Legal advice regarding regarding Ebay sale/purchase
Discussion
Dudes, please look up the difference between affect and effect!
Whether or not the car's salvage history affected the car's market value, the seller had no legal obligation to mention the history unless asked about it. That may seem harsh, but that's the legal position. It appears that the seller may or may not have known of the history, but the key point is that this was not a contract that required full disclosure. Compare, for example, a contract of insurance, which does require full disclosure.
Anyway, I assume that this dispute may have gone away, if the OP made an offer of a modest sum to buy off the claim, which would be a low value claim in any event.
Whether or not the car's salvage history affected the car's market value, the seller had no legal obligation to mention the history unless asked about it. That may seem harsh, but that's the legal position. It appears that the seller may or may not have known of the history, but the key point is that this was not a contract that required full disclosure. Compare, for example, a contract of insurance, which does require full disclosure.
Anyway, I assume that this dispute may have gone away, if the OP made an offer of a modest sum to buy off the claim, which would be a low value claim in any event.
POORCARDEALER said:
Cat D effects the value hugely.
Perhaps - yet has nothing to do with anything here. Any check should have been made prior to clicking the "bid" button.You don't bid for an option to buy and nless its not "as described" the sale should have been concluded.
(Please don't say it wasn't "as described" due to ommittance of HPi status).
G.
If one of the rear wheels was missing, should that be mentioned? Would omitting that fact come under 'not as described'? Or if, for instance, the car only drove in reverse?
Assuming that reasonable people would agree that such things should be mentioned, then it becomes a matter of degree and not a matter of principle.
Assuming that reasonable people would agree that such things should be mentioned, then it becomes a matter of degree and not a matter of principle.
singlecoil said:
If one of the rear wheels was missing, should that be mentioned? Would omitting that fact come under 'not as described'? Or if, for instance, the car only drove in reverse?
Assuming that reasonable people would agree that such things should be mentioned, then it becomes a matter of degree and not a matter of principle.
Fit for purpose or a non/disclosed fundamental issue regarding such basic assumptions effecting use is totally different from Hpi Status which although may affect the value, is of detriment to nothing else nor [in this issue] any other factor of the description of *this* auction Assuming that reasonable people would agree that such things should be mentioned, then it becomes a matter of degree and not a matter of principle.
(Refer to previous colour comment on previous page, my first contribution).
G.
Edited by Gallen on Wednesday 19th June 08:58
Gallen said:
POORCARDEALER said:
Cat D effects the value hugely.
Perhaps - yet has nothing to do with anything here. Any check should have been made prior to clicking the "bid" button.You don't bid for an option to buy and nless its not "as described" the sale should have been concluded.
(Please don't say it wasn't "as described" due to ommittance of HPi status).
G.
HTH
singlecoil said:
Would omitting that fact come under 'not as described'? Or if, for instance, the car only drove in reverse?
HPI status in itself may or may not affect value, but not condition or working order, which is why it is different to the items you list above. There is no obligation to declare the HPI status of a vehicle without first being asked. If something is of importance to a buyer, the buyer should take care to ask about it before committing to a purchase. Consumers buying from other consumers might not be sophisticated purchasers of goods, but neither are they children in need of hand holding. singlecoil said:
If one of the rear wheels was missing, should that be mentioned? Would omitting that fact come under 'not as described'? Or if, for instance, the car only drove in reverse?
Assuming that reasonable people would agree that such things should be mentioned, then it becomes a matter of degree and not a matter of principle.
Snowboy likes this comment.Assuming that reasonable people would agree that such things should be mentioned, then it becomes a matter of degree and not a matter of principle.
The eBay rules require the seller to post all relevant information.
The ebay rules also have some provision for the sale to be cancelled if the car is not as described.
There's a question of whether can eBay auction is considered an auction, a sale, a sale contract or something else that can be described in law or not.
Some people have tried to answer this with varying opinions - but there is no definite agreement or law.
EBay auctions exist in a strange place in law.
Although they appear to contain all the elements of a sale contract they also contain elements that make them 'not' a sales contract.
It is perhaps closer to a binding arbitration based sale.
Cat-d may not be the same as having a wheel missing.
But it could be compared to stains on the seats, scratched paintwork or other non-visible damage.
Edited by Snowboy on Wednesday 19th June 09:10
You keep saying that, Snowboy, but the ordinary law of contract applies with no difficulty to an eBay transaction such as that described in this thread. The notion that eBay operates in some legal limbo or grey area is incorrect. Parties buy and sell according to terms of dealing laid down by eBay. This is not a rare model for business. Many sectors of commerce do business on the basis of terms established by a third party body.
10 Pence Short said:
singlecoil said:
Would omitting that fact come under 'not as described'? Or if, for instance, the car only drove in reverse?
HPI status in itself may or may not affect value, but not condition or working order, which is why it is different to the items you list above. There is no obligation to declare the HPI status of a vehicle without first being asked. If something is of importance to a buyer, the buyer should take care to ask about it before committing to a purchase. Consumers buying from other consumers might not be sophisticated purchasers of goods, but neither are they children in need of hand holding. Little point on mentioning a pertinent fact and then dismissing it.
The situation is analogous to purchasing an antique which then turns out to be a fake.
PS: Snowboy - I am not sure what you mean by a 'binding arbitration based sale", but there is no arbitration here. Neither eBay nor any other arbitral tribunal has set the price or done anything that might happen when, for example, two commodities brokers arbitrate about an order of sugar.
If an item is described as a C18 table and turns out to be a C20 reproduction, it does not correspond with its description, and there has been a failure to sell that which was contracted for. That situation is quite distinct from the one described by the OP, in which the salvage status of the car was never raised before sale.
If an item is described as a C18 table and turns out to be a C20 reproduction, it does not correspond with its description, and there has been a failure to sell that which was contracted for. That situation is quite distinct from the one described by the OP, in which the salvage status of the car was never raised before sale.
Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 19th June 09:22
SC, your analogy is misconceived.
A car with a Cat D status is still the same vehicle and may be perfectly good. Your anology would work were the vehicle to be a 'ringer', but that is not what's in discussion.
It is also not a given that HPI status will affect a vehicle's value. Many vehicles sold through Ebay are old and worth little. In those circumstances I wouldn't expect the value of a £300 car to turn on HPI status.
A car with a Cat D status is still the same vehicle and may be perfectly good. Your anology would work were the vehicle to be a 'ringer', but that is not what's in discussion.
It is also not a given that HPI status will affect a vehicle's value. Many vehicles sold through Ebay are old and worth little. In those circumstances I wouldn't expect the value of a £300 car to turn on HPI status.
Imagine then if the car interior was disgusting (or we could use the hpi example) and I chose not to complete the sale.
I explained my reasons to eBay who agreed with me and cancelled the sale.
Perhaps PayPal got involved too and refunded my deposit.
How does that fit in with the law?
Could the seller still take the buyer to court?
Or have they lost that ability because they agreed to let eBay arbitrate the sale when they signed eBay's t&CD's?
I explained my reasons to eBay who agreed with me and cancelled the sale.
Perhaps PayPal got involved too and refunded my deposit.
How does that fit in with the law?
Could the seller still take the buyer to court?
Or have they lost that ability because they agreed to let eBay arbitrate the sale when they signed eBay's t&CD's?
Can you please show me the eBay clause you have in mind? I am not sure that the eBay terms amount to an agreement to arbitrate and exclude the jurisdiction of the courts, but if you can point me to a term that has that effect, thats fine. I'm not sufficiently interested in this to go and read the eBay terms just for the fun of it, but if you cut and paste the bit in question I'm happy to have a shuftie.
Anyone that used eBay and PayPal regularly knows full well that they often cancel sales and refund monies.
They do this based on their own interpretation of the facts of the sale without any courts of law getting involved.
If we accept that eBay can do this, how does that fit in with existing sales law?
Legally eBay has no right to get I evolved in such a way.
Unless both parties have agreed that eBay is allowed to settle any arguments.
I have no idea how that stands in law - but we know it happens.
So, I think my point stands that eBay sales are different to normal sales.
They do this based on their own interpretation of the facts of the sale without any courts of law getting involved.
If we accept that eBay can do this, how does that fit in with existing sales law?
Legally eBay has no right to get I evolved in such a way.
Unless both parties have agreed that eBay is allowed to settle any arguments.
I have no idea how that stands in law - but we know it happens.
So, I think my point stands that eBay sales are different to normal sales.
Snowboy said:
Anyone that used eBay and PayPal regularly knows full well that they often cancel sales and refund monies.
They do this based on their own interpretation of the facts of the sale without any courts of law getting involved.
If we accept that eBay can do this, how does that fit in with existing sales law?
Legally eBay has no right to get I evolved in such a way.
Unless both parties have agreed that eBay is allowed to settle any arguments.
I have no idea how that stands in law - but we know it happens.
So, I think my point stands that eBay sales are different to normal sales.
I would imagine buried in the T & C's of Paypal and EBay there will be clauses covering themselves to do almost as they please.They do this based on their own interpretation of the facts of the sale without any courts of law getting involved.
If we accept that eBay can do this, how does that fit in with existing sales law?
Legally eBay has no right to get I evolved in such a way.
Unless both parties have agreed that eBay is allowed to settle any arguments.
I have no idea how that stands in law - but we know it happens.
So, I think my point stands that eBay sales are different to normal sales.
10 Pence Short said:
SC, your analogy is misconceived.
A car with a Cat D status is still the same vehicle and may be perfectly good. Your anology would work were the vehicle to be a 'ringer', but that is not what's in discussion.
It is also not a given that HPI status will affect a vehicle's value. Many vehicles sold through Ebay are old and worth little. In those circumstances I wouldn't expect the value of a £300 car to turn on HPI status.
I know when I posted it that there would be some people who either couldn't, or wouldn't, see the analogy.A car with a Cat D status is still the same vehicle and may be perfectly good. Your anology would work were the vehicle to be a 'ringer', but that is not what's in discussion.
It is also not a given that HPI status will affect a vehicle's value. Many vehicles sold through Ebay are old and worth little. In those circumstances I wouldn't expect the value of a £300 car to turn on HPI status.
It's actually quite simple, but let me make it simpler. Someone buys an antique chair, and, after paying for an expert to examine it, discovers that it is a reproduction. Now it is still a chair, it can be sat on an d looks attractive to those that like that style. So it has maybe two thirds of what the buyer was expecting.
But he know that when he wants or needs to sell it, he will either have to 'not mention' the fact that it is a fake or tell buyers and get less money for it.
The analogy fits perfectly.
A cat D car will always sell for less than the same car without the unfortunate history.
SC, it is not that I cannot or will not see your analogy; it is that it doesn't work. No matter how many times and directions you try to push the square wooden block through he round hole, it will not fit.
A car with a 'hidden' Cat D status is still the same car as described. A reproduction sold as a genuine item is misrepresented and as such is not.
A car with a 'hidden' Cat D status is still the same car as described. A reproduction sold as a genuine item is misrepresented and as such is not.
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