IAM Experiences/What put me/you off?
Discussion
SK425 said:
Other people will not be attracted because improving their driving is something that is of no interest to them
As I think somebody once said, "You can criticise a man for anything, including his performance in bed, but you must never criticise his driving".
Almost everybody thinks they're a good driver. The others know they're not, but don't want to be told how bad they are by a man 'patronising' them.
Craikeybaby said:
I've looked at the IAM a few times and keep getting put off by the image.
That's really no reason not to do it, is it? Approach it positively. You've nothing to lose and having somebody other than your spouse or friends looking objectively at your driving can only be a good thing. Some people learn a lot from these courses.Craikeybaby said:
I want improve my road driving and am swaying towards the fast track course due to the professional instructors.
It probably depends on your current level of knowledge/skill. If you are confident that you are already driving to a good standard and in-line with their ideas then it may be for you. If not, then the "Fast Track" may not be long enough to consolidate the ideas and may just be a case of 'passing a test'. MC Bodge said:
Craikeybaby said:
I've looked at the IAM a few times and keep getting put off by the image.
That's really no reason not to do it, is it? Approach it positively. You've nothing to lose and having somebody other than your spouse or friends looking objectively at your driving can only be a good thing. Some people learn a lot from these courses.vonhosen said:
You declare that all those out there are unconsciously incompetent, but are they really? I'd contend that the vast majority out there are not actually incompetent at all. Sure they could be better (as we all could) but declaring all non-advanced members as incompetent with a superior attitude is not likely to turn them to 'seekers'. It's the sort of aloof attitude that keeps enthusiasts away, let alone those who aren't particularly interested in driving. If the advanced clubs can't get enthusiasts on board they aren't likely to make much headway in a wider arena.
Unconscious incompetence doesn't mean that other drivers are driving in an incompetent way. I am surprised and disappointed that you seek to place such an interpretation on my words.Unconscious Incompetence has nothing to do with performing a task incompetently but everything to do with the state of mind of the individual in relation to increasing his already existing skill level.
It is defined as:
1. the person is not aware of the existence or relevance of the skill area
2. the person is not aware that they have a particular deficiency in the area concerned
3. the person might deny the relevance or usefulness of the new skill
4. the person must become conscious of their incompetence before development of the new skill or learning can begin
5. the aim of the trainee or learner and the trainer or teacher is to move the person into the 'conscious competence' stage, by demonstrating the skill or ability and the benefit that it will bring to the person's effectiveness
Let's forget about your perceived attitude of superiority on the part of advanced drivers for a moment. I think you would have difficulty in asserting that the first three items above do not apply to the vast majority of the 35 million UK licence holders. Clearly they do.
This and items 4 and 5 above are what I was alluding to in my earlier posts.
I'm surprised that you allowed your prejudices and preconceptions about some IAM and RoSPA members to lead you to draw a wholly unjustified conclusion of an alleged attitude of superiority on my part in your response to my post.
Edited by johnao on Wednesday 22 May 21:20
johnao said:
vonhosen said:
You declare that all those out there are unconsciously incompetent, but are they really? I'd contend that the vast majority out there are not actually incompetent at all. Sure they could be better (as we all could) but declaring all non-advanced members as incompetent with a superior attitude is not likely to turn them to 'seekers'. It's the sort of aloof attitude that keeps enthusiasts away, let alone those who aren't particularly interested in driving. If the advanced clubs can't get enthusiasts on board they aren't likely to make much headway in a wider arena.
Unconscious incompetence doesn't mean that other drivers are driving in an incompetent way. I am surprised and disappointed that you seek to place such an interpretation on my words.Unconscious Incompetence has nothing to do with performing a task incompetently but everything to do with the state of mind of the individual in relation to increasing his already existing skill level.
It is defined as:
1. the person is not aware of the existence or relevance of the skill area
2. the person is not aware that they have a particular deficiency in the area concerned
3. the person might deny the relevance or usefulness of the new skill
4. the person must become conscious of their incompetence before development of the new skill or learning can begin
5. the aim of the trainee or learner and the trainer or teacher is to move the person into the 'conscious competence' stage, by demonstrating the skill or ability and the benefit that it will bring to the person's effectiveness
Let's forget about your perceived attitude of superiority on the part of advanced drivers for a moment. I think you would have difficulty in asserting that the first three items above do not apply to the vast majority of the 35 million UK licence holders. Clearly they do.
This and items 4 and 5 above are what I was alluding to in my earlier posts.
I'm surprised that you allowed your prejudices and preconceptions about some IAM and RoSPA members to lead you to draw a wholly unjustified conclusion of an alleged attitude of superiority on my part in your response to my post.
I don't have to worry about the IAM image, they do.
vonhosen said:
Perhaps you should choose your words more carefully then.
I don't have to worry about the IAM image, they do.
I don't have to worry about the IAM image, they do.
the 4 Stage model of skill development is discussed in nearly every trainer/instructor/teacher training i'm aware of it's also discussed in some job/ vocation / professional education training.
The four stages being
- unconcious incompetence aka ' doesn't know what he doesn't know'
- concious incompetence
- concious competence
- unconcious competence aka ' can do as expert without
making an effort'
mph1977 said:
vonhosen said:
Perhaps you should choose your words more carefully then.
I don't have to worry about the IAM image, they do.
I don't have to worry about the IAM image, they do.
the 4 Stage model of skill development is discussed in nearly every trainer/instructor/teacher training i'm aware of it's also discussed in some job/ vocation / professional education training.
The four stages being
- unconcious incompetence aka ' doesn't know what he doesn't know'
- concious incompetence
- concious competence
- unconcious competence aka ' can do as expert without
making an effort'
The OP started a thread because of his negative experience & it's a regular feature here. That's views expressed from within the organisation, not people without experience of it.
johnao said 'The IAM is focused on trying to sell a product, driver improvement'. It's not, it's much narrower than that, it's about doing it their way & if you're not in, you're out. Incompetent is not doing it their way.
vonhosen said:
johnao said 'The IAM is focused on trying to sell a product, driver improvement'. It's not, it's much narrower than that
Mulling that over, I don't think that's fair comment either. The IAM's aim is driver improvement. That they have chosen Roadcraft-style driving as the tool to use in trying to achieve that aim does not imply that the organisation believes that Roadcraft-style driving is the only possible route to improvement. (Notwithstanding the fact that, unhelpfully, there are individuals within the organisation who seem to have failed to appreciate that point).Undoubtedly there are people within the IAM who are seeking to improve the IAM. For example, when I was an IAM Observer, all the Examiners I met were working hard to ensure that local IAM Groups took a more flexible approach. Now we have the IAM Forum, there's many a post by Examiners encouraging flexibility and common sense.
Von will say that this is within the context of a particular style. I agree with him. Nonetheless, whilst Roadcraft isn't the only approach to greater driving skill, I'd argue that 'the system' remains an excellent approach to heightened skill levels. (Particularly when 'the system' is used flexibly, as has always been intended to be the case.)
Von will say that this is within the context of a particular style. I agree with him. Nonetheless, whilst Roadcraft isn't the only approach to greater driving skill, I'd argue that 'the system' remains an excellent approach to heightened skill levels. (Particularly when 'the system' is used flexibly, as has always been intended to be the case.)
vonhosen said:
johnao said 'The IAM is focused on trying to sell a product, driver improvement'. It's not, it's much narrower than that, it's about doing it their way & if you're not in, you're out. Incompetent is not doing it their way.
Do you mean the methods here, rather than the System?Pull-Push is not mandatory, not ratcheting the handbrake is not mandatory, the Holy Grail of advanced driving "only indicate if there's someone to indicate to" is not mandatory (etc.).
Lots of Observers focus on outcomes rather than specific methods (and their Associates still pass the Test (not saying that's necessarily the goal)). The trouble is there are a wide range of Observing standards, but IAM is working on improving that.
vonhosen said:
Perhaps you should choose your words more carefully then.
Can't think that my choice of words was wrong or misleading or could have been more carefully chosen. You might consider, perhaps, the manner in which you misread, misunderstood or chose to misinterpret them.Rather than avoiding the issue that we're discussing by making diversionary comments like the one you posted above, perhaps you could address my earlier comment:
"... I think you would have difficulty in asserting that the first three items above do not apply to the vast majority of the 35 million UK licence holders."
Would you have difficulty, or not?
vonhosen said:
johnao said 'The IAM is focused on trying to sell a product, driver improvement'. It's not, it's much narrower than that, it's about doing it their way & if you're not in, you're out. Incompetent is not doing it their way.
For the purpose of my argument,[that the IAM are selling an educational product that the vast majority of drivers don't believe that they are in need of], it matters not a jot as to how the IAM or RoSPA are delivering that driver improvement product. Whether it's too narrow an approach matters only to a limited number of individuals, like yourself, for example. For anyone to concern themselves with the detail of the whys and wherefores of how the IAM delivers its driver improvement course completely misses the wider point that the vast majority, like 99%, of the 35 million UK licence holders do not believe that their driving is in need of improvement or can't be bothered to do anything about it. They are completely oblivious as to whether or not the IAM is a narrow-minded deliverer of narrow-focused driver improvement courses because they've never even heard of the organisation. The main focus must be to try and persuade some of that 99% that they could benefit from further driver training. I won't even mention unconscious incompetence as I'll never hear the end of it!SK425 said:
vonhosen said:
Incompetent is not doing it their way.
That is not fair comment IMO. I don't believe it is true for the sense of 'incompetent' that johnao actually meant, nor the sense that you apparently thought he meant.also despite all the complaints otherwise i've let to see anyone actually put forward an alternative to Roadcraft and 'Systenm' based training for driver development
another layman descriptor for one of the four stages
conscious incompetence " bloody hell, there's more to this <skill> that i thought "
also if we divorce this from driving for a moment , but apply something all PHers ( in very likelihood) do ... typing
lots of people can 'type' but they 'chicken type' - one finger or one finger on each hand 'point and peck' - yet a trained typist (TT) from any time in the past 120 years would say " you can't type - you type like a chicken -point and peck "
(PHer ) " what do you mean i can't type, aren't I typing now ? " - while point and pecking their way through the conversation -
doesn't know what he (PHer) doesn't know
if the PHer listens and picks up some of the basics like 'home line' and the areas of the key board for different fingers then perhaps the metaphorical lightbulb illuminates - this is conscious incompetence, if the PHer continues to learn to type 'properly' he reaches the stage of conscious competence - he can touch type at a decent rate but it takes a lot of mental effort - and with practice you reach unconscious competence.
mph1977 said:
also if we divorce this from driving for a moment , but apply something all PHers ( in very likelihood) do ... typing
lots of people can 'type' but they 'chicken type' - one finger or one finger on each hand 'point and peck' - yet a trained typist (TT) from any time in the past 120 years would say " you can't type - you type like a chicken -point and peck "
(PHer ) " what do you mean i can't type, aren't I typing now ? " - while point and pecking their way through the conversation -
doesn't know what he (PHer) doesn't know
if the PHer listens and picks up some of the basics like 'home line' and the areas of the key board for different fingers then perhaps the metaphorical lightbulb illuminates - this is conscious incompetence, if the PHer continues to learn to type 'properly' he reaches the stage of conscious competence - he can touch type at a decent rate but it takes a lot of mental effort - and with practice you reach unconscious competence.
I quite like that analogy.lots of people can 'type' but they 'chicken type' - one finger or one finger on each hand 'point and peck' - yet a trained typist (TT) from any time in the past 120 years would say " you can't type - you type like a chicken -point and peck "
(PHer ) " what do you mean i can't type, aren't I typing now ? " - while point and pecking their way through the conversation -
doesn't know what he (PHer) doesn't know
if the PHer listens and picks up some of the basics like 'home line' and the areas of the key board for different fingers then perhaps the metaphorical lightbulb illuminates - this is conscious incompetence, if the PHer continues to learn to type 'properly' he reaches the stage of conscious competence - he can touch type at a decent rate but it takes a lot of mental effort - and with practice you reach unconscious competence.
For my part, I am aware that I type with just one or two fingers on each hand. I am aware that touch typing is out there. I've got a vague idea of what the home line is and how I would use my hands if I could touch type, but I can't do it. I guess that puts me at conscious incompetence. And as far as typing goes I am quite happy to remain there - the way I do it works perfectly well for me as it is. So without even knowing whether such an organisation exists, or what its attitudes or training methods might be, I am not seeking the Institute of Advanced Typists.
johnao said:
The main focus must be to try and persuade some of that 99% that they could benefit from further driver training.
The problem is two fold. The government (for example) does not promote personal development and/or education with regard to driving skills. It's actually just not that important. The effort/cost versus reward is just not there. And even if they did, the IAM is not geared up to address the need. Obviously they don't have the scale, that's neither here nor there. Their approach and ability only suits a few drivers. Those that get on well with the personalities and slightly arcane methods and constructs involved.I class myself as consciously semi-competent (hehe). I failed to get anything out of local IAM group as I didn't hit it off with the people involved. I found it crushingly condescending and found the approach to be completely lacking in structure and pace.
I've had some brilliant driver coaching in my time and it's the most fantastic experience. But unfortunately the IAM is stuck in a declining niche and won't break out.
Bert
Hi johnao,
johnao said:
For the purpose of my argument,[that the IAM are selling an educational product that the vast majority of drivers don't believe that they are in need of], it matters not a jot as to how the IAM or RoSPA are delivering that driver improvement product.
How training is delivered can have a big impact:- It impacts word of mouth. In motorcycling, BikeSafe gets nothing but praise, because of the way in which the police deliver training. In contrast, the IAM hasn’t attracted the same word of mouth recommendation. Both follow essentially the same syllabus, but deliver the training in a different manner.
- Training delivery impacts retention. It’s one reason why not every Associate completes Skills for Life.
johnao said:
... the wider point that the vast majority, like 99%, of the 35 million UK licence holders do not believe that their driving is in need of improvement or can't be bothered to do anything about it.
Adults choose to learn when it solves a problem of immediate and personal relevance. If I’ve driven safely from A to B for year, then I won’t have a lot of motivation to invest time and money in advanced driving, because I’m not experiencing any particular problem. In other words:SK425 said:
... I am quite happy to remain there - the way I do it works perfectly well for me as it is.
Moreover, the benefits of advanced driving are not always clear until you’ve experienced them.Gassing Station | Advanced Driving | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff