Exiting the EU - What are the cons?

[mattnunn]

einsign said:

Because when the EU fails, the UK will remain strong and international business is looking here. Its not rocket science, where would you setup shop if you was a Japanese business man, Romania?

This is a good thing, but it seems you would like this country to simply follow others or blend in or fail rather than lead?

Phone is shut

See

You're wrong to assume the eu will collapse, it's not had an easy year but it looks ok to.me

You also misunderstand how and why foreign investment comes to the UK, one of th big reasons is our access to the wider eu skills resource

Edited by mattnunn on Wednesday 19th June 08:33

[RYH64E]

einsign said:

Its not rocket science, where would you setup shop if you was a Japanese business man, Romania?

Would said business man choose a country with guaranteed free and easy access to one of the largest markets in the world, that is also part of group of countries currently negotiating a free trade agreement with the USA, or would he choose a small island off the coast of Europe that's looking to go it alone and has no trade agreements in place? Probably not a particularly difficult decision. It isn't a choice between the UK and Romania, there's plenty of other EU countries to choose from

[einsign]

[Globs]

mattnunn said:

Globs said:

A small number of easily led politicians did that.

Reptilian halfbreed surely, say what you mean.

Well I suppose some of them could be described as reptiles, but the word halfbreed smacks of racism TBH, and John Major - arguably the worst of these with the signing into the EU itself, was as far as I'm aware a regular white english bloke.

Where do you get this crap from Matt, are you watching too much Spiderman these days?

[Globs]

RYH64E said:

Would said business man choose a country with guaranteed free and easy access to one of the largest markets in the world, that is also part of group of countries currently negotiating a free trade agreement with the USA, or would he choose a small island off the coast of Europe that's looking to go it alone and has no trade agreements in place?

He'd probably look at the available products and markets, and choose those.

I guess you quite often get frustrated when in Tesco, one of the leading retailers, when you can't find the lastest Hornby train or part for your car.
Yes - that's right - real businessman go to where the deals and the products are. The EU status of a country is entirely secondary and has never been a factor in any company I have worked in or with.

[mph1977]

Globs said:

He'd probably look at the available products and markets, and choose those.

Yes - that's right - real businessman go to where the deals and the products are. The EU status of a country is entirely secondary and has never been a factor in any company I have worked in or with.

So why in the 1980s did the Japanese Motor Manufacturers come to the UK? Arguably the could have saved money on building and wages by putting new plants in S Korea or SE Asia? Might it have something to do with being able to build and sell EU/ EEC built cars free of tariffs and Quotas ?

[Andy Zarse]

mph1977 said:

Globs said:

He'd probably look at the available products and markets, and choose those.

Yes - that's right - real businessman go to where the deals and the products are. The EU status of a country is entirely secondary and has never been a factor in any company I have worked in or with.

So why in the 1980s did the Japanese Motor Manufacturers come to the UK? Arguably the could have saved money on building and wages by putting new plants in S Korea or SE Asia? Might it have something to do with being able to build and sell EU/ EEC built cars free of tariffs and Quotas ?

All that is in the past and is thus irrelevant, at least according to the pro EU arguement...

[RYH64E]

Andy Zarse said:

mph1977 said:

Globs said:

He'd probably look at the available products and markets, and choose those.

Yes - that's right - real businessman go to where the deals and the products are. The EU status of a country is entirely secondary and has never been a factor in any company I have worked in or with.

So why in the 1980s did the Japanese Motor Manufacturers come to the UK? Arguably the could have saved money on building and wages by putting new plants in S Korea or SE Asia? Might it have something to do with being able to build and sell EU/ EEC built cars free of tariffs and Quotas ?

All that is in the past and is thus irrelevant, at least according to the pro EU arguement...

They did it because, as far as I'm aware, there's a tariff of 10% on cars imported into the EU. So made and sold in the EU means no import tariff, made outside and sold into the EU means a 10% tariff. That was, and continues to be, a big incentive for car manufacturers to locate their plants within the EU.

[Du1point8]

Why is it that if I did that as a company or a person, I would be up on taking bribes/blackmail... Yet the EU does it and it's legal?

Example being I own 2 companies, 1 that buys stock off a supplier and one that makes part of the equipment the supplier could use in making the stock it sells to me.

At the moment they use another supplier of the same part I create... I then tell them I won't buy unless they use my part making company.

Somehow I think I would be up on some type of charges doing that... Yet Eu is doing pretty much the same thing.

[RYH64E]

Du1point8 said:

Why is it that if I did that as a company or a person, I would be up on taking bribes/blackmail... Yet the EU does it and it's legal?

Legal and unlikely to change anytime soon.

Despite repeated assurances that we will be able to create a world wide free trade agreement as soon as we leave the EU the reality is that it isn't that easy. Protectionism and barriers to trade are facts of life, and I'd rather be inside pissing out than outside and being pissed on (to badly misquote Lyndon Johnson).

[Du1point8]

Yes we already know where you stand, long as you personally are ok, sod everyone else.

Would you change your tune if you were running tate & lyle? Or would you still want stay in the EU?

[s2art]

Ozzie Osmond said:

s2art said:

Why does the UK need to be anything other than the UK?

If UK had been "alright on its own" it would never have needed to spend 25 years trying to get into bed with the continentals. That was the question for 1973 - 40 years ago.

s2art said:

Being independent gives us more say on global regulation than being a small voice in the EU.

Oh how I would love to hear you spell out the detail of that one. Come on, let's hear your carefully crafted reasoning...

1) Yes, the UK politicians made a stupid mistake. They wanted to join the EEC because they thought the EEC would grow faster than other markets and could protect trade. They got it exactly wrong, the economic miracle in Europe after WW2 ran out of steam just as we joined. And as for protecting trade then why is the EU desperately trying to make FTAs with any countries they can? They have finally realised that protectionism doesnt work.

2) Dont be daft. At the moment all global standards bodies have single member from the EU. Out of the EU the UK would have seat at the table of all such bodies. Look at Norway, it has more influence than Britain in areas like Fisheries protection because it has a seat at the table, we dont.

[London424]

RYH64E said:

einsign said:

Its not rocket science, where would you setup shop if you was a Japanese business man, Romania?

Would said business man choose a country with guaranteed free and easy access to one of the largest markets in the world, that is also part of group of countries currently negotiating a free trade agreement with the USA, or would he choose a small island off the coast of Europe that's looking to go it alone and has no trade agreements in place? Probably not a particularly difficult decision. It isn't a choice between the UK and Romania, there's plenty of other EU countries to choose from

How long are those negotiations taking? How many vested interests need to be accounted for (French film industry has already spoken up)?

The UK could sit down and put something together much faster than as part of the EU.

[mattnunn]

Du1point8 said:

Why is it that if I did that as a company or a person, I would be up on taking bribes/blackmail... Yet the EU does it and it's legal?

Example being I own 2 companies, 1 that buys stock off a supplier and one that makes part of the equipment the supplier could use in making the stock it sells to me.

At the moment they use another supplier of the same part I create... I then tell them I won't buy unless they use my part making company.

Somehow I think I would be up on some type of charges doing that... Yet Eu is doing pretty much the same thing.

And this misunderstanding to the basic difference in the roles of business and government, this shocking misrepresentation as to what motivates government and politicians, is essentially the reason why UKIPs brand of marketised government falls on such fallow ground with most people. Like it or not on the whole we're a left leaning bunch, maybe not as left leaning as the French or Scandinavians, but I'd rather be in bed with them than Farage.

Governments and social policy do not and should not be equated to running a company.

[Du1point8]

Can you give me a factual list of cons for leaving the EU... No opinions just the facts and evidence of the cons.

Will start you off with the free movement within the EU being taken away if the UK leaves.

Give me another 5/6.

[mattnunn]

Du1point8 said:

Can you give me a factual list of cons for leaving the EU... No opinions just the facts and evidence of the cons.

Will start you off with the free movement within the EU being taken away if the UK leaves.

Give me another 5/6.

1) It's rude to leave a party early, and very unbritish, even if it's not a good party never be the first to leave, hang out in the kitchen for sure, but never just leave early.

2) The more the merrier, this is a well know FACT

3) What goes around, comes around, another well known FACT

4) You've got to be in it to win it, a FACT

5) Europe suffered almost 400 years of non stop bloody conflict predicated on the need for one nation or one religion to rule the others, since the setting up of the EU there has been a record cessastion in the violence, FACT.

[mph1977]

RYH64E said:

Andy Zarse said:

mph1977 said:

Globs said:

He'd probably look at the available products and markets, and choose those.

Yes - that's right - real businessman go to where the deals and the products are. The EU status of a country is entirely secondary and has never been a factor in any company I have worked in or with.

So why in the 1980s did the Japanese Motor Manufacturers come to the UK? Arguably the could have saved money on building and wages by putting new plants in S Korea or SE Asia? Might it have something to do with being able to build and sell EU/ EEC built cars free of tariffs and Quotas ?

All that is in the past and is thus irrelevant, at least according to the pro EU arguement...

They did it because, as far as I'm aware, there's a tariff of 10% on cars imported into the EU. So made and sold in the EU means no import tariff, made outside and sold into the EU means a 10% tariff. That was, and continues to be, a big incentive for car manufacturers to locate their plants within the EU.

Exactly - there were also quotas for numbers of vehicles imported from japan so building in the EU allowed them to sell unlimited numbers of those cars and by not importing ,model x. they could import more of <model y> ... which despite the comedy badge engineering of the Ford fiesta into a Mazda 121 meant more MX5s all round !

[s2art]

Du1point8 said:

Can you give me a factual list of cons for leaving the EU... No opinions just the facts and evidence of the cons.

Will start you off with the free movement within the EU being taken away if the UK leaves.

Give me another 5/6.

Even that isnt clear. Certainly its UKIPs position that we will control immigration from the EU, but Cameron might not negotiate that. What is the Swiss position?

[mph1977]

Du1point8 said:

But but but... the nasty world will not trade with the uk at al so WE ARE ALL DOOMED... so say the pro EU people.

I would rather it take 3-5 years of the UK have to sort out the FTAs again than let the EU drag us down and limit our trade with other countries... its ridiculous they are allowed to do that.

UK car manufacturing and sales is already up several %, were as EU is in negative figures across the board and getting worse.

why would anyone bother with a FTA with a country of 65 million persons when the main thrust will be to large Markets (NAFTA, EU, India, China ) with hundreds of millions to billions to consumers?

The UK standing alone would not have the whip hand the jingoistic anti EU types seem to think we will have ... the US have already said that a stand alone agreement with the UK would be a low priority blip on it's foreign policy radar ...

[Rovinghawk]

mattnunn said:

4) You've got to be in it to win it, a FACT

5) Europe suffered almost 400 years of non stop bloody conflict predicated on the need for one nation or one religion to rule the others, since the setting up of the EU there has been a record cessastion in the violence, FACT.

Switzerland is doing well & hasn't been invaded recently. Fact

It's outside the EU. Fact