child minder. Think she is taking the p**s
Discussion
CM's do not normally present a "contract", it's commonly an "agreement" that has no termination date and therefore no duration period. (Actually it might have a maximum duration date set to the end of a term for example, but it's over-ruled by the termination of services notice.)
It's presented generally as "terms and conditions whilst you decide you need the CM's services". Should you not wish to continue with those services you give the required notice at any time, the duration of which is agreed in the T&C's.
I've never met a childminder who thought of it in any other way than that, and as nothing else but self employed. Definately not as a contract of employment, or something they might later use to support a claim in an employment law court. Not to so they couldn't, but I've never heard of it. So unlikely.
If the OP was never presented with a typical list of T&C's before it's because the CM wasn't being particularly professional. I agree with some of the conditions being a little bit of a stretch (i.e. paid bank holidays), but the CM being paid (or partially paid) whilst the OP is away on holiday with the kids, or the kids are sick at home, is quite common for example.
If she's good and you want to keep her then I'm sure you can work something out.
It's presented generally as "terms and conditions whilst you decide you need the CM's services". Should you not wish to continue with those services you give the required notice at any time, the duration of which is agreed in the T&C's.
I've never met a childminder who thought of it in any other way than that, and as nothing else but self employed. Definately not as a contract of employment, or something they might later use to support a claim in an employment law court. Not to so they couldn't, but I've never heard of it. So unlikely.
If the OP was never presented with a typical list of T&C's before it's because the CM wasn't being particularly professional. I agree with some of the conditions being a little bit of a stretch (i.e. paid bank holidays), but the CM being paid (or partially paid) whilst the OP is away on holiday with the kids, or the kids are sick at home, is quite common for example.
If she's good and you want to keep her then I'm sure you can work something out.
There is no difference between a contract and an agreement. Every contract is an agreement. Every agreement intended to be legally binding and supported by consideration is a contract (I am summarising). Labelling is irrelevant. The law does not depend on magic words. Really, dudes, contract law is not all that difficult, but it's not something that you can just pick up from the back of a Cheerios packet, either.
uk89camaro said:
Clearly you don't like paying for the service that allows your wife to work, and keep other people in gainful employment. Good on her for sure.
Maybe I misunderstood. I thought the OP was paying for her services - just that he didn't want to get fisted by a manipulative child minder?I wonder if the experts could or would advise on a fixed term contract? So you'd say to the CM that it's a renewable 6 month contract?
I have a gardener who sits on his arse for a few hours every week - is he likely to want holiday pay? Actually, I doubt he can read, so probably not.
Breadvan72 said:
There is no difference between a contract and an agreement. Every contract is an agreement. Every agreement intended to be legally binding and supported by consideration is a contract (I am summarising). Labelling is irrelevant. The law does not depend on magic words. Really, dudes, contract law is not all that difficult, but it's not something that you can just pick up from the back of a Cheerios packet, either.
I don't disagree, I think I alluded to that in my post. I was making the point that I'd never heard of it used that way before. It does frustrate me when people focus on the minute possibility of what might be possible, rather than the most probable.
NDA said:
uk89camaro said:
Clearly you don't like paying for the service that allows your wife to work, and keep other people in gainful employment. Good on her for sure.
Maybe I misunderstood. I thought the OP was paying for her services - just that he didn't want to get fisted by a manipulative child minder?I wonder if the experts could or would advise on a fixed term contract? So you'd say to the CM that it's a renewable 6 month contract?
She wants a pay rise.
Either he negotiates (based on a number of factors, but including VFM based on local conditions), pays it, or parts company.
It's his choice. The same choice all of us who work have. We all have different sets of conditions by which we calculate our worth, and have to consider the risks associated with applying them to leverage a rise in income.
uk89camaro said:
NDA said:
uk89camaro said:
Clearly you don't like paying for the service that allows your wife to work, and keep other people in gainful employment. Good on her for sure.
Maybe I misunderstood. I thought the OP was paying for her services - just that he didn't want to get fisted by a manipulative child minder?I wonder if the experts could or would advise on a fixed term contract? So you'd say to the CM that it's a renewable 6 month contract?
Indeed he is paying the CM.
She wants a pay rise.
Either he negotiates (based on a number of factors, but including VFM based on local conditions), pays it, or parts company.
It's his choice. The same choice all of us who work have. We all have different sets of conditions by which we calculate our worth, and have to consider the risks associated with applying them to leverage a rise in income.
It's been my experience that most people have a rather inflated opinion of their worth.
Vajazzle said:
CM in question works out of her own premises and looks after other children as well as the OP's. She pays her own tax and NI and I would presume she's fully qualified and insured and her address is registered as a business address for these purposes.
well she better be, as i will have my revenge....... anonymous call to HMRC and local authority 
firemanSimon said:
No no I will be polite. Just tell her I'm going to go another way with my child care this new coming term. Must say I'm bit angry I can't tell her to do one.................Do I say I can't agree to the terms of her contract and leave it at that, and continue to use her till end of term or sever all work with her now ?
Just tell her that she is self employed and that her contract/agreement/T&C's has certain points that are not agreeable to you.My two sisters are childminders and have 'contracts' in place with the parents of children they mind. Some people accept them in full where as others discuss them.
Talk to your CM and come to an agreement, they won't want to lose two children, whereas you don't want to lose a CM if they're good. The fact you've come on here without discussing it with them first tells me they're either not great or you don't actually appreciate them, just IMHO
firemanSimon said:
Vajazzle said:
CM in question works out of her own premises and looks after other children as well as the OP's. She pays her own tax and NI and I would presume she's fully qualified and insured and her address is registered as a business address for these purposes.
well she better be, as i will have my revenge....... anonymous call to HMRC and local authority firemanSimon in another thread said:
i have a tv in my in my industrial unit. I don't have a license !!!
Balls to them. I pay for my house, but not the office. been that way for 2 years. Had the letters and visits. Dont let them in and tell then where to go. Dont agree with it in the first place and will not be paying for it twice. fk that.
Just sayin Balls to them. I pay for my house, but not the office. been that way for 2 years. Had the letters and visits. Dont let them in and tell then where to go. Dont agree with it in the first place and will not be paying for it twice. fk that.
firemanSimon said:
well she better be, as i will have my revenge....... anonymous call to HMRC and local authority
Oh dear. My Sisters love Parents like you
Instead of discussing it with her you are already plotting "revenge". This is the person you trust with your valuable children and you basically couldn't give two f
ks. This is the person who wipes your childrens arses, wipes away their tears, and cares for them.BTW reporting them to the local authority is a waste of time, it's Ofsted and PACEY you need.
Edited by Sir Bagalot on Tuesday 14th May 21:46
firemanSimon said:
Vajazzle said:
CM in question works out of her own premises and looks after other children as well as the OP's. She pays her own tax and NI and I would presume she's fully qualified and insured and her address is registered as a business address for these purposes.
well she better be, as i will have my revenge....... anonymous call to HMRC and local authority You sound like an Arse and perhaps she wants shot of you as customers good luck finding a new CM because if your attitude on here is anything to go by your going to need it.
I'm sure you will investigate the new CM with just as much care as you did this one ...... Oh your cheap you will do!
Sir Bagalot said:
firemanSimon said:
well she better be, as i will have my revenge....... anonymous call to HMRC and local authority
Oh dear. My Sisters love Parents like you Instead of discussing it with her you are already plotting "revenge". This is the person you trust with your valuable children and you basically couldn't give two fks. This is the person who wipes your childrens arses, wipes away their tears, and cares for them.Vajazzle said:
And also wants to shaft him for sick and holiday pay when he doesn't have to pay. If she wants to be an employee then fine, but if she wants to be self-employed with all the 'benefits' that brings then she's gotta suck it up.
One final time.People who are self employed decide/target how much they want to earn over a given set of working weeks, then divide the target earnings by 52 weeks. So, in theory everybody who is self employed is already stiffing you for holiday pay. Go and demand the f
ker back!The CM just didn't phrase it correctly.
Vajazzle said:
Sir Bagalot said:
Oh dear. My Sisters love Parents like you Instead of discussing it with her you are already plotting "revenge". This is the person you trust with your valuable children and you basically couldn't give two fks. This is the person who wipes your childrens arses, wipes away their tears, and cares for them.
And also wants to shaft him for sick and holiday pay when he doesn't have to pay. If she wants to be an employee then fine, but if she wants to be self-employed with all the 'benefits' that brings then she's gotta suck it up. Instead of discussing it with her you are already plotting "revenge". This is the person you trust with your valuable children and you basically couldn't give two fks. This is the person who wipes your childrens arses, wipes away their tears, and cares for them.Perhaps this should have been planned prior to the arrival of the child given the circumstances and researched thoroughly, rather than plucking a name off a message board. Id be careful what the child thinks too depending on the age .
I asked my own childminder about this. She showed me a forum she uses- which is to childminders what this site is to petrolheads! "Largest forum and news site for childminders"....(Childcare.co.uk)
Amongst all the sub-fora they discuss paperwork: judging from the queries on that message board I think quite possible that the OP's childminder has an "Ofsted" due and has to have paperwork in place for that. Another sub-forum looks at fees, tax, book-keeping and how much they pay an accountant each year. So, on the balance of probabilities per the numerous posts from those actually working as childminders, this profession is predominantly "self-employed".
There is one thread though - which is probably very interesting to the OP: "Bank Holidays - do I charge and if so how much?" The opening poster on the "childcare" site is thinking of "amending her contracts to charge bank holidays as she desrves some paid leave". Other childminders have suggested she do this for NEW parents, but NOT for existing ones. Others suggest charging a "retainer" to keep the place open for the child.
Amongst all the sub-fora they discuss paperwork: judging from the queries on that message board I think quite possible that the OP's childminder has an "Ofsted" due and has to have paperwork in place for that. Another sub-forum looks at fees, tax, book-keeping and how much they pay an accountant each year. So, on the balance of probabilities per the numerous posts from those actually working as childminders, this profession is predominantly "self-employed".
There is one thread though - which is probably very interesting to the OP: "Bank Holidays - do I charge and if so how much?" The opening poster on the "childcare" site is thinking of "amending her contracts to charge bank holidays as she desrves some paid leave". Other childminders have suggested she do this for NEW parents, but NOT for existing ones. Others suggest charging a "retainer" to keep the place open for the child.
Yes. The CM agreed to carry on with the current agreement in place. I however was not at this meeting as I was busy. So it was only the wife and the CM. However I have had a phone conversation with the CM. It did not go well. Few heated words on both sides. Her telling me how hard her job is and how under valued she feels. Then me telling her I would not be held to ransom over her self-employed-employed misgivings. The crux of it is the wife wants to stay with her. I want to get a au pair. Turning into a bit of a saga now
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