S2 Elise prices - which way are they heading?
Discussion
Are you sure you want it as a daily? From my experience you'll find it a ball ache day-to-day. I used to sigh like an arthritic old man at the luxury of the wife's Astra Diesel (company car) when I used it for the odd tip run.
Don't get me me wrong, I always admire a hardcore commuter who makes no compromise ... just make sure that's you. Do you really want to use it in the depths of winter when the screen won't defrost and the sh***y clumps of ice falling off the backs of lorrys are smacking into your front clam?
Brilliant fair-weather toys but ...
Don't get me me wrong, I always admire a hardcore commuter who makes no compromise ... just make sure that's you. Do you really want to use it in the depths of winter when the screen won't defrost and the sh***y clumps of ice falling off the backs of lorrys are smacking into your front clam?
Brilliant fair-weather toys but ...
Edited by DanglerDoo on Wednesday 19th June 13:56
With the arrival of the Elise S 220 we may well see a change. Along with the V6 Exige, we now have perhaps two cars which supercede their previous versions. I for one, having hankered after an Exige or Elise SC find myself considering the merits of the Elise S 220 as a serious option for my next car. Never been tempted by the S3 in its lower powered version but this model seems to tick far more boxes. Still have to wait a year as its not yet in my price bracket. In either case both models may well become more desirable than their preceeding counterparts which may lead to a dampening of interest and subsequently a fall in current values. Only time will tell.
In the meantime does anybody have any comments on the Elise S 220 (S3). I've only found one review which neverteless was very positive and implied a significant advance over the Elise SC (S2)
In the meantime does anybody have any comments on the Elise S 220 (S3). I've only found one review which neverteless was very positive and implied a significant advance over the Elise SC (S2)
simpo555 said:
In the meantime does anybody have any comments on the Elise S 220 (S3). I've only found one review which neverteless was very positive and implied a significant advance over the Elise SC (S2)
I did a piece on the new Elise S vs. a late Elise SC: http://www.seloc.org/articles/driven/driven-elise-...To be honest there isn't that much difference between them, the SC revs higher but the gearing is longer on the Elise S and it has a touch more torque, so through the gears they're pretty close. The SC arguably makes a better noise (higher reving and more SC whine if you like that), but the Elise S is quite a bit better in terms of fuel consumption, tax, etc.
There were some facelifted Elise SC's for sale in the PistonHeads Classifieds around the £30k mark.
Thorburn said:
I did a piece on the new Elise S vs. a late Elise SC: http://www.seloc.org/articles/driven/driven-elise-...
To be honest there isn't that much difference between them, the SC revs higher but the gearing is longer on the Elise S and it has a touch more torque, so through the gears they're pretty close. The SC arguably makes a better noise (higher reving and more SC whine if you like that), but the Elise S is quite a bit better in terms of fuel consumption, tax, etc.
There were some facelifted Elise SC's for sale in the PistonHeads Classifieds around the £30k mark.
Thanks for the reply. Read the article and admit that it could be more than tempting. Didn't find any concrete figures on consumption. To be honest there isn't that much difference between them, the SC revs higher but the gearing is longer on the Elise S and it has a touch more torque, so through the gears they're pretty close. The SC arguably makes a better noise (higher reving and more SC whine if you like that), but the Elise S is quite a bit better in terms of fuel consumption, tax, etc.
There were some facelifted Elise SC's for sale in the PistonHeads Classifieds around the £30k mark.
pthelazyjourno said:
Edit: £500 for a throttle body from a 130bhp Toyota supermini engine seems bloody pricey to me! All this whining and grumbling about HGF on the K-series - a lot of the parts are considerably cheaper if anything does go wrong.
A fair point. I bought a 111R because of much better reliability. But longer term the Yota engine could be more of a problem - Jap spares are expensive and since the component parts are made in the land of the rising sun, availability wont be good. ,Just think of bikes where you can get all the parts you might need for a Norton Commando or a Bonneville or even things like 1950s AJS but cannot get many bits for 1970 Jap 4 cylinder bikes.bordseye said:
A fair point. I bought a 111R because of much better reliability. But longer term the Yota engine could be more of a problem - Jap spares are expensive and since the component parts are made in the land of the rising sun, availability wont be good. ,Just think of bikes where you can get all the parts you might need for a Norton Commando or a Bonneville or even things like 1950s AJS but cannot get many bits for 1970 Jap 4 cylinder bikes.
Did 20,000 miles with my 111R and never the slightest concern with the engine. Other niggles unrelated but the powerplant never once missed a beat and never needed oil between servicing. In my eyes it represented the most reliable and least unlikely element to go wrong. Not certain I'd have had the same confidence with a Rover block. Perhaps I was lucky or perhaps Toyotas reputation was more than justified. I wouldn't have the same confidence with a Rover engine but I'm willing to accept that I could be mistaken. On the whole reputations are built from actual experience and not patriotic flag waving and I'm more inclined to trust the engine from a manufacturer still in business than otherwise. Like everything else there are always exceptions to the rule. simpo555 said:
Did 20,000 miles with my 111R and never the slightest concern with the engine. Other niggles unrelated but the powerplant never once missed a beat and never needed oil between servicing. In my eyes it represented the most reliable and least unlikely element to go wrong. Not certain I'd have had the same confidence with a Rover block. Perhaps I was lucky or perhaps Toyotas reputation was more than justified. I wouldn't have the same confidence with a Rover engine but I'm willing to accept that I could be mistaken. On the whole reputations are built from actual experience and not patriotic flag waving and I'm more inclined to trust the engine from a manufacturer still in business than otherwise. Like everything else there are always exceptions to the rule.
40k miles here on a K, 100,000 miles overall, and haven't even bothered to renew with the AA anymore these days. My friend Rob currently has two S1s, a low miler and a track car, and neither of those have had engine issues in the past, nor did my cousin's car in the seven years he had his. All the examples in the world are pointless though, as a lot of owners *have* suffered issues, and I'm certainly not going to deny that.
From the poll on SELOC, seem to recall it was around 50/50 - so a massive percentage. Although a lot is also caused by other non K related issues - radiators going pop, for instance - and that's something I know from experience can cause HGF on the Toyota too.
All depends on your outlook though. Stick £500 in the bank so you can fix HGF, or even cough up when you buy the car if you're that concerned, and there's no reason it should cost you anything else. Half the time you even get early warning signals, so you can budget / schedule it into your driving year.
Aside from the head gasket, they're surprisingly (going off reputation) robust engines - there's not really anything else that causes issues.
And that's not to say there won't be issues - any engine can break, and the chance of HGF is evidently more of a risk than with most (hence the reputation). It's just not the problem it's perceived to be. A £500 bill is a much bigger problem when it happens to your £1000 car, than when it happens to a £15,000 car where you budget for maintenance anyway).
Buy a 12yr old Elise and you're far more likely to be left stranded by the alternator going pop, or the radiator spilling its guts, than anything the K series can throw up. Same for the Toyota cars, with the risk of being unable to get in due to iffy remote locking!
Obviously the final nail in the coffin for the K series and Lotus was the VHPD and various poorly tuned iterations.
Some people still have faith in it at 190bhp+ - I wouldn't, just like you don't have faith in it at 118bhp. Up to 160bhp ish it's actually a great engine though, and sounds a lot better than the S or R IMO.
Still, the more people are scared of them, the more chance there is of picking up a bargain.
That's all off topic anyway, but as always I'll defend the K as it's actually a very fitting engine for the Elise, if power isn't the be all and end all (if it is, then it's a crap choice!!).
Edited by pthelazyjourno on Thursday 20th June 17:08
pthelazyjourno said:
That's all off topic anyway, but as always I'll defend the K as it's actually a very fitting engine for the Elise, if power isn't the be all and end all.
I'm actually very glad. Don't want to be seen as an anti Rover engined car. More down to developing or explaining thought patterns. Interesting to note that in general terms , asides the HGF issue, most problems/irritants throughout the Elise range seem to be related to components other than the engine. Edited by pthelazyjourno on Thursday 20th June 17:05
simpo555 said:
I'm actually very glad. Don't want to be seen as an anti Rover engined car. More down to developing or explaining thought patterns. Interesting to note that in general terms , asides the HGF issue, most problems/irritants throughout the Elise range seem to be related to components other than the engine.
Yup. Would be interested to know how many people's engine overheated entirely because of failing radiator end caps, for a start. My friend had an £8k bill from Lotus (covered by warranty) when the radiator on his Toyota engined S splattered his coolant everywhere and he was daft enough to try and get to the end of the road. Engine overheated, head gasket went, cue massively costly repair!
All of which could have been easily avoided with a decent radiator (or a driver who knows when to stop! In my case it's usually when there's coolant all over the windscreen..).
I'd also throw age into the mix as well for reliability - most of the Rover cars are older, so it's inevitable that some of the other parts will start playing up first.
So certainly not saying a K will be more reliable than a Toyota car - just pointing out for the OP that there's no particular need to worry.
kambites said:
I had the voltage regulator fail on my K-series; apparently a common fault because the alternator is mounted too close to the exhaust manifold.
Only cost me ten quite at the local scrappy and half an hour to sort it though.
I don't have a lot of faith in replacement alternators - a lot of people seem to have them fail after 10 years or so (as you say due to proximity to the manifold) and then have the replacements break within a year or two. Only cost me ten quite at the local scrappy and half an hour to sort it though.
Some people also seem to run ducting from the o/s vent to the alternator, which seems a sure fire way of clogging it up with crap.
Need to put a heat shield around mine again, hasn't been one on there for years.
pthelazyjourno said:
kambites said:
I had the voltage regulator fail on my K-series; apparently a common fault because the alternator is mounted too close to the exhaust manifold.
Only cost me ten quite at the local scrappy and half an hour to sort it though.
I don't have a lot of faith in replacement alternators - a lot of people seem to have them fail after 10 years or so (as you say due to proximity to the manifold) and then have the replacements break within a year or two. Only cost me ten quite at the local scrappy and half an hour to sort it though.
Some people also seem to run ducting from the o/s vent to the alternator, which seems a sure fire way of clogging it up with crap.
Need to put a heat shield around mine again, hasn't been one on there for years.
Moving into July. Strangely enough seems to be a month when people think about selling. Approximately 20% more cars available than a couple of months ago. In addition, cars that were selling after a couple of weeks, are now finding longer to find new owners. Ultimately will have an impact on prices. In addition seeing the arrival of early S3 S 220 onto the market and some recent S2 SC which will in my opinion perhaps dampen demand for less powerful cars at the higher end of the market (£20000/£30000). Would imagine a knock on effect for cars in the £10000/£20000 price bracket although one can never be certain. Looks similar for the Exige market with cars taking longer to sell. As an example, I was convinced that WB's Chrome Orange 2006 would have been snapped up and yet three weeks down the line it's still apparently available. Do we have an idea of how many S2 Exige owners have part ex'd for a V6 Exige or are we talking a different market. Finally and perhaps more controversial, no matter how much I look at the V6 Exige, no matter that it seems to be a vast improvement on the S2 Exige, I still find the rear styling awkward. Somehow spolils the look of the car. No doubt people said similar things moving from an S1 to S2 model. IMO both of these models have a certain aesthetic purety that sadly the S3 lacks. No doubt it compensates for this is in the performance.
simpo555 said:
Moving into July. Strangely enough seems to be a month when people think about selling. Approximately 20% more cars available than a couple of months ago. In addition, cars that were selling after a couple of weeks, are now finding longer to find new owners. Ultimately will have an impact on prices. In addition seeing the arrival of early S3 S 220 onto the market and some recent S2 SC which will in my opinion perhaps dampen demand for less powerful cars at the higher end of the market (£20000/£30000). Would imagine a knock on effect for cars in the £10000/£20000 price bracket although one can never be certain.
Interesting obsevations, cheers Why do we think people are looking to sell in July - the perception that demand is larger given the weather? Interesting if that actually results in reversing the generally accepted seasonal price trends.
I now have a spreadsheet in full effect to log the age/price/mileage of standard and 111s S2s in the PH classifieds, so will hopefully see some trends over the next few months.. That is providing I don't shoot through and blow all my savings on one before the winter
Republik1980 said:
Interesting obsevations, cheers
Why do we think people are looking to sell in July - the perception that demand is larger given the weather? Interesting if that actually results in reversing the generally accepted seasonal price trends.
I now have a spreadsheet in full effect to log the age/price/mileage of standard and 111s S2s in the PH classifieds, so will hopefully see some trends over the next few months.. That is providing I don't shoot through and blow all my savings on one before the winter
Ok, I kind of see where you are coming from, but a spreadsheet charting values? Life is too short, if you are ready to buy, buy. If you looking for the bottom of a market, you could chase that forever. Spreadsheets do not record the condition of a car, which is more important than the mileage with Loti. Why do we think people are looking to sell in July - the perception that demand is larger given the weather? Interesting if that actually results in reversing the generally accepted seasonal price trends.
I now have a spreadsheet in full effect to log the age/price/mileage of standard and 111s S2s in the PH classifieds, so will hopefully see some trends over the next few months.. That is providing I don't shoot through and blow all my savings on one before the winter
Everything is life is a gamble, after you have owned whichever Elise you but for a couple of years, and it has lost peanuts compared to other cars, you will not care what price you paid for it, the ownership experience will top it, and little depreiation is just the icing on the cake.
Look outside, if you had one today, would you care whether you saved £500 to go and drive it? Not likely. Alternatively wait until January, buy it "possibly" a little less, and suffer poor weather for your first six months of ownership.
Each to their own of course
piers1 said:
Ok, I kind of see where you are coming from, but a spreadsheet charting values? Life is too short, if you are ready to buy, buy. If you looking for the bottom of a market, you could chase that forever. Spreadsheets do not record the condition of a car, which is more important than the mileage with Loti.
Everything is life is a gamble, after you have owned whichever Elise you but for a couple of years, and it has lost peanuts compared to other cars, you will not care what price you paid for it, the ownership experience will top it, and little depreiation is just the icing on the cake.
Look outside, if you had one today, would you care whether you saved £500 to go and drive it? Not likely. Alternatively wait until January, buy it "possibly" a little less, and suffer poor weather for your first six months of ownership.
Each to their own of course
Thanks - I appreciate your point but the car would be a hugely expensive / borderline justifiable purchase for me, so any saving is welcome. I agree about condition however I don't see any harm in following trends and have a spreadsheet for pretty much everything anyway Everything is life is a gamble, after you have owned whichever Elise you but for a couple of years, and it has lost peanuts compared to other cars, you will not care what price you paid for it, the ownership experience will top it, and little depreiation is just the icing on the cake.
Look outside, if you had one today, would you care whether you saved £500 to go and drive it? Not likely. Alternatively wait until January, buy it "possibly" a little less, and suffer poor weather for your first six months of ownership.
Each to their own of course
I'm more comfortable with the idea of buying in the winter; I'll have more money in a few months time (so wouldn't be blowing all my savings) and since the car will be my only vehicle I figure if the idea still appeals in the depths of winter I should be all good.
Would certainly love to be out in one today though
During the winter months prices are lower. Personally think you save between £750/£1500. Main advantage to me is that the choice is greater. As a very rough guide, end of april around 60 S2's advertised on PH, currently 75. During the winter months between 110-120. Afterwards, as has been said, winter driving conditions are not the same, so perhaps for some, the ultimate pleasure is slightly less. I personally loved mine whatever the time of year
Mid range cars (20K/30K) seem to be falling at the moment. Seeing 2010 S3 SC's hovering around the 28K mark, at dealers, implies to me a downward move on the cards. Probably puts a 2008 S2 SC around the 22K which wasn't the case a couple of months ago With new cars now more freely available, particularly among the more powerful derivatives (220bhp) are finally having an impact in my opinion. More Exiges seem to be available, people trading up?
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