The Case for EU Membership

[London424]

vonuber said:

London424 said:

So it'll have to be fully EU compliant but we wouldn't be paying for the EU...sounds like a win to me.

Except you lose your say in actually shaping them to not disadvantage your own industry.

You mean like the say about the financial transaction tax? Yeah that went well.

[ralphrj]

London424 said:

So it'll have to be fully EU compliant but we wouldn't be paying for the EU...sounds like a win to me.

If you want to be part of the European Economic Area but not part of the EU then you will have to pay just as the 3 countries that currently enjoy this situation do (Norway, Iceland and Liechtenstein).

Those countries don't pay anything like as much as we currently do but that is because their economies are much smaller.

If you assume that we would have to pay an amount based on the size of our economy (using the amount that Norway have to pay) then it would be £2-3bn per year.

That is less than half of our current net contribution but comes without any voting rights or input into the EU.

[ralphrj]

London424 said:

You mean like the say about the financial transaction tax? Yeah that went well.

Is the financial transation tax in force in the UK?

[London424]

ralphrj said:

London424 said:

You mean like the say about the financial transaction tax? Yeah that went well.

Is the financial transation tax in force in the UK?

It's not in force anywhere just yet. Timetabled for 2014, but the UK has launched a legal appeal and even those that voted for it are starting to realise how stupid it is.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-22227019

http://www.economist.com/news/finance-and-economic...

[vonuber]

The problem is with the EU is that it is built on compromise, debate and working together, which is a concept UK politics in general cannot grasp.

[Mr_B]

vonuber said:

The problem is with the EU is that it is built on compromise, debate and working together, which is a concept UK politics in general cannot grasp.

At least you didn't say democracy

[Mr_B]

AJS- said:

All this "having a say" sounds good, but who actually has a say in what?

"Our" trade commissioner is Baroness Ashton. Who the hell is she? From her Wiki page I can see only a left wing activist who was given a seat in the Lords by Blair, then appointed to the Commission by Broon.

Previously we had Peter Mandelson, Neil Kinnock, and a list of other people I don't like, which you can view here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_Com...

Exactly this.

[AJS-]

vonuber said:

The problem is with the EU is that it is built on compromise, debate and working together, which is a concept UK politics in general cannot grasp.

I dunno, they seem to work pretty well together when it suits them. Covering up expenses scandals, agreeing that MMGW is a terrible thing that must be dealt with through extremely high taxes on inelastic goods like petrol, and that the European Commission, with it's far ranging powers and extremely high salaries is a good thing.

[PRTVR]

vonuber said:

The problem is with the EU is that it is built on compromise, debate and working together, which is a concept UK politics in general cannot grasp.

It may appear to work like that but in reality its gangs out to look after there own interest,
take the vote on increased spending, we the UK as a net contributor wanted to freeze contributions,
The countries that are net recipients voted against,as there are more of them than us, we end up paying more,
compromise debate yea right.

[London424]

PRTVR said:

vonuber said:

The problem is with the EU is that it is built on compromise, debate and working together, which is a concept UK politics in general cannot grasp.

It may appear to work like that but in reality its gangs out to look after there own interest,
take the vote on increased spending, we the UK as a net contributor wanted to freeze contributions,
The countries that are net recipients voted against,as there are more of them than us, we end up paying more,
compromise debate yea right.

And this at the same time that austerity is being imposed on a large number of countries.

[mph1977]

vonuber said:

London424 said:

So it'll have to be fully EU compliant but we wouldn't be paying for the EU...sounds like a win to me.

Except you lose your say in actually shaping them to not disadvantage your own industry.

and as well as any marginal costs in EU compliance you'll have the disadvantages of customs duties etc

[ralphrj]

mph1977 said:

vonuber said:

London424 said:

So it'll have to be fully EU compliant but we wouldn't be paying for the EU...sounds like a win to me.

Except you lose your say in actually shaping them to not disadvantage your own industry.

and as well as any marginal costs in EU compliance you'll have the disadvantages of customs duties etc

Yes to the marginal costs of compliance but you wouldn't necessarily have to pay customs duties.

If we signed an European Economic Area treaty with the EU the UK could operate within the single market just as any other EU country. The disadvantage of this is that we would have to make a very sizeable contribution to the EU social fund. This would be less than we pay now but, as mentioned above, we would have no influence on policy.

[mph1977]

ralphrj said:

mph1977 said:

vonuber said:

London424 said:

So it'll have to be fully EU compliant but we wouldn't be paying for the EU...sounds like a win to me.

Except you lose your say in actually shaping them to not disadvantage your own industry.

and as well as any marginal costs in EU compliance you'll have the disadvantages of customs duties etc

Yes to the marginal costs of compliance but you wouldn't necessarily have to pay customs duties.

If we signed an European Economic Area treaty with the EU the UK could operate within the single market just as any other EU country. The disadvantage of this is that we would have to make a very sizeable contribution to the EU social fund. This would be less than we pay now but, as mentioned above, we would have no influence on policy.

but UJKIP and the tories 'swival eyed loons' want out in toto , also any degree of in requires the EU and member states to play fair, given the Scottish devolution issue is all ready causing disquiet ...

[The Don of Croy]

davepoth said:

Good reasons for EU membership:

Free trade. Bear in mind this is proper, no more complicated than if you were selling to someone five miles down the road free trade. That has made a huge difference to how business is conducted in Europe and is probably the best benefit.

My company regularly exports goods to the EU, Switzerland, Norway and north Africa. Exports to the EU are a doddle, except there is the EC quarterly return / sales list to do. No biggy.

Correpsonding exports outside the EU just require 4 or 6 invoice copies appended to the goods. Again no biggy.

davepoth said:

Free movement. Again, moving to any EU nation, be it for work or pleasure, is as easy as moving down the road. Imagine if it was like trying to move to the USA. Obviously this has problems going the other way for us.

In theory a good and wonderful thing, if you speaka da lingo. In practice, could be the start of a nightmare for those of us paying tax to fund welfare...

davepoth said:

EU directives. We moan, but a lot of them have been quite useful. That's the joy of a dictatorship - things actually get done. As an example: You like your holiday beaches to be not covered in raw sewerage, don't you? That was Europe. If we'd been left to our own devices we'd probably still be paddling in poo.

I cannot recall paddling in poo, but do remember oil and tar pollution being a problem - coming from ships flushing out their tanks. Did Europe stop that also?

I'd like to think that any advanced society would eventually bore of flushing solids into the seawater, but if Europe is the driving force then all well and good.

davepoth said:

And of course, let's not forget the biggie. No major European war for 68 years, which looks to be a record.

Shared honours with NATO and the Warsaw Pact, i'd wager.

[Engineer1]

I suspect if we leave Europe then as soon as the leases expire, Nissan, Honda and other companies who use the UK as a convient European base will leave for a European home.

[The Don of Croy]

Engineer1 said:

I suspect if we leave Europe then as soon as the leases expire, Nissan, Honda and other companies who use the UK as a convient European base will leave for a European home.

Yes, that is entirely possible.

Unless, of course, it is more profitable for them to produce here. Any tariffs EU might want to slap onto UK made cars can easily be applied to EU made cars, one would imagine.

[mph1977]

The Don of Croy said:

Engineer1 said:

I suspect if we leave Europe then as soon as the leases expire, Nissan, Honda and other companies who use the UK as a convient European base will leave for a European home.

Yes, that is entirely possible.

Unless, of course, it is more profitable for them to produce here. Any tariffs EU might want to slap onto UK made cars can easily be applied to EU made cars, one would imagine.

but if they all ready have access to (e.g. Renault for Nissan) / their own plants inside the EU then the decision is simple - if the UK was out and the tarriffs sufficient for it to be an issue they may as well build elsewhere and rationalise the number of plants ...

[AJS-]

So that really looks like a No on any positive case. Trade is a good thing, no surprise there. Some standardisation and some commonality of regulations is convenient. And freedom of movement brings benefits as well as some problems. None of it really points towards a compelling reason to abandon national democracy and remain in an increasingly restrictive union.

Maybe a better question would be how to best retain the useful bits? Where does the balance lie in terms of our own policies and the aims of negotiating a new arrangement with the remainder of the EU?

[Du1point8]

mph1977 said:

The Don of Croy said:

Engineer1 said:

I suspect if we leave Europe then as soon as the leases expire, Nissan, Honda and other companies who use the UK as a convient European base will leave for a European home.

Yes, that is entirely possible.

Unless, of course, it is more profitable for them to produce here. Any tariffs EU might want to slap onto UK made cars can easily be applied to EU made cars, one would imagine.

but if they all ready have access to (e.g. Renault for Nissan) / their own plants inside the EU then the decision is simple - if the UK was out and the tarriffs sufficient for it to be an issue they may as well build elsewhere and rationalise the number of plants ...

Instead we should lose 1000s of jobs thanks to the CAP and raising sugar prices meaning Tate & Lyle now have to shut down their last remaining refinery.

[mph1977]

Du1point8 said:

Instead we should lose 1000s of jobs thanks to the CAP and raising sugar prices meaning Tate & Lyle now have to shut down their last remaining refinery.

despite the huge environmental costs of cane sugar in terms of food miles ...