Meanwhile, In Syria
Discussion
CommanderJameson said:
SmoothCriminal said:
Oh look that 
Blair has come out in support of arming the rebels fking idiot.
Any time he pops up, my first thought is, "What's his business interest in this?" Blair has come out in support of arming the rebels fking idiot. Mojocvh said:
I would just ask the politicians to answer one question: how did we, UK plc, feel when it transpired that the Libyans were arming the IRA? Because this is a carbon copy - we are seeking to arm a section of society in another country because we believe they are right, whilst the sitting government believes that very same section of society to be terrorists.
Politics,hypocrisy go together well.Tallbutbuxomly said:
Had the western governments not been working on the sidelines to assist the rebels Assad would have quite probably been able to crush the rebellion a lot easier and many many lives would have been saved.
I think the metric steload of cash and arms directed toward the more batst of the Syrian rebel factions by a rogues' gallery of gulf states has more to do with it than the body armour and medical supplies Hague has greenlit so far.hidetheelephants said:
Tallbutbuxomly said:
Had the western governments not been working on the sidelines to assist the rebels Assad would have quite probably been able to crush the rebellion a lot easier and many many lives would have been saved.
I think the metric steload of cash and arms directed toward the more batst of the Syrian rebel factions by a rogues' gallery of gulf states has more to do with it than the body armour and medical supplies Hague has greenlit so far.hidetheelephants said:
Tallbutbuxomly said:
Had the western governments not been working on the sidelines to assist the rebels Assad would have quite probably been able to crush the rebellion a lot easier and many many lives would have been saved.
I think the metric steload of cash and arms directed toward the more batst of the Syrian rebel factions by a rogues' gallery of gulf states has more to do with it than the body armour and medical supplies Hague has greenlit so far.
Murph7355 said:
MX7 said:
What's that then? How do you stick you nose in and avoid the blame? 
Badly worded.Don't stick your schneb in in the first place.
ked up logic and reasoning that prevails in Islamic countries. MX7 said:
We've barely more dipped a toe in, and yet it's till our fault, apparently. Nothing to do with the fked up logic and reasoning that prevails in Islamic countries.
As soon as you dip even the tip of your toe in, you open yourself up to criticism. ked up logic and reasoning that prevails in Islamic countries. The "f
ked up logic" is only that way if you judge it by Western standards (and I'm not convinced all Islamic nations are that way, to be honest). We have been trying to overlay and enforce our way of living on such nations for over 100yrs. It doesn't work and we still do not see that. We still cannot see that it's trying to do this that increases the animosity towards our way of life and as a consequence the guerilla tactics they employ in the face of the "bully oppressor". We play into the arms of extremists.
Step back. Let the people in those regions sort out how they want to live their way (just as we have over the last couple of thousand years) and maybe we'll have a much better result all round - no wasted lives and money on our part, they get a much more sustainable system.
The Western way is very far from perfect. We'd be better advised to sort our own messes out first before preaching to others and getting involved in s
t we simply do not understand. Murph7355 said:
As soon as you dip even the tip of your toe in, you open yourself up to criticism.
So we should live in isolation? Murph7355 said:
The "fked up logic" is only that way if you judge it by Western standards (and I'm not convinced all Islamic nations are that way, to be honest).
The UN is a global organisation, and even by their standards the majority of Islamic countries don't meet their expectations of The Universal Declaration of Human Rights. It's not simply a conflict with Western standards, it contravenes the very convention by which they agree to abide to.ked up logic" is only that way if you judge it by Western standards (and I'm not convinced all Islamic nations are that way, to be honest).Murph7355 said:
We have been trying to overlay and enforce our way of living on such nations for over 100yrs. It doesn't work and we still do not see that. We still cannot see that it's trying to do this that increases the animosity towards our way of life and as a consequence the guerilla tactics they employ in the face of the "bully oppressor". We play into the arms of extremists.
Do you really think that anyone wants to live in an authoritarian and oppressive society? Do we never have an obligation to try to liberate the oppressed? Murph7355 said:
Step back. Let the people in those regions sort out how they want to live their way (just as we have over the last couple of thousand years) and maybe we'll have a much better result all round - no wasted lives and money on our part, they get a much more sustainable system.
Often it's not how they want to live. Can you not empathise at all with what's it like to live under something like the Taliban? Are you going to suggest that life is rosey under Kim Jong-un?Your attitude reminds me of when the Eloi were sitting by the river in the 1960 version of The Time Machine, just watching people drown.
We do sometimes get it wrong, and, contrary to many people's expectations, the results are not instant, and I have no doubt that some conflicts have been a mistake, but I think it would be very wrong to turn our back every single time and tell them to sort out their own problems.
I understand that it's very de rigueur to adopt a self-loathing attitude where everything is our fault, and I understand that we have, on occasion, acted in the most appalling manner in the past, but I don't see any rigid connection with our history and the manner in which many Islamic countries conduct themselves. We've had conflicts with many counties that today are free and democratic, and, on the other had, there are Islamic countries where we've never had any real interaction with, yet they are considered oppressive and undemocratic. And then there's Bosnia.
We left Nigeria over 50 years ago, are you going to point the finger at us for Boko Harem? Are we responsible for the events in Chechnya? Somalia? Do you blame the Dutch/Portuguese/Japanese for the attacks in Indonesia? The list goes on, yet we have countries that were colonies when we played a far more intrusive role which are entirely peaceful and democratic, like India. We also have countries like Pakistan, which gained independence at the same time, yet is in constant turmoil.
I think there is a common denominator, and I don't accept the excuse that it's ok to be a b
d to your child just because your father was a bd to you. We're all accountable. Have a look at Freedom House.
Not every Islamic country is a dictatorship.
Not every country that is a dictatorship is Islamic.
But I think that most can see some sort of correlation between the two, and that's why I think it's a folly to automatically point the finger at us for everything. There's a deeper problem that that.
It does not mean we HAVE to get involved with every single foreign coutrnies affairs.
Syria was a calm and stable country albeit run by a "dictator". However he was unlike most dictators fairly westernised and in favour of western modernisation.
His mistake was in trying to control his country by crushing rebellion too harshly and if honest it may not have even been at his command.
He was not helped in regaining control of his country by his neighbours and western countries such as the US the UK and France providing assistance in the form of tactical advice and training in evasion.
Syria was a calm and stable country albeit run by a "dictator". However he was unlike most dictators fairly westernised and in favour of western modernisation.
His mistake was in trying to control his country by crushing rebellion too harshly and if honest it may not have even been at his command.
He was not helped in regaining control of his country by his neighbours and western countries such as the US the UK and France providing assistance in the form of tactical advice and training in evasion.
Tallbutbuxomly said:
It does not mean we HAVE to get involved with every single foreign coutrnies affairs.
You think that we get involved in "every single foreign coutrnies[sic] affairs"? Really? That's almost laughable. Look at the Arab 'Spring'. Tunisia? Egypt? Morocco? Then go to Burma, Turkey, Brazil, Argentina. You're so determined to portray us as evil that you're actually willing to fabricate the facts.
Every single country?!!
MX7 said:
Tallbutbuxomly said:
It does not mean we HAVE to get involved with every single foreign coutrnies affairs.
You think that we get involved in "every single foreign coutrnies[sic] affairs"? Really? That's almost laughable. Look at the Arab 'Spring'. Tunisia? Egypt? Morocco? Then go to Burma, Turkey, Brazil, Argentina. You're so determined to portray us as evil that you're actually willing to fabricate the facts.
Every single country?!!
Every country does not mean literally EVERY country.
Tallbutbuxomly said:
It does not mean we HAVE to get involved with every single foreign coutrnies affairs.
Syria was a calm and stable country albeit run by a "dictator". However he was unlike most dictators fairly westernised and in favour of western modernisation.
His mistake was in trying to control his country by crushing rebellion too harshly and if honest it may not have even been at his command.
He was not helped in regaining control of his country by his neighbours and western countries such as the US the UK and France providing assistance in the form of tactical advice and training in evasion.
Sean,Syria was a calm and stable country albeit run by a "dictator". However he was unlike most dictators fairly westernised and in favour of western modernisation.
His mistake was in trying to control his country by crushing rebellion too harshly and if honest it may not have even been at his command.
He was not helped in regaining control of his country by his neighbours and western countries such as the US the UK and France providing assistance in the form of tactical advice and training in evasion.
Please stop generalizing.
Go back through your posts on this thread and this seems to be a forte of yours. It's as if you cannot have a rational debate without stamping a generalization across each statement.
Every single foreign country!
You call oppressed by force, calm and stable?
He and his wife were westernized by middle eastern standards however he had no intention whatsoever of implementing change. His many promises to the Syrian people were only words. I'm happy to supply references.
The graffiti in Daraa protesting against his regime was not a rebellion to be crushed but a written protest by students.
Now I especially like this short article as it was published in The Gaurdian, not the normal right of center journal of choice:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/mar/2...
Phil
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