UKIP - The Future

[Wombat3]

Guam said:

Wombat3 said:

As a general observation, this kind of level of exposure this quickly is probably not actually going to do UKIP any good.

Its moving too fast, peaking too early & has all the hallmarks of a bubble that is going to burst. As expected, its going to come under increasing amounts of sustained scrutiny & sustained pressure. As it happens we are heading towards the summer break when politics generally goes quiet but it will be interesting to see what happens when things pick up in the autumn.

You keep telling yourself that I am sure it will give you a warm glow, personally I wouldn't be so sure

For someone like me with no vested interest, other than being a disenfranchised floating voter, this is amusing to behold. Attacking ones activist base is as close to political suicide as a party leadership can get.

Indeed it is - but the simple fact is , nobody has actually pinned the "swivel-eyed loons" quote on anyone as far as I know. Its all hear-say that has , as usual , been morphed into fact that somehow finds itself being attributed to the people at the very top. Its honestly pathetic that supposed adults get so worked up about such things based on so little fact! It is of course also just being used to meet political ends by those it suits to do so - which in turn shows how little of actual substance they themselves have to offer (IMO). Any serious politician would talk about something, well, serious? (and christ knows there's plenty of that to discuss)

Even if it was said, we still don't even know not what the context was (never mind who said it). It may, for example have been used (appropriately) to describe a person or small group of people in particular, but again, its seemingly been applead to just about anyone who isn't in the cabinet. Its pathetic.

I find it frustrating & disappointing in equal measure that the debate in this country descends to such levels so quicjkly when there is clearly so much more important stuff to spend time on & the Tory party really does need to get a fking grip

You'd think it was the school playground....

[einsign]

Is it possible on PH to create a type of moving political priority list with each person voting against it?

eg:

Immigration + 1,2,3,4
Farming + 1,2,3
Nuclear + 1
Foreign Aid
Green Subsides - 4
Gay Marriage + 1

Maybe someone clever on here could think of a system, that way maybe we could actually discuss topics on the basis of priority. Then sell the solution to the government

[Mr_B]

fluffnik said:

CommanderJameson said:

Farage is strong when he controls the situation - basically, when he's a talking head - but in a debate? I think you're right; he'll get minced.

He didn't hold up at all well in that fairly gentle Radio Scotland interview, just imagine a severe paxmanning...

Have a look on Youtube, he's met Paxman plenty of times. Hanging up on a rude idiot who has no real questions on policy, is not the same and coming under scrutiny for the policies you are standing for by someone with an understanding of politics.

[Mr Snap]

Norfolkit said:

Zod said:

I'm beginning to think that Cameron should not be scared of facing Farage in a TV debate. He will bluster and simply have nothing sensible to say on any subject other than Eruope and immigration (not that what he has to say on those subjects is entirely sensible).

You missed an important point though, Cameron can give the greatest performance ever seen in a TV debate and it won't do him the slightest bit of good because no one believes a word he says anymore. He's lost the trust of his own supporters let alone the general public. He's cried wolf once way too often, he's a Europhile in sheeps clothing, zero credibility left.

True, Cameron may be a busted flush in political terms. But that doesn't mean that, in open debate, he couldn't make mincemeat of Farage by attacking his policies.

One doesn't have to be a winner to land a fatal blow.

[Mr_B]

Mr Snap said:

Norfolkit said:

Zod said:

I'm beginning to think that Cameron should not be scared of facing Farage in a TV debate. He will bluster and simply have nothing sensible to say on any subject other than Eruope and immigration (not that what he has to say on those subjects is entirely sensible).

You missed an important point though, Cameron can give the greatest performance ever seen in a TV debate and it won't do him the slightest bit of good because no one believes a word he says anymore. He's lost the trust of his own supporters let alone the general public. He's cried wolf once way too often, he's a Europhile in sheeps clothing, zero credibility left.

True, Cameron may be a busted flush in political terms. But that doesn't mean that, in open debate, he couldn't make mincemeat of Farage by attacking his policies.

One doesn't have to be a winner to land a fatal blow.

Those very policies he's rushing to adopt ?

[oyster]

rudecherub said:

The truth is under UKIP the Gay Marriage question wouldn't have been handled this way.

IMO The business of government isn't social engineering - it's the economy, defence of the realm, - serious matters, not what consenting adults get up to on their down time.

In a modern democracy a societal value change like this would require a petition of voters to reach a critical threshold, then once that number of signatures was reached it would trigger a referendum on the question.

Then the majority would be able to determine whether the term marriage should be redefined from it's traditional meaning to a modern civil one. The democratic outcome would be clear.

That way no one could charge the "Swivel eyed loons or the rampant metrosexuals" or other pejorative for persons with deeply held beliefs and or convictions of having undue influence.

So no, a small c conservative UKIP government probably wouldn't repeal Gay Marriage, they would however legislate for popular referendums which would allow for people vote on the issue - if enough people petitioned for that vote.

What good is a strong economy if we live in an unjust and intolerant place? Sorting gay marriage is MORE important than the economy as far as I'm concerned.

[Wombat3]

Guam said:

Wombat3 said:

Indeed it is - but the simple fact is , nobody has actually pinned the "swivel-eyed loons" quote on anyone as far as I know. Its all hear-say that has , as usual , been morphed into fact that somehow finds itself being attributed to the people at the very top. Its honestly pathetic that supposed adults get so worked up about such things based on so little fact! It is of course also just being used to meet political ends by those it suits to do so - which in turn shows how little of actual substance they themselves have to offer (IMO). Any serious politician would talk about something, well, serious? (and christ knows there's plenty of that to discuss)

Even if it was said, we still don't even know not what the context was (never mind who said it). It may, for example have been used (appropriately) to describe a person or small group of people in particular, but again, its seemingly been applead to just about anyone who isn't in the cabinet. Its pathetic.

I find it frustrating & disappointing in equal measure that the debate in this country descends to such levels so quicjkly when there is clearly so much more important stuff to spend time on & the Tory party really does need to get a fking grip

You'd think it was the school playground....

Paxman has confirmed it was said as he was present, I imagine he will be holding on the disclosure as to who until he can get them on Newsnight, should be riveting viewing

Good-oh - I'll look forward to that

That said, Paxo is never above twisting stuff for the sake of "Good TV". He's great at roasting people in the name thereof and very much not above focussing in on a timy detail & ignoring the context and/or wider issues to achieve that. Quite entertaining but not always terribly objective (and that goes to the way he has dealt with people from all parties over the years).

Any clues as to the context in which this might have been said?

[Wombat3]

Guam said:

Mr Snap said:

True, Cameron may be a busted flush in political terms. But that doesn't mean that, in open debate, he couldn't make mincemeat of Farage by attacking his policies.

One doesn't have to be a winner to land a fatal blow.

One has to be in the Ring to land the punch and the fact as to whether he may be in the ring for the Tories is looking increasingly uncertain, in fact I will stick my neck out and suggest he wont be leader by the next election, they have all the hallmarks of being in complete meltdown right now

Not as much as it suits some people to say.

[Norfolkit]

Mr Snap said:

Norfolkit said:

Zod said:

I'm beginning to think that Cameron should not be scared of facing Farage in a TV debate. He will bluster and simply have nothing sensible to say on any subject other than Eruope and immigration (not that what he has to say on those subjects is entirely sensible).

You missed an important point though, Cameron can give the greatest performance ever seen in a TV debate and it won't do him the slightest bit of good because no one believes a word he says anymore. He's lost the trust of his own supporters let alone the general public. He's cried wolf once way too often, he's a Europhile in sheeps clothing, zero credibility left.

True, Cameron may be a busted flush in political terms. But that doesn't mean that, in open debate, he couldn't make mincemeat of Farage by attacking his policies.

One doesn't have to be a winner to land a fatal blow.

Possibly, but, Cameron CAN'T debate policy, he has none.
Policy on Europe, defer it until next parliament.
Policy on immigration, nothing I can do about it (see Europe above)
Policy on growth, has none, austerity will take us to the promised land.
Poilcy on auterity, let's do a bit, but not too much, let's not do enough to make much difference, status quo n'all that.
Put him on the spot and Cameron is transparent, unstrustworthy and devoid of ideas (lots of "aspiration" but no policy to back it up).
Farage has little to worry about.
<and me a life long Tory>

[irocfan]

oyster said:

What good is a strong economy if we live in an unjust and intolerant place? Sorting gay marriage is MORE important than the economy as far as I'm concerned.

a distinctly 1st world problem there - seriously if everything goes down the pan extremism has the potential to rise meaning potentially real problems for gays, blacks, the disabled, jews.... say don't we have some sort of historical precedent for this type of thing?

[mattnunn]

irocfan said:

oyster said:

What good is a strong economy if we live in an unjust and intolerant place? Sorting gay marriage is MORE important than the economy as far as I'm concerned.

a distinctly 1st world problem there - seriously if everything goes down the pan extremism has the potential to rise meaning potentially real problems for gays, blacks, the disabled, jews.... say don't we have some sort of historical precedent for this type of thing?

You're ingnoring the potential rise of pro gay, disabled, black, jewish extremists... That's the future, not UKIP.

[Wombat3]

Norfolkit said:

Mr Snap said:

Norfolkit said:

Zod said:

I'm beginning to think that Cameron should not be scared of facing Farage in a TV debate. He will bluster and simply have nothing sensible to say on any subject other than Eruope and immigration (not that what he has to say on those subjects is entirely sensible).

You missed an important point though, Cameron can give the greatest performance ever seen in a TV debate and it won't do him the slightest bit of good because no one believes a word he says anymore. He's lost the trust of his own supporters let alone the general public. He's cried wolf once way too often, he's a Europhile in sheeps clothing, zero credibility left.

True, Cameron may be a busted flush in political terms. But that doesn't mean that, in open debate, he couldn't make mincemeat of Farage by attacking his policies.

One doesn't have to be a winner to land a fatal blow.

Possibly, but, Cameron CAN'T debate policy, he has none.
Policy on Europe, defer it until next parliament.
Policy on immigration, nothing I can do about it (see Europe above)
Policy on growth, has none, austerity will take us to the promised land.
Poilcy on auterity, let's do a bit, but not too much, let's not do enough to make much difference, status quo n'all that.
Put him on the spot and Cameron is transparent, unstrustworthy and devoid of ideas (lots of "aspiration" but no policy to back it up).
Farage has little to worry about.
<and me a life long Tory>

Honsetly, what a load of utter rubbish!

Policy on Europe is clear and subject to the constraints of being in a coalition with the LD's.
Policy in immigration is and as you say, constrained by inherited European law though things are being done to stop benefit and healtcare tourism.
Economic indicators are that economic policy is working & forecasts are encouraging which , given where they started just 3 years ago is bordering on a bloody miracle.
Policy on "Austerity" is a balance between what is practical, possible and socially and politically acceptable. Some say there is too much of it, some say too little. Everyone has an opinion on this and there are arguments in all directions.

Once again, the Mantra that "Cameron is untrustworthy". Not that he is wrong & why he is wrong, just, "he's a liar". Usual bks

Farage is the one with an uncosted Economic plan that some are saying has a £120Bn black hole it . We will see how well that stands up in due course once people start paying serious attention to it. He has plenty to be concerned about on this and a whole range of other issues (starting with how he's going to keep control of his own party).

Edited by Wombat3 on Tuesday 21st May 13:13

Edited by Wombat3 on Tuesday 21st May 13:14

[Mr Snap]

Guam said:

Mr Snap said:

He's right, the faster UKIP grows, the more difficult it will find managing that growth.

Oh I see so we segway from they are a bunch of closet racist nutcases who have no hope of achieving anything substantial, to the fact they have peaked too early presupposing this is the peak of course, that may be correct, conversely it may not be the peak, what then?

This is getting really interesting now

No, we segue (sic) from a bunch of frustrated, unhappy, people (some of whom have been proven to be closet racists and not so closet homophobes) who have the ability to do lasting harm, to a bunch of frustrated and unhappy people who don't believe that you can be a victim of your own success.

I never said that UKIP was a flash in the pan. UKIP can probably do lots of substantial things, the only problem for me is I think those things would be damaging. I think they represent a vociferous minority of dissatisfied people whose wants can never be met. We can't turn the clock back. Leaving the EU won't cure anything, it'll just create a different set of intractable problems. And the answers to intractable problems aren't simple, as UKIP would like you to believe.

Any politician who promises jam tomorrow is lying to you.

[anonymous-user]

Mr Snap said:

Zod said:

Tallbutbuxomly said:

Personality i would love to vote tory but i think due to the gay marriage debacle i simply cannot and will not. The tories are more liberal loony than the lib dems.

So you won't vote Tory because they are going to let gay people marry. You are so upset by gay marriage that it trumps all other reasons to vote or not vote for a party. Is your life really going to be affected by this?

He's probably worried about the "aggressive homosexual community". I live in Brighton and they'd certainly put the willies up me on a dark night (if I let them).

"Former Conservative defence minister Sir Gerald Howarth has warned of the dangers of the "aggressive homosexual community".

The Aldershot MP was speaking during the Commons debate on the Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill on Monday evening. Sir Gerald said he opposed the bill as he believed it would restrict the freedom of speech of people who were opposed to same-sex weddings for religious reasons.

His fellow Tory MP, Margot James, said gay rights legislation had necessarily "levelled the playing field" to ensure "outrageous verbal aggression" directed at gay people would stop.

But Sir Gerald suggested that rather than creating a level playing field gay rights had actually gone too far. "I warn her, I fear the playing field is not being levelled I believe the pendulum is swinging so far the other way, and there are plenty in the aggressive homosexual community who see this as but a stepping stone to something even further," he said.

The MP did not make clear what that further step would be." (Huffington Post)

(Stolen from the other thread) From the NZ parliament discussion on gay right to marriage. Homophobes, stop worrying; the sun will still rise

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRQXQxadyps

[vonuber]

vonuber said:

So are UKIP going to repeal gay marriage if they get in?

Still waiting for a response on this from the UKIP supporters; it's one of their policy planks after all.

[Wombat3]

Guam said:

Wombat3 said:

Not as much as it suits some people to say.

Perhaps, but from where I sit its a case of history repeating itself as a major party disintegrates, seen the Tories do it before, seen Labour do it, I feel that given CMD has record lows in opinions of him by the populace, the fact the parliamentary party are split down the middle, the fact he is forced to dance Cleggs tunes and now this <Loons>, he is beginning to look like a dead man walking, to those of us on the outside. I doubt there is much more travel left in his career TBH.

I don't think its the same as previously because

a) The opposition is crap
b) the Loons thing hasn't come from him and it will be sorted out & history in 3 months time.
c) As you say there is recognition of the constraints imposed by the LDs
d) His personal opinion poll ratings are actually not bad for a mid term PM and the Tory ratings are also closer to Labour than they should be
e) Economically things are beginning to come right.

This last thing is the key. If the economy continues to recover and the pace of that recovery accelerates as it looks set to do then all else will pale into insignificance IMO.

If it tanks then they are dead in the water - as would be any government.

[MX7]

vonuber said:

Still waiting for a response on this from the UKIP supporters; it's one of their policy planks after all.

Do you really think they could repeal it, even if the wanted to?

Governments don't generally spend their time undoing what has been done. Daft question.

[ewenm]

vonuber said:

vonuber said:

So are UKIP going to repeal gay marriage if they get in?

Still waiting for a response on this from the UKIP supporters; it's one of their policy planks after all.

If they are fans of "small government" then I'd have thought they wouldn't repeal it - throw away the civil partnership legislation and have one law for all. Of course, they'd have to get past the "if gays can marry then people might think I'm gay when I say I'm married" objection that most of it seems to boil down to.

[Wombat3]

Guam said:

Wombat3 said:

I don't think its the same as previously because

a) The opposition is crap
b) the Loons thing hasn't come from him and it will be sorted out & history in 3 months time.
c) As you say there is recognition of the constraints imposed by the LDs
d) His personal opinion poll ratings are actually not bad for a mid term PM and the Tory ratings are also closer to Labour than they should be
e) Economically things are beginning to come right.

This last thing is the key. If the economy continues to recover and the pace of that recovery accelerates as it looks set to do then all else will pale into insignificance IMO.

If it tanks then they are dead in the water - as would be any government.

I admire your optimism
Frankly I doubt he will be leading them come the next election, its not a matter of if he goes imho, it's more a case of when.

He will go if he loses in 2015, that much is certain. In the meantime they will regroup over the summer, words will be had & the big beasts will get the party by the scruff of the neck & pull it together IMO. It will be a case of "hard work is done, don't blow it now" as the economy comes right. It may not pan out that way but its far from impossible.

In fact when you look at it , given the circumstances he's done very little wrong and a lot of things are starting to come right.

There is a long way to go till 2015 but equally not enough time to change the Tory leader I would think. Doing so will just hand the opposition a golden bullet to fire. Cameron is also about the only thing in the Tory party holding the Coalition together IMO & therefore if he goes we could well get a GE before 2015 & the Tories would be pretty much guaranteed to lose it. I would think they know that perfectly well

Besides, two more years of this will about consign the LD's to history. and in hindsight, some would say that that will be a huge victory for the Tories for the future

[Tallbutbuxomly]

TheHeretic said:

odyssey2200 said:

TBH IDGARA if geys are married, Civil Parnership or whatever esle they might be into.

It's a non issues in the grand scheme of things which only concerns a minority of the population.

What biols my piss is the factthat Cameron is so hell bent on persuing ing as though it's THE most important thing in the world.

What about the economy?
What about Europe?
What about leading your party?
What about the messed up energy policies?

Get a fking grip on what matters man, or get the fk out!

Edited by odyssey2200 on Tuesday 21st May 10:14

When should they do it?

When it becomes the most important thing on the populace and govs agenda maybe?