How to make a Tamora ride like a Sagaris...
Discussion
plasticman said:
I have looked at welding the sagaris suspension brackets onto another T chassis and to do it the way TVR welded them on would be very difficult as you would have to remove the old ones first. The large plates on the front Have been weldedalong the front and the back of the verticalish chassis bar and have the diagonal strengthener passing through the rear one . If you were going to make brackets to weld onto the original plates some of the new wishbone mounting points are on the folded edge of the plates so would have to be cut away . If I remember correctly on the rear the top mounts will foul on bodywork though they are easier to swap (with the body off ofcourse )
If you think about what they were trying to achieve and why they did it the way they did you might come to another solution .
Two good points, thank you.If you think about what they were trying to achieve and why they did it the way they did you might come to another solution .
Sagaris has slower less nervous feeling to it and was set up more safely than the Tamora - they (Sags)understeer until you play with them. The Sagaris is easy to drive fast.
For a S6 engined Tammora I would slow the steering down, get rid of the junk shocks, look closely at valving rates - can be matched to the Sagaris rates, and try the same spring rates as the Sagaris. Improve the brakes on the Tam (suspect it's not running the same front and rear as the Sagaris).
Then if its not been done already, look at the condition of the suspension bushing and ride height, sounds like you're running higer than you should be at the rear and there is no need, with a Tam, to put extra weight on the front wheels.
Don't know what your running camber wise, but I would have thought 2-2.5 neg front and 1.5 neg rear is close to where you want to start.
And when thats done, at least give the car a fighting chance by running the same rubber on both axles..
That's where I would be going (AIMHO etc)
For a S6 engined Tammora I would slow the steering down, get rid of the junk shocks, look closely at valving rates - can be matched to the Sagaris rates, and try the same spring rates as the Sagaris. Improve the brakes on the Tam (suspect it's not running the same front and rear as the Sagaris).
Then if its not been done already, look at the condition of the suspension bushing and ride height, sounds like you're running higer than you should be at the rear and there is no need, with a Tam, to put extra weight on the front wheels.
Don't know what your running camber wise, but I would have thought 2-2.5 neg front and 1.5 neg rear is close to where you want to start.
And when thats done, at least give the car a fighting chance by running the same rubber on both axles..
That's where I would be going (AIMHO etc)
Edited by TVR_owner on Tuesday 18th June 12:36
m3jappa said:
Is t ohlins crazy money? How much is a set and what improvement would you see over say nitron or gaz mono?
I would be more than happy with 2 way Nitrons correctly valved. Ohlins are lots of money.The improvements would be difficult for most normal/experienced track day drivers to notice. (and I dont mean that in a nasty way at all
)
TA14 said:
AIUI the one in question here has the ubiquitous LS engine.
And that was why I was careful to qualify my statement. I don't know the weight/weight distribution impact of the transplant.Specific set-up (like Dons) will take track/test time with a good driver who can feed back what needs to be done and good folk to carry what is needed.
SteveSPG said:
I'm very interested in where you go with the tam and suspension. My tam has original shocks and they are tired so I need to decide what they will be replaced with. I fitted racing reds to the griff, which hped enormously but I have t tried nitro a or Gaz etc
I went with nitrons on mine, just the standard 2 way ones with ebach springs and a full geo setup. Night and day difference over standard shocks.Edward,
When needing set-up and new shocks the change will be noticable. I don't think personally the valving rates or the spring rates were too bad from the factory (although the back end does benefit from stiffer springs). The statement applies fo both road and quick track use.
I do like Nitrons don't get me wrong, just we sometimes forget what we are benchmarking against
When needing set-up and new shocks the change will be noticable. I don't think personally the valving rates or the spring rates were too bad from the factory (although the back end does benefit from stiffer springs). The statement applies fo both road and quick track use.
I do like Nitrons don't get me wrong, just we sometimes forget what we are benchmarking against
What tyre pressures were you running? Mine will jump from 24 psi cold, up to nearly 40 on a warmish track day running R1R's. Once they get too high the car just feels very nervous, especially over bumps.
Did a day at Bedford couple of weekends ago with an instructor. He was really impressed with the way the Tam went round corners. Nitrons have made a big difference, but tyres and tyre pressures seem to be crucial.
Did a day at Bedford couple of weekends ago with an instructor. He was really impressed with the way the Tam went round corners. Nitrons have made a big difference, but tyres and tyre pressures seem to be crucial.
TVR_owner said:
Edward,
When needing set-up and new shocks the change will be noticable. I don't think personally the valving rates or the spring rates were too bad from the factory (although the back end does benefit from stiffer springs). The statement applies fo both road and quick track use.
I do like Nitrons don't get me wrong, just we sometimes forget what we are benchmarking against
I went for Nitrons only because 2 of my old shocks had leaks and some of he other shocks had a bad reliability issues. They are much better shocks though you can feel how much more plated the car is.When needing set-up and new shocks the change will be noticable. I don't think personally the valving rates or the spring rates were too bad from the factory (although the back end does benefit from stiffer springs). The statement applies fo both road and quick track use.
I do like Nitrons don't get me wrong, just we sometimes forget what we are benchmarking against
plasticman said:
I have looked at welding the sagaris suspension brackets onto another T chassis and to do it the way TVR welded them on would be very difficult as you would have to remove the old ones first. The large plates on the front Have been weldedalong the front and the back of the verticalish chassis bar and have the diagonal strengthener passing through the rear one . If you were going to make brackets to weld onto the original plates some of the new wishbone mounting points are on the folded edge of the plates so would have to be cut away . If I remember correctly on the rear the top mounts will foul on bodywork though they are easier to swap (with the body off ofcourse )
If you think about what they were trying to achieve and why they did it the way they did you might come to another solution .
Thank you. This is a key post here. There are many excellent responses to "how can I make my T-car handle better?" but in my very limited experience, I'm not sure any of them answer "....as well as a Sagaris?" I've just got back from a road trip to the Scottish highlands with my T350 and a 997 gen 2. My T car has been expertly set up, runs nitrons, SP12s (which in their own are an improvement) and is on brand new tyres (Pilot sports as it happens - I need some all weatherability). I was working hard through many of the corners and often found myself thinking fondly back to a 3min passenger ride in a Sagaris which for me was a revelation - it handled SO much better than mine and I'm fairly sure the 911 wouldn't have seen which way a Sagaris went. I would add that the 911 driver is probably better than me (painful to say as I'm talking about my father!)If you think about what they were trying to achieve and why they did it the way they did you might come to another solution .
On the road btw (don't know about a smooth track), it's clear that electronic adjustable suspension and clever programming is a massive advantage - the 911 was never phased by surface changes that had me hauling on the brakes. I think I did see an aftermarket solution to this somewhere. Don't know.
Ohlin's may be better than Nitrons (I bow to greater experience) but I think the solution has to be bigger than damping. Having seen Plasticman's extraordinary talent, I can't believe reshaping the body would be an insurmountable challenge. Which leaves the question - how can we best achieve the wider track (I'm guessing that's key - it certainly felt it from my 3min) and alternative geometry of the Sagaris?
There were a few race-prepped T350s a while ago: do they hold the key?
This is an interesting topic...
I have T350 which was completely uncontrollable when I first put it on track.
After new dampers (GAZ monos rather than GAZ Golds), correct spring ratings and corner weighting it was like a different car altogether. It became completely benign, balanced, and easy to drive hard. Understeer or oversteer was easy to control, correct or enjoy.
Unfortunately the brakes gave up the ghost, but that's another story...
Don,(or others) why don't we get a track day set up, and bring along a variety of cars.
We'll be able to work out much more precisely what works and doesn't.
My main disappointment was the lack of power, and the lack of grip compared to my mate's 996 GT3 on pilot cup sports. (track tyres will be the next purchase for me).
Damian
I have T350 which was completely uncontrollable when I first put it on track.
After new dampers (GAZ monos rather than GAZ Golds), correct spring ratings and corner weighting it was like a different car altogether. It became completely benign, balanced, and easy to drive hard. Understeer or oversteer was easy to control, correct or enjoy.
Unfortunately the brakes gave up the ghost, but that's another story...
Don,(or others) why don't we get a track day set up, and bring along a variety of cars.
We'll be able to work out much more precisely what works and doesn't.
My main disappointment was the lack of power, and the lack of grip compared to my mate's 996 GT3 on pilot cup sports. (track tyres will be the next purchase for me).
Damian
black11s said:
Don,(or others) why don't we get a track day set up, and bring along a variety of cars.
We'll be able to work out much more precisely what works and doesn't.
Sounds good at first but you'll never be able to line up enough cars of the correct spec. They need to have the same tyres (make, model, dims, wear, pressure) suspension (dampers, springs, - same valving, lengths, rates) same suspension angles, same wheels (dims, weights, etc.) same arbs, same bushes or rose joints, engine, diff. Then you need to change one variable at a time. Otherwise one car could hadle better than another but with 6 things better and 4 things worse and you won't know which is which. Look at the nonesense posted on here when people say that must be good because it's on that car and that car handles well; they have no idea whether it's one of the things which is advantageous or not. Even finding out nothing may well be good fun though.We'll be able to work out much more precisely what works and doesn't.
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