EDL leader Tommy Robinson vs Tell MAMA's Fiyaz Mughal
Discussion
Transmat said:
We do acknowledge it though, our own government has agencies like GCHQ, MI5 and SIS actively fighting it and spending hundreds of millions doing so. Our government and reasonable people have never denied there is a problem with islamic extremism, most Muslims also openly acknowledge this.
This difference is movements like EDL constantly blur the lines between extremists and normal practicing Muslims, they claim its the religion that is the problem, not the people.
To get a terrible person to do terrible things, you need very little. To get a decent person to do terrible things, you need religion.This difference is movements like EDL constantly blur the lines between extremists and normal practicing Muslims, they claim its the religion that is the problem, not the people.
Extremists believe, actually believe that they are acting on behalf on authority higher than the laws of any land. They are on a divine mission from the Heavens. From casual to extremist, this is what the religious are taught. So who are we to say they're wrong?
Art0ir said:
To get a terrible person to do terrible things, you need very little. To get a decent person to do terrible things, you need religion.
Extremists believe, actually believe that they are acting on behalf on authority higher than the laws of any land. They are on a divine mission from the Heavens. From casual to extremist, this is what the religious are taught. So who are we to say they're wrong?
Yes I agree that people use religion as an excuse for violence, but ultimately they are all tought the same religion from the same book. I wouldn't agree that to get a decent person to do terrible things you need religion, because there have been many seemingly ordinary people do things that are not related to religion at all. Of course some people use religion, but it's that among other factors.Extremists believe, actually believe that they are acting on behalf on authority higher than the laws of any land. They are on a divine mission from the Heavens. From casual to extremist, this is what the religious are taught. So who are we to say they're wrong?
I think these extremists are misfits of society who hate society for their own reasons, whether it be they are disadvantaged in some way, or sometimes they are just unhinged and can't see the rational reason for religion. How is it that the majority of Muslims can see that their religion doesn't force them to blow people up?
I actually think these terrorists are mentally ill in some way, and are very easily brainwashed. Given the chance they'd hate society regardless. It might sound an innapropriate thing to say, but I remember clearly from school how the Asians were mercilessly bullied by non stop p*** jokes, both by boys and girls. This sort of nurturing might cause some to begin to be bitter and hateful, and a small percentage if these will develop extreme views based upon their interpretation of how they have been treated. These sort of people will always exist for as long as the are racists people out the like the EDL, it's catch 22.
I generally find there is very little difference between the extreme left and extreme right.
As to the more higher minded types, well, no offence but it comes across as so terribly middle class.
The EDL exist because they dont like the spread of Muslim influence in the country. Thats it. It doesnt matter whether its racist or not because that's its raison d'etre and their concerns are shared by enough that the EDL has growing support.
The concerns of those who support the EDL will have to be addressed at some point, some how by someone whether anybody else likes it or not, otherwise by not doing so you default to making the voice that IS addressing those concerns into a legitimate voice. In some ways that has already happened, the EDL gets air time and has a leader that advocates on national media.
We live in an era of crippling political vacuum at the national level and the complete lack of viable political leadership is showing itself by the lack of tackling those who say things the centre doesnt want to hear.
As to the more higher minded types, well, no offence but it comes across as so terribly middle class.
The EDL exist because they dont like the spread of Muslim influence in the country. Thats it. It doesnt matter whether its racist or not because that's its raison d'etre and their concerns are shared by enough that the EDL has growing support.
The concerns of those who support the EDL will have to be addressed at some point, some how by someone whether anybody else likes it or not, otherwise by not doing so you default to making the voice that IS addressing those concerns into a legitimate voice. In some ways that has already happened, the EDL gets air time and has a leader that advocates on national media.
We live in an era of crippling political vacuum at the national level and the complete lack of viable political leadership is showing itself by the lack of tackling those who say things the centre doesnt want to hear.
DJRC said:
I generally find there is very little difference between the extreme left and extreme right.
As to the more higher minded types, well, no offence but it comes across as so terribly middle class.
The EDL exist because they dont like the spread of Muslim influence in the country. Thats it. It doesnt matter whether its racist or not because that's its raison d'etre and their concerns are shared by enough that the EDL has growing support.
The concerns of those who support the EDL will have to be addressed at some point, some how by someone whether anybody else likes it or not, otherwise by not doing so you default to making the voice that IS addressing those concerns into a legitimate voice. In some ways that has already happened, the EDL gets air time and has a leader that advocates on national media.
We live in an era of crippling political vacuum at the national level and the complete lack of viable political leadership is showing itself by the lack of tackling those who say things the centre doesnt want to hear.
But what is the Muslim influence in this country though? As a normal British citizen, I'm certainly not influenced by Muslims any more or less than I am by anything else, religion or otherwise? Muslims have no impact or influence on me at all on a day to day basis, and I live in an area with a fairly large Muslim population. A Muslim to me is no different to a catholic when walking past me on the street.As to the more higher minded types, well, no offence but it comes across as so terribly middle class.
The EDL exist because they dont like the spread of Muslim influence in the country. Thats it. It doesnt matter whether its racist or not because that's its raison d'etre and their concerns are shared by enough that the EDL has growing support.
The concerns of those who support the EDL will have to be addressed at some point, some how by someone whether anybody else likes it or not, otherwise by not doing so you default to making the voice that IS addressing those concerns into a legitimate voice. In some ways that has already happened, the EDL gets air time and has a leader that advocates on national media.
We live in an era of crippling political vacuum at the national level and the complete lack of viable political leadership is showing itself by the lack of tackling those who say things the centre doesnt want to hear.
I think the real problem is EDL inflate the problem because they go looking for it.
Transmat said:
But what is the Muslim influence in this country though? As a normal British citizen, I'm certainly not influenced by Muslims any more or less than I am by anything else, religion or otherwise? Muslims have no impact or influence on me at all on a day to day basis, and I live in an area with a fairly large Muslim population. A Muslim to me is no different to a catholic when walking past me on the street.
I think the real problem is EDL inflate the problem because they go looking for it.
Another way to look at that would be that the EDL highlight the problem because they tackle it head on, where the main political parties talk platitudinously of a religion of peace, and the main stream media drone on about our misunderstanding of Islamic culture and our imperialisit policies in the 19th century as though these somehow justified or explained the slaughter of innocent women and children in modern Britain. The media who pride themselves on their staunch defence of a free press when it comes to celebrity gossip, and indeed serious investigative journalism, refused to print a few cartoons lest it offend Muslims.I think the real problem is EDL inflate the problem because they go looking for it.
Islam is a special case, because it is by far the religion most likely to be cited as a cause for blowing something up, hacking someone to death or hijacking a plane full of innocent people. Despite the statistically low possibility of actually being caught up in an attack or otherwise being a victim of Islamic violence people are scared and angry about it. People are not always rational about these things.
The EDL provide an outlet for that anger where mainstream politics has utterly failed.
AJS- said:
Another way to look at that would be that the EDL highlight the problem because they tackle it head on, where the main political parties talk platitudinously of a religion of peace, and the main stream media drone on about our misunderstanding of Islamic culture and our imperialisit policies in the 19th century as though these somehow justified or explained the slaughter of innocent women and children in modern Britain. The media who pride themselves on their staunch defence of a free press when it comes to celebrity gossip, and indeed serious investigative journalism, refused to print a few cartoons lest it offend Muslims.
Islam is a special case, because it is by far the religion most likely to be cited as a cause for blowing something up, hacking someone to death or hijacking a plane full of innocent people. Despite the statistically low possibility of actually being caught up in an attack or otherwise being a victim of Islamic violence people are scared and angry about it. People are not always rational about these things.
The EDL provide an outlet for that anger where mainstream politics has utterly failed.
I totally agree that EDL is an outlet for anger - but only for a minority of the population who actually care. EDL state clearly on their website they have a mission related to Muslims only. The number of people who on a day to day basis care about how this topic affects them is not that high.Islam is a special case, because it is by far the religion most likely to be cited as a cause for blowing something up, hacking someone to death or hijacking a plane full of innocent people. Despite the statistically low possibility of actually being caught up in an attack or otherwise being a victim of Islamic violence people are scared and angry about it. People are not always rational about these things.
The EDL provide an outlet for that anger where mainstream politics has utterly failed.
Other fringe parties and movements like UKIP who discuss this in a wider context along side other things like immigration etc, get the broader support because more people can relate to more realistic issues that immigration brings. This in my opinion is where EDL go wrong, because they focus on extreme issues in an extreme way.
The government does a lot more behind the scenes to combat extremism and terrorism, but I suspect they do not want to broadcast this too much as they do not want the public to feel vulnerable, and that the terrorists are winning. Don't forget the current threat level is 'substantial' meaning the government is aware that there is a strong possibility of an attack. They are more on top of this than people realise.
Many years ago when there was riots in Bradford the WY cheif constable put it down to hijinxs of a few young chaps even though innnocent people get hurt and their property destroyed. A few weeks later Leeds play Man U and there is running battles outside the britania pub and same chap calls them barbaric. Double standards? Its this kind of thing that gives the EDL support, people see one group getting away with stuff while another group gets to feel the heavy thud of a police baton. The laws of this land applies to all of us and its about time the police and the governemnt stopped this softly softly approach in fear of upsetting a few vocal minorities.
Transmat said:
DJRC said:
I generally find there is very little difference between the extreme left and extreme right.
As to the more higher minded types, well, no offence but it comes across as so terribly middle class.
The EDL exist because they dont like the spread of Muslim influence in the country. Thats it. It doesnt matter whether its racist or not because that's its raison d'etre and their concerns are shared by enough that the EDL has growing support.
The concerns of those who support the EDL will have to be addressed at some point, some how by someone whether anybody else likes it or not, otherwise by not doing so you default to making the voice that IS addressing those concerns into a legitimate voice. In some ways that has already happened, the EDL gets air time and has a leader that advocates on national media.
We live in an era of crippling political vacuum at the national level and the complete lack of viable political leadership is showing itself by the lack of tackling those who say things the centre doesnt want to hear.
But what is the Muslim influence in this country though? As a normal British citizen, I'm certainly not influenced by Muslims any more or less than I am by anything else, religion or otherwise? Muslims have no impact or influence on me at all on a day to day basis, and I live in an area with a fairly large Muslim population. A Muslim to me is no different to a catholic when walking past me on the street.As to the more higher minded types, well, no offence but it comes across as so terribly middle class.
The EDL exist because they dont like the spread of Muslim influence in the country. Thats it. It doesnt matter whether its racist or not because that's its raison d'etre and their concerns are shared by enough that the EDL has growing support.
The concerns of those who support the EDL will have to be addressed at some point, some how by someone whether anybody else likes it or not, otherwise by not doing so you default to making the voice that IS addressing those concerns into a legitimate voice. In some ways that has already happened, the EDL gets air time and has a leader that advocates on national media.
We live in an era of crippling political vacuum at the national level and the complete lack of viable political leadership is showing itself by the lack of tackling those who say things the centre doesnt want to hear.
I think the real problem is EDL inflate the problem because they go looking for it.
The only question therefore that remains is "how do we nullify that?". This isnt about what you believe or whats right, wrong, civilised, its just politics. I personally couldnt give a f
k about whether the EDL or Muslims were burnt in the streets in the UK, but seemingly most of you lot do so I suggest some of you put your thinking caps on.Transmat said:
I totally agree that EDL is an outlet for anger - but only for a minority of the population who actually care. EDL state clearly on their website they have a mission related to Muslims only. The number of people who on a day to day basis care about how this topic affects them is not that high.
Other fringe parties and movements like UKIP who discuss this in a wider context along side other things like immigration etc, get the broader support because more people can relate to more realistic issues that immigration brings. This in my opinion is where EDL go wrong, because they focus on extreme issues in an extreme way.
The government does a lot more behind the scenes to combat extremism and terrorism, but I suspect they do not want to broadcast this too much as they do not want the public to feel vulnerable, and that the terrorists are winning. Don't forget the current threat level is 'substantial' meaning the government is aware that there is a strong possibility of an attack. They are more on top of this than people realise.
I agree the number is small, but those who care about it tend to be those who are, or are very close to the direct victims and they care about it a lot. Once a community has had a rape gang scandal, a terrorist attack or a spate of violence by Muslims then feelings will run very high, and people will be very motivated to get out and make a noise. This can be just as dangerous as millions of people feeling slightly aggrieved, which does also happen after an incident like the Woolwich one which receives large scale national coverage.Other fringe parties and movements like UKIP who discuss this in a wider context along side other things like immigration etc, get the broader support because more people can relate to more realistic issues that immigration brings. This in my opinion is where EDL go wrong, because they focus on extreme issues in an extreme way.
The government does a lot more behind the scenes to combat extremism and terrorism, but I suspect they do not want to broadcast this too much as they do not want the public to feel vulnerable, and that the terrorists are winning. Don't forget the current threat level is 'substantial' meaning the government is aware that there is a strong possibility of an attack. They are more on top of this than people realise.
I don't really share your faith in the government's "behind the scenes" work to combat extremism, or the science behind the threat level being "substantial" - it sounds like a sort of best guess on watching the news.
Terminator X said:
Isn't he and the EDL simply representing the Working Class view or chavs as we like call them today? Afaik the Labour Party used to do that albeit now batter them along with the other political parties, no wonder EDL membership is "gathering pace".
TX.
Calm yourself TX.TX.
I'd call myself working class, yet im hardly the "chav". I think what you were searching for was "underclass" chavs don't work.
andymadmak said:
Silver said:
The EDL are not a political party, they are an anti-Islam protest movement. Nothing more. As previously pointed out, their many-monikered leader is a convicted football thug who has presumably had some media training.
The only reason that a far-right group which was previously dying on its arse have received so much media is because some of their members jumped on the anti-Islam bandwagon following Woolwich. They don't deserve the attention and if anyone thinks that Robinson's performance on Sunday makes the EDL worthy of consideration then they are deluded. The EDL are not speaking for the British public, they're speaking for a bunch of racist thugs.
I would never advocate stopping them from having their right to free speech but that doesn't stop me thinking that they ares.
But its not actually about the EDL. Or at least it shouldnt be. Lets say your description of the EDL is accurate ( i am not saying it is not, just that I dont yet know enough about the group to agree 100% ) is it not all the more tragic that they can gain support in these times? Why is it that no mainstream political party is able to engage in the race and mlticlturalism debate these days? Why is the field left clear for the EDL? THAT was the point I was making about Mr Muslamic Ray Gun and such like. In the halls of the blind, the one eyed man is king..... The only reason that a far-right group which was previously dying on its arse have received so much media is because some of their members jumped on the anti-Islam bandwagon following Woolwich. They don't deserve the attention and if anyone thinks that Robinson's performance on Sunday makes the EDL worthy of consideration then they are deluded. The EDL are not speaking for the British public, they're speaking for a bunch of racist thugs.
I would never advocate stopping them from having their right to free speech but that doesn't stop me thinking that they are
s.Their marches are poorly attended, and the ones that do attend are still of the same demographic as before. They have no mandate, no platform. They merely have a very shouty voice.
The below quote of yours made me laugh:
andymadmak said:
Why is it that no mainstream political party is able to engage in the race and mlticlturalism debate these days?
Why do you expect mainstream parties to debate fringe issues?Paul Dishman said:
My son was telling me that the EDL keep having meetings in Brighton, and one of their members is supposed to have tweeted a picture of Brighton Pavillion to his friends accompanied by the comment "You should see the size of the mosque they've got here.."
(Story may be a myth though)
It was on the EDL facebook page that they posted it.(Story may be a myth though)
DJRC said:
Htf should I know? Im not advocating for or against the EDL, Muslims, racisms or anything else, Im just stating to you what the reality is. It might not affect you, your brother or some bloke called Bob in Outer Mongolia, it doesnt matter, all that *does* matter is the EDL are advocating against something to a successful enough degree that they are garnering support. It doesnt even matter whether you believe them or not, like them or not or whatever, the only thing that matters is that their message is succinct enough to be working.
The only question therefore that remains is "how do we nullify that?". This isnt about what you believe or whats right, wrong, civilised, its just politics. I personally couldnt give a fk about whether the EDL or Muslims were burnt in the streets in the UK, but seemingly most of you lot do so I suggest some of you put your thinking caps on.
Well I guess the only way to start to nullify it is to understand their messaging, see if it holds water and take steps to address it if its accurate, or challenge it if it sounds like a load of hyped up nonsense. EDL have no access to the behind the scenes work of MI5, SIS, GCHQ etc to fully understand threats, they just take a few terrible events and create an entire movement which seems to tarnish an entire religion over the minority. Lets see them start a movement against the Catholic Church?The only question therefore that remains is "how do we nullify that?". This isnt about what you believe or whats right, wrong, civilised, its just politics. I personally couldnt give a f
k about whether the EDL or Muslims were burnt in the streets in the UK, but seemingly most of you lot do so I suggest some of you put your thinking caps on.Here is their mission statement, this says it all about what they stand for:
http://englishdefenceleague.org/
AJS- said:
I don't really share your faith in the government's "behind the scenes" work to combat extremism, or the science behind the threat level being "substantial" - it sounds like a sort of best guess on watching the news.
The threat levels are based upon a standard threat level system used by the home office, which alters it based upon intelligence sources on an ongoing basis:https://www.gov.uk/terrorism-national-emergency/te...
I work more closely with some of these organisations than you realise
Transmat said:
DJRC said:
Htf should I know? Im not advocating for or against the EDL, Muslims, racisms or anything else, Im just stating to you what the reality is. It might not affect you, your brother or some bloke called Bob in Outer Mongolia, it doesnt matter, all that *does* matter is the EDL are advocating against something to a successful enough degree that they are garnering support. It doesnt even matter whether you believe them or not, like them or not or whatever, the only thing that matters is that their message is succinct enough to be working.
The only question therefore that remains is "how do we nullify that?". This isnt about what you believe or whats right, wrong, civilised, its just politics. I personally couldnt give a fk about whether the EDL or Muslims were burnt in the streets in the UK, but seemingly most of you lot do so I suggest some of you put your thinking caps on.
Well I guess the only way to start to nullify it is to understand their messaging, see if it holds water and take steps to address it if its accurate, or challenge it if it sounds like a load of hyped up nonsense. EDL have no access to the behind the scenes work of MI5, SIS, GCHQ etc to fully understand threats, they just take a few terrible events and create an entire movement which seems to tarnish an entire religion over the minority. Lets see them start a movement against the Catholic Church?The only question therefore that remains is "how do we nullify that?". This isnt about what you believe or whats right, wrong, civilised, its just politics. I personally couldnt give a f
k about whether the EDL or Muslims were burnt in the streets in the UK, but seemingly most of you lot do so I suggest some of you put your thinking caps on.Here is their mission statement, this says it all about what they stand for:
http://englishdefenceleague.org/
k about the Catholic Church? Is this a one religion = another religion thing? They dont give a bugger about the Catholic Church or any priests buggering young boys for that matter, their raison d'etre is anti Muslims. Why do they and sections of British society appear to be anti-Muslim? Answer that and you answer your EDL problem, your BNP problem, etc. Hell fk it, you answer an awful lot of your UKIP problem (for both Labour and Tories).
Transmat said:
The threat levels are based upon a standard threat level system used by the home office, which alters it based upon intelligence sources on an ongoing basis:
https://www.gov.uk/terrorism-national-emergency/te...
I work more closely with some of these organisations than you realise
That page tells me absolutely nothing. https://www.gov.uk/terrorism-national-emergency/te...
I work more closely with some of these organisations than you realise
You might be right, I'm sure it's all too classified and complicated for us simple folk to understand, but it just sounds like so many grown men playing soldiers to me. I can see them saying "Enough of this stagnant economy, crumbling health service and growing budget deficit, let's raise the threat level to "Considerable" and head for the COBRA room."
What possible intelligence can tell you that someone is about to take a meat cleaver and an antique pistol and go and kill a soldier in Woolwich? They already knew of the killer, but the mass of impenetrable "intelligence" meant they didn't follow up on it.
I'm not having a go at the people involved as such, it's an impossible task, but I wish they would drop this pretence that the experts have it all under control.
Just what exactly does "substantial" mean in that context? Their own definition is that an attack is "a strong possibility." Yet it's not as serious as Severe or Critical. It's also never been Moderate or Low since it's inception in 2006.
It is complete and utter b
ks.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_Threat_Levels
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