not exactly a leftie paper), EU stance on Switzerland (no more EU agreements), work colleagues I talk to everyday in our Frankfurt office (I work for a private asset manager so hardly the PH "lentil eating lefty brigade), where the average opinoin is they simply don't give a crap anymore if we leave, etc etc etc...or the same band of anti-Eu posters on PH?
Hmmm...tough choice. My personal preference is the re-negotiation the return of whatever regulation and decision making for business that we can back to the UK.
And with that I'm out. Tired of the circular argument, so feel free to interpret that as "HA...he's lost the argument" if u wish not fussed.
djstevec said:
Who's getting shouted down?? And who ACTUALLY knows what will happen and the impacts??
Business leaders(across all sectors and industries), OpenEurope (eurosceptic leaning think tank), CBI (pro-business), politicians on all sides in UK and EU (meh), FT (quite capitalist newspaper), Economist (a business orientated periodical Ive heard), Telegraph (not exactly a leftie paper), EU stance on Switzerland (no more EU agreements), work colleagues I talk to everyday in our Frankfurt office (I work for a private asset manager so hardly the PH "lentil eating lefty brigade), where the average opinoin is they simply don't give a crap anymore if we leave, etc etc etc...or the same band of anti-Eu posters on PH?
Hmmm...tough choice. My personal preference is the re-negotiation the return of whatever regulation and decision making for business that we can back to the UK.
And with that I'm out. Tired of the circular argument, so feel free to interpret that as "HA...he's lost the argument" if u wish not fussed.
To a great degree, I agree with you. Yes, it would be lovely if the UK could re-negotiate and return decision making powers. However, I am very sceptical that this will be possible, although I am willing to give it a go, and so ultimately I expect the negotiation to be futile and that therefore the UK must leave the EU. Business leaders(across all sectors and industries), OpenEurope (eurosceptic leaning think tank), CBI (pro-business), politicians on all sides in UK and EU (meh), FT (quite capitalist newspaper), Economist (a business orientated periodical Ive heard), Telegraph (not exactly a leftie paper), EU stance on Switzerland (no more EU agreements), work colleagues I talk to everyday in our Frankfurt office (I work for a private asset manager so hardly the PH "lentil eating lefty brigade), where the average opinoin is they simply don't give a crap anymore if we leave, etc etc etc...or the same band of anti-Eu posters on PH?
Hmmm...tough choice. My personal preference is the re-negotiation the return of whatever regulation and decision making for business that we can back to the UK.
And with that I'm out. Tired of the circular argument, so feel free to interpret that as "HA...he's lost the argument" if u wish not fussed.
However, with respect to your comments on the FT and Economist, I couldn't disagree more. We get free subscriptions to the FT with work, but I had to un-subscribe, as the leftist, blindly pro-EU, stance of the pink pages drove me mad. And the Economist isn't known as the "Ecommunist" for nothing.
djstevec said:
einsign said:
djstevec said:
Thankfully Im not religious and think for myself then. The sheep IMO are those lap up the simplistic and sensationalist media stories about "evil Brussels" and how theyre out to destroy us and our industry, yet apparently the EU is reliant upon a propserous UK to keep flogging BMWs and Mercs to.
Are you sure, the minority of people who actually know what they are talking about dont seem to be listened to, just shouted down all the time.Business leaders(across all sectors and industries), OpenEurope (eurosceptic leaning think tank), CBI (pro-business), politicians on all sides in UK and EU (meh), FT (quite capitalist newspaper), Economist (a business orientated periodical Ive heard), Telegraph (not exactly a leftie paper), EU stance on Switzerland (no more EU agreements), work colleagues I talk to everyday in our Frankfurt office (I work for a private asset manager so hardly the PH "lentil eating lefty brigade), where the average opinoin is they simply don't give a crap anymore if we leave, etc etc etc...or the same band of anti-Eu posters on PH?
Hmmm...tough choice. My personal preference is the re-negotiation the return of whatever regulation and decision making for business that we can back to the UK.
And with that I'm out. Tired of the circular argument, so feel free to interpret that as "HA...he's lost the argument" if u wish not fussed.
t every time.LETS RE-NEGOTIATE.... LETS RE-NEGOTIATE.... LETS RE-NEGOTIATE.... LETS RE-NEGOTIATE.... LETS RE-NEGOTIATE.... LETS RE-NEGOTIATE.... LETS RE-NEGOTIATE....
Its like a god damn broken record... No matter how many times anyone says or shows proof that ANY of the previous UK re-negotiations works out properly in the UK favour and simply not steam rollered and just pushed through... you say the same magical bulls
t every time...What on gods earth makes you think that this time the UK can re-negotiate s
t?We were supposed to do that with the EU budget, was going in the UKs favour..... THEN.... EU stuck two fingers up at the UK and demanded an extra £770 million off the UK.
So tell me how the UK is going to get any better terms, by going to the same table since the inception of the EU that they have been bent over and buggered senseless each time and been told to accept it for the good of the EU?
Show the good people on here some of this wisdom that you think it will be different 'this time' round???
Du1point8 said:
djstevec said:
My personal preference is the re-negotiation the return of whatever regulation and decision making for business that we can back to the UK.
The whole circular argument happens because you come up with same nonsensical bullst every time.LETS RE-NEGOTIATE.... LETS RE-NEGOTIATE.... LETS RE-NEGOTIATE.... LETS RE-NEGOTIATE.... LETS RE-NEGOTIATE.... LETS RE-NEGOTIATE.... LETS RE-NEGOTIATE....
Its like a god damn broken record... No matter how many times anyone says or shows proof that ANY of the previous UK re-negotiations works out properly in the UK favour and simply not steam rollered and just pushed through... you say the same magical bulls
t every time...What on gods earth makes you think that this time the UK can re-negotiate s
t?t?Globs said:
And more to the point, can anyone locate a single voter who would swallow the bullst?
But if we exit the eu we'll be able to successfully re-negotiate all those trade agreements and treaties? I would think that our negotiating position would be weaker if we vote to exit, not stronger.t?RYH64E said:
Globs said:
And more to the point, can anyone locate a single voter who would swallow the bullst?
But if we exit the eu we'll be able to successfully re-negotiate all those trade agreements and treaties? I would think that our negotiating position would be weaker if we vote to exit, not stronger.t?We get out voted or steam rollered every time... what is this mystical pile of crap you call our ability to re-negotiate if we stay in, when we have never been able to do that in the past?
Explain why now you think the EU would do it at the 'threat' of leaving instead of just leaving and sorting ourselves out for the good of the country.
Du1point8 said:
Re-negotiate what? Good god man!! have your read what you type?
We get out voted or steam rollered every time... what is this mystical pile of crap you call our ability to re-negotiate if we stay in, when we have never been able to do that in the past?
Explain why now you think the EU would do it at the 'threat' of leaving instead of just leaving and sorting ourselves out for the good of the country.
I'd like to see us re-negotiate, but I'm not really fussed if we can't. The eu doesn't unduly affect my life in a negative way, and on the whole I think I'm better off in than out. The daft regulations are irritating, nothing more, trade is much more important.We get out voted or steam rollered every time... what is this mystical pile of crap you call our ability to re-negotiate if we stay in, when we have never been able to do that in the past?
Explain why now you think the EU would do it at the 'threat' of leaving instead of just leaving and sorting ourselves out for the good of the country.
edited to add: I think you misunderstood my erlier post, I was doubting our post-exit ability to negotiate any kind of acceptable trading agreements with the remaining eu members, not commenting on the liklihood of DC renogiating the terms of our current membership.
Edited by RYH64E on Friday 17th May 21:40
RYH64E said:
Du1point8 said:
Re-negotiate what? Good god man!! have your read what you type?
We get out voted or steam rollered every time... what is this mystical pile of crap you call our ability to re-negotiate if we stay in, when we have never been able to do that in the past?
Explain why now you think the EU would do it at the 'threat' of leaving instead of just leaving and sorting ourselves out for the good of the country.
I'd like to see us re-negotiate, but I'm not really fussed if we can't. The eu doesn't unduly affect my life in a negative way, and on the whole I think I'm better off in than out. The daft regulations are irritating, nothing more, trade is much more important.We get out voted or steam rollered every time... what is this mystical pile of crap you call our ability to re-negotiate if we stay in, when we have never been able to do that in the past?
Explain why now you think the EU would do it at the 'threat' of leaving instead of just leaving and sorting ourselves out for the good of the country.
Trade on the other hand will always be available, EU cant afford to drop us and are not allowed according to the Lisbon treat (as has been said many times before) and the UK imports more from the EU then we export to the EU, so its not in their best interests to try and screw us (as has been said before)...
So again what is it that we need that we cant get elsewhere?
For one thing the Sugar industry in the UK would not be going bankrupt if we left, they can start to reopen the 6 other (out of 7) factories they have closed down due to the EU.
Du1point8 said:
Yet again you come up with this mythical solution that we have never been able to do in the past, that you now think the UK can do... Seriously?
How many times do I have to say 'I don't really care if we can re-negotiate the terms of our current membership or not, the eu is an irritiation, nothing more'.RYH64E said:
I'd like to see us re-negotiate, but I'm not really fussed if we can't.
We can't.RYH64E said:
The eu doesn't unduly affect my life in a negative way, and on the whole I think I'm better off in than out. The daft regulations are irritating, nothing more, trade is much more important.
You pay nearly £1 a day (£55m per day, about £70m souls in the country) for those 'fast' regulations that you know nothing about. You are governed by the EU, nothing less.Trade is irrelevant - we are the big customer, we have a stronger hand than the EU and any kind of leader would use that.
Globs said:
You pay nearly £1 a day (£55m per day, about £70m souls in the country) for those 'fast' regulations that you know nothing about. You are governed by the EU, nothing less.
Trade is irrelevant - we are the big customer, we have a stronger hand than the EU and any kind of leader would use that.
Nearly £1 a day eh? And you struggle to understand why I'm not fussed? It's a pittance and not worth the risk of exit.Trade is irrelevant - we are the big customer, we have a stronger hand than the EU and any kind of leader would use that.
RYH64E said:
Globs said:
You pay nearly £1 a day (£55m per day, about £70m souls in the country) for those 'fast' regulations that you know nothing about. You are governed by the EU, nothing less.
Trade is irrelevant - we are the big customer, we have a stronger hand than the EU and any kind of leader would use that.
Nearly £1 a day eh? And you struggle to understand why I'm not fussed? It's a pittance and not worth the risk of exit.Trade is irrelevant - we are the big customer, we have a stronger hand than the EU and any kind of leader would use that.
That explains a lot.
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