Aston Martin advice from Bamford Rose independent specialist
Discussion
rmrmd1956 said:
Am I interpreting these correctly, esp max knock retard on 2007 AMV8 is 9 deg??
Mark
The other Ford projects using the Visteon ECU, to my knowledge, did not have same knock strategy because the Aston software strategy was bespoke and bought in just for Aston - but i could be wrong? so i would not compare a generic name like 'knock window' (found in any engine management system) and expect the label works / does / applies the same features. There is lots of redundant code left in the ECU from Ford days too, so its possible to get into a right knot when trying to figure how the system works.Mark
The maximum slow correction is 5 degrees, maximum fast correction (few TDC's, is around 7.5 degrees) so for a few TDC's maximum retard is 12.5, you can measure this if you plug into OBD port and operate car with low Octane fuel.
The window knock occurs at is very similar for any gasoline engine, although your pressure charged ignition borderline will be later (retarded) where your engine should detonate the current window will detect fine, i would not touch the window. The other maps refer to the rate ignition is reapplied after detonation and from experience, you would not want to make any faster. If you encounter too much knock just alter the base map and treat knock control as a closed box.
what are you really trying to achieve here and why, perhaps i can help better knowing this?
glennv01 said:
Hi Mike -
Your reputaion preceeds you - even when I am here in Florida. I have a 2006 DB9 with 46k miles and love every minute with it. My local AM mechanic and I are a little stumped as my car has developed, what seems to associated with V12's a ticking sound, about two beats per second metallic, only when it warms up to operating temperature. There are not performance issues, all fluids good,etc. There was an extensive tread on this by another English owner under "engine ticking" and he has tried in vain to find the root cause. In all of your experience, what are some of the less obvious possibilities we dealing with here? Thanks from an admirer!
Hi.Your reputaion preceeds you - even when I am here in Florida. I have a 2006 DB9 with 46k miles and love every minute with it. My local AM mechanic and I are a little stumped as my car has developed, what seems to associated with V12's a ticking sound, about two beats per second metallic, only when it warms up to operating temperature. There are not performance issues, all fluids good,etc. There was an extensive tread on this by another English owner under "engine ticking" and he has tried in vain to find the root cause. In all of your experience, what are some of the less obvious possibilities we dealing with here? Thanks from an admirer!
Ticking sounds i have heard follow the same conditions you state where / how the sound occurs. After inspection of each engine, and in my experience, what the sound is not can be eliminated easily (oil or water pumps or aux drive systems, camshaft / valvetrain, anything external or bolted to the engine or the engine in bad health such as high blow-by). The remaining possible causes on the list at the frequency the sound occurs at (IE not seemingly combustion related) leaves only mechanical as possible causes, such as crankshaft main bearings, big end bearings, small end bearings. We have rebuilt engines where tick was present and nothing in error with bearings was detectable on analysis post strip, however, after rebuild the problem disappeared. I'm not suggesting your problem is bearing related, and the engine needs to be removed, and as i have seen from some engines, the tick is happy to stay present without manifesting into anything more serious than an annoying noise for many miles. However, when all clearances are properly understood and when rebuilt with according grade parts, the tick disappears. I realise this is not much help, but there is no magic solution where a non-intrusive fix easily cures the problem.
I find it helpful to stand underneath car on ramp and move ears between middle of sump, then from right side to left side of engine. If sounds the same both sides, could be bottom end related, if stronger one bank to other, could be piston related. Ultimately, if you want to do anything about this it will be engine out job, so i would either teach yourself to ignore it, sell it, or take the leap and have engine rebuilt. There is a sliver cloud to engines we remove and rebuild - it dont go back in std BHP..!
because i cant be of much help, any help from franchised dealer??
BamfordMike said:
mikey k said:
Mike
Johnny 550's first hoon is booked for last week of August so crack the whip with Bruce please
update pending..... and before you get twitchy Johnny 550's first hoon is booked for last week of August so crack the whip with Bruce please
as can be seen by the heroic lurking of 'Sawilli', Rosie has had her slot booked for quite some time....talk soon.!
BamfordMike said:
The other Ford projects using the Visteon ECU, to my knowledge, did not have same knock strategy because the Aston software strategy was bespoke and bought in just for Aston - but i could be wrong? so i would not compare a generic name like 'knock window' (found in any engine management system) and expect the label works / does / applies the same features. There is lots of redundant code left in the ECU from Ford days too, so its possible to get into a right knot when trying to figure how the system works.
The maximum slow correction is 5 degrees, maximum fast correction (few TDC's, is around 7.5 degrees) so for a few TDC's maximum retard is 12.5, you can measure this if you plug into OBD port and operate car with low Octane fuel.
The window knock occurs at is very similar for any gasoline engine, although your pressure charged ignition borderline will be later (retarded) where your engine should detonate the current window will detect fine, i would not touch the window. The other maps refer to the rate ignition is reapplied after detonation and from experience, you would not want to make any faster. If you encounter too much knock just alter the base map and treat knock control as a closed box.
what are you really trying to achieve here and why, perhaps i can help better knowing this?
Just trying to understand my limits. I want to run as much spark as possible but leave enough room for error. On the stock BKT I'm pulling 10 deg of timing pretty much from 4-7K RPM. This is a lower ECT and ACT where I don't think AM modifies the spark. I've adjusted my BKT to compensate for 1/2 that amount. The maximum slow correction is 5 degrees, maximum fast correction (few TDC's, is around 7.5 degrees) so for a few TDC's maximum retard is 12.5, you can measure this if you plug into OBD port and operate car with low Octane fuel.
The window knock occurs at is very similar for any gasoline engine, although your pressure charged ignition borderline will be later (retarded) where your engine should detonate the current window will detect fine, i would not touch the window. The other maps refer to the rate ignition is reapplied after detonation and from experience, you would not want to make any faster. If you encounter too much knock just alter the base map and treat knock control as a closed box.
what are you really trying to achieve here and why, perhaps i can help better knowing this?
I'd be happy to send you my interpretation of the AM Strategy if you'd like?
sawilli said:
In any event I am claiming the record for longest journey to/from BR for ‘repairs’. Move over Diablo Blanco!
Indeed Simon, you have the longest pilgrimage distance record.... for now... For now because here is an example of how even the most seemingly difficult records to break can be broken.......!
Previously held by Oscar for being the car with the lowest mileage / youngest age delivered to BR for enhancement, sorry to tell you Oscar - you have lost your crown..
can you guess what the new owner of the title is.....
ok, need more of a clue....
need more.....?
ok,
enough...... The reveal......!
And the record... the lowest mileage car in for enhancement now stands at 670 miles.
Most of you will know by now that apart from DB4 Zagato, my fav aston is original Vanquish, but i am close to being won over... This Vanquish is a truly stunning car to just stand back from and gaze at and hold in awe. It's lines are contemporary and a step away from classic and understated values of old, and this might be 'marmite' for some. But whatever camp an individual might belong to concerning styling and looks, no matter the preference, it is impossible to gaze at Vanquish II and conclude it is nothing other than totally gorgeous.
This car has been very well specified. The paint colour is beautiful, the yellow calipers contrast the best with blue paint (as we already know from 'Woolders') and look fab, the paint matching interior stitching and how this contrasts with light cream interior, combined with the evolved interior of Vanquish II creates one of the best 'cabins' to sit in and feel fantastic in, that i have ever come across.
Such a fantastic car, why is it in for enhancement at BR, some of you might say??
Well... underneath that skin is in essence evolved VH platform from DBS. Breaking each system down; the brakes are probably one of the finest examples in the industry, fantastic modulation / feel giving phenomenal stopping power from speed whilst still being usable around town. The spring and dampers / suspension is sorted - fully adaptable electronic. The gearbox, well... its OK. For a focused Supercar, like original Vanquish, i suppose it should have been an industry leading Automated Shift Manual system, but with the current tech the factory use, in reality that would have delivered a worse driver / gearbox interaction than the ZF Auto fitted to Vanquish II - so in reality, the ZF box in Vanquish II was the right choice and it actually shifts rather well. So, BR can make no improvements to all these systems - where do we step in??
Of course the engine... and now at Bamford Rose we are now going to make right something we wanted but couldn't or weren't allowed to do at the factory. This is '''Vanquish''' and to stay true to the original values of the awesome Vanquish I, Vanquish II needs to pack a power punch to intimidate - its a super car after all..! Nobody wants to create a 'ditch finder' but Vanquish II needs power output that the driver and the whole world knows commands respect, and Vanquish II, dare I say, is a little docile. at engine speeds below 5000 rpm the engine is a little lazy to pick up, turn traction off and launch control mode and in straight line the tyres dont even light up. Leave Bamford Rose down the Fosse-Way in Vanquish I, driving 'with spirit', and soon into that drive the adrenalin is pumping and the driver knows he is in a super car. Do the same in Vanquish II, and well, its just a little underwhelming, feels 'damped' and the same sort of 'i'm in a supercar' feeling delivered from Vanquish I, Vanquish II falls a little short on. But nonetheless, in standard form Vanquish II is an OK drive, that cannot be disputed - it's just we know it can be better!
So, Bamford Rose are Challenged to Vanquish the original Vanquish... by doing what we wanted to do whilst at the factory, and give Vanquish II the supercar feeling from Supercar performance. The 6.0L V12 engine moves on from 510BHP DBS to (we will test to see if true!!) 565 ish BHP. I was the first development engineer at factory to ever fire up a Vanquish II engine on test facility and develop the power output of the engine, which had improved on my previous work on DBS with; larger throttles for more airflow, larger inlet manifold to relieve depression losses, high lift cams, larger inlet valves and knock control to make certain the spark was advanced at all times to give optimum performance. However, what I wanted to achieve was 600 BHP / 100BHP per litre, but the on-cost of the parts to achieve that was a step too far for the factory pocket. Sad because 600BHP would have given that super car feeling, made the car more lively at the bottom end engine speed range, made the engine punch for the redline and go through the gears in a way a supercar, especially a car that wears the 'Vanquish' name tag should do.
So here we go......
we start with this.
add a little of this...
and some familiar friends;
and by following this process, lets see if we make Vanquish II live up to his name..!
1- Static noise test (remember we want power but not too much noise increase)
2- Dyno power test
3- In gear acceleration time measurement
4- the 'Enhancement'
5- Static noise test
6- Dyno power test
7- In gear acceleration time measurement
As you very well know, a project needs a name - its the law.....
Lance, Armstrong, Oscar - all champions with dirty secrets, like our cars being on steroids after BR has fettled with them. I'm now thinking that these BR steroids are becoming so mainstream that, well, its all above board, accepted and available over the counter. You might disagree Mr Cockers? but this means we can now reflect our champions with names of legitimate fellows.....
Like our Vanquish will become here, we need a champion of the road....
Wearing the Vanquish crown needs confidence and even arrogance...
Ummmm......
Meet..... 'Cavendish'...... Cavendish the Vanquish.......
Stay tuned for his results.....
Edited by BamfordMike on Saturday 18th May 16:06
Cockernee said:
I am hoping that the lucky owner of this beast will be taking me for a spin
If he gets instructions off you, probably quite literally..."it's openin' up lovely nair, step on it me old china... 'airpin comin' up... oh is that a bank over there? Where's me shootah..?'
Fantastic looking car, really hope to see it in the carbon at some point soon
BamfordMike said:
Hi Jez.
Truly great car to fill a gap..!
There are lots of snippets here and there that give good buyers guide on Vanquish. I would use these to determine interior spec and trim level. As far as mechanics go, yes, there are some comprehensive guides out there (and no better place than a few Vanquish related threads on PH) BUT, there are checks needed to reassure any buyer that cannot be performed anywhere other than on a ramp with some cosmetic covers removed and by a trained eye. So i cant recommend a pre inspection highly enough.
There is no real pattern to what age / mileage a Vanquish requires certain parts. As per the example a page or so back on this thread, a late Vanquish S with 20k on the clock was a dream condition Vanquish. its sister (a car with very close VIN) was in our workshop at the same time, around the same miles and has needed significantly more repairs / corrective works. No 2 are the same, here is an example. There is a common wear part of harness behind the back of the engine / in the valley. Because the harness (like lots of parts) is built in a fairly uncontrolled way, the wires which touch and chafe vary car to car, meaning the problems caused varies car to car - as do problems with Vanquish vary car to car in many other respects.
so, a pre purchase inspection after buyers guides have helped you select flavour of your chariot. I would not walk away from a 'problem' either. If a Vanquish needs tyres, brakes and has 30k on clock with no sign of clutch replacement, use this as lever to get the correct price (the works stated here are approx £7500) the worry has to be front subframe, as reported here -
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=118...
a horrible problem and one to steer clear of..
feel free to drop in, just let us know when! if we are clever we can have a Vanquish on ramp for a mooch around.
good luck!!
Mike, thanks for the reply . I guess that's the downside of hand building a car.. I have similar issues with one of mine which is far from OE spec. Drove one the other day, niceTruly great car to fill a gap..!
There are lots of snippets here and there that give good buyers guide on Vanquish. I would use these to determine interior spec and trim level. As far as mechanics go, yes, there are some comprehensive guides out there (and no better place than a few Vanquish related threads on PH) BUT, there are checks needed to reassure any buyer that cannot be performed anywhere other than on a ramp with some cosmetic covers removed and by a trained eye. So i cant recommend a pre inspection highly enough.
There is no real pattern to what age / mileage a Vanquish requires certain parts. As per the example a page or so back on this thread, a late Vanquish S with 20k on the clock was a dream condition Vanquish. its sister (a car with very close VIN) was in our workshop at the same time, around the same miles and has needed significantly more repairs / corrective works. No 2 are the same, here is an example. There is a common wear part of harness behind the back of the engine / in the valley. Because the harness (like lots of parts) is built in a fairly uncontrolled way, the wires which touch and chafe vary car to car, meaning the problems caused varies car to car - as do problems with Vanquish vary car to car in many other respects.
so, a pre purchase inspection after buyers guides have helped you select flavour of your chariot. I would not walk away from a 'problem' either. If a Vanquish needs tyres, brakes and has 30k on clock with no sign of clutch replacement, use this as lever to get the correct price (the works stated here are approx £7500) the worry has to be front subframe, as reported here -
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=118...
a horrible problem and one to steer clear of..
feel free to drop in, just let us know when! if we are clever we can have a Vanquish on ramp for a mooch around.
good luck!!
although the interior wasn't really for me.Will keep on the hunt.....
Stonic said:
You have to say more than just that... So what are you having done?
My 4.7 V8V is getting the BR Pinnacle Exhaust system, Clutch, Flywheel and Intake upgrade 
As you can maybe tell I am super exited about this and did not mind driving over 700 miles for it.
I shall report how it goes - I am also hoping for some minor issues with my car to be magicked away by the BR crew at the same time.
I've bought the car used about a month ago and discovered a few niggles meanwhile... that said, I LOVE the V8 Vantage, especially since it also permitted me to get to know some fellow PHers in person and go for a couple of spirited drives.
Can't wait to drive it with the upgrades
Prepare to be amazed! I promise that I am not joking. What is the intake mod that you are having? Also when you collect your V8V Mike or Adrian will more than likely take you for a little demo drive to demonstrate what they have achieved, the word I would use to describe the trip is 'memorable'
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