Islam and the West

[Mermaid]

Bill said:

Loving the "solutions" that would make us worse than the Saudis. Not to mention the divisive end result which would alienate the entire population and only make things worse.

Agree with you about the Saudis, without oil they would have far less influence. They invite other nationalities but keep their identity/values intact.

Divisive end result? The trend is not exactly favourable right now, and I agree less PC and more BV's (whatever that means).

Is it right that places such as Luton, Bradford, Birmingham have the reputation they do? Would they be the same without the glue that is Islam?

No idea. I expect there are other "ghettos" not affected by Islam.

[jdw100]

supersingle said:

That was painful to listen to. They were clueless, ignorant, inarticulate and I don't imagine they could tell their arse from their elbow. I'm glad to say they were about as threatening as an angry kitten.

Its the accent, innit.

Even if one was threatening you with an AK47 and saying "I iz gonna shoot you in the head innit, yeah coz that's standard like innit" I think you would struggle to keep a straight face.

[jdw100]

AreOut said:

umm, the things already went too far... Islam as a religion is just not compatible with western values, it's like throwing a bear in a tiger cage and hoping they will peacefully coexist...possible it is, but for how long that is another question

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWviAjowmmc

[Rovinghawk]

TopOnePercent said:

The simplest solution is to cancel the passport of any muslim suspected of fighting a war outside of the British armed forces, and to deport their family to their current location. By family I mean 3 generations up, down, or sideways of them.
Job. Done.

So you'd be ok with you & your wife being deported if a nephew or cousin screwed up?

[Talkwrench]

Rovinghawk said:

TopOnePercent said:

The simplest solution is to cancel the passport of any muslim suspected of fighting a war outside of the British armed forces, and to deport their family to their current location. By family I mean 3 generations up, down, or sideways of them.
Job. Done.

So you'd be ok with you & your wife being deported if a nephew or cousin screwed up?

I hope you're not implying that the wife/nephew/cousin is the same person? That's a slight generalisation.

[Bill]

Mermaid said:

Agree with you about the Saudis, without oil they would have far less influence. They invite other nationalities but keep their identity/values intact.

Divisive end result? The trend is not exactly favourable right now, and I agree less PC and more BV's (whatever that means).

Is it right that places such as Luton, Bradford, Birmingham have the reputation they do? Would they be the same without the glue that is Islam?

No idea. I expect there are other "ghettos" not affected by Islam.

I mention the Saudis because various posters were coming up with solutions that are worse than anything the ideology they hate has produced. Which seems ironic.

And these solutions would alienate vast swathes of Muslims who see innocents shipped off to join their extremist family members/nuked from orbit/whatever other moronic bks. Creating more extremists, because that's what persecution does.

What reputation do they have? Good curries? Poor driving? And a few shouty idiots. Even in Luton most Muslims are just trying to get by.

The answer isn't easy, but it categorically isn't "turning the ME to glass" (How is posting that any different to the gobstes telling a reporter they'd go to Syria to fight for their brotherz, innit?).

Plenty of Muslim countries have populations of other religions living happily, plenty have different denominations of Muslim and plenty of non-Muslim countries have Muslim populations without issue. So the whole "Islam is incompatible with the West" argument is bks. Extremism is incompatible, and the problems arise when shouty idiots from one side or other stir things up using religion to emphasise differences.

[jdw100]

Bill said:

I mention the Saudis because various posters were coming up with solutions that are worse than anything the ideology they hate has produced. Which seems ironic.

And these solutions would alienate vast swathes of Muslims who see innocents shipped off to join their extremist family members/nuked from orbit/whatever other moronic bks. Creating more extremists, because that's what persecution does.

What reputation do they have? Good curries? Poor driving? And a few shouty idiots. Even in Luton most Muslims are just trying to get by.

The answer isn't easy, but it categorically isn't "turning the ME to glass" (How is posting that any different to the gobstes telling a reporter they'd go to Syria to fight for their brotherz, innit?).

Plenty of Muslim countries have populations of other religions living happily, plenty have different denominations of Muslim and plenty of non-Muslim countries have Muslim populations without issue. So the whole "Islam is incompatible with the West" argument is bks. Extremism is incompatible, and the problems arise when shouty idiots from one side or other stir things up using religion to emphasise differences.

Good post, there is a lot on here about 'we don't want sharia law' then followed by 'burglars should have their hands cut off'.

I spent a few months in Indonesia recently, religions there seemed to rub along okay. Islamists on the more extreme end garner very few votes in elections and you see very little of the hijab, niquab type of stuff.

I met lots of locals and was a bit of a novelty to them as I was often the first person they had met without any religion. They were often genuinely intrigued and also baffled by this. I met no hostility from anyone, security is high (because of Bali bombings 10+ years ago) but at the same time very lax.

[benjj]

Bill said:

I mention the Saudis because various posters were coming up with solutions that are worse than anything the ideology they hate has produced. Which seems ironic.

And these solutions would alienate vast swathes of Muslims who see innocents shipped off to join their extremist family members/nuked from orbit/whatever other moronic bks. Creating more extremists, because that's what persecution does.

What reputation do they have? Good curries? Poor driving? And a few shouty idiots. Even in Luton most Muslims are just trying to get by.

The answer isn't easy, but it categorically isn't "turning the ME to glass" (How is posting that any different to the gobstes telling a reporter they'd go to Syria to fight for their brotherz, innit?).

Plenty of Muslim countries have populations of other religions living happily, plenty have different denominations of Muslim and plenty of non-Muslim countries have Muslim populations without issue. So the whole "Islam is incompatible with the West" argument is bks. Extremism is incompatible, and the problems arise when shouty idiots from one side or other stir things up using religion to emphasise differences.

I agree factually about most of the things you've written there but you are overlooking perhaps the most important element to all this - the emotional reaction.

The vast majority of Britain are wary of Islamic ways. To a degree this was brought on by 7/7 (and 9/11 d'accord) but British muslims have a number of normal (to them) behaviours that are anathema to modern Britain. These include but are not limited to the segregation of men/women, attitudes towards education, attitudes towards marriage, crime, other religions etc.

I'm not saying any of it is wrong, it just sits uncomfortably next to the way we do things.

In addition to this we (the public) are hamstrung by the way we are expected to react to this. On one hand we see Christians/jews/sikhs/others being persecuted/killed in other countries solely based on their beliefs - on the other hand we are pressured into accepting pretty much anything on our own shores. Modern Britain's suggestion of how we react to this is to smile and do nothing.

People in general don't like one rule for them and another rule for others - this manifests itself in anger when British women get arrested for being themselves on the beach in Dubai but muslim women can do whatever they like over here. People don't like that.

The catalyst to any conflict is the emotional reaction of one person to the behaviour of another.

The problem the UK faces today is huge and virtually impossible to solve. A massive part of this is to do with our own attitudes and emotional reactions to things we see and hear on the news and there is nothing we can do about it.

I see blood on the dancefloor, and lots of it. It is inevitable. And we'll all be poorer for it.

[Bill]

ETA in reply to JDW100:

Yep. You talk to people in countries with hardcore regimes of any sort an the underlying theme is their utter contempt for the idiots in charge.

Edited by Bill on Thursday 19th June 13:46

[gpo746]

Bill said:

Yep. You talk to people in countries with hardcore regimes of any sort an the underlying theme is their utter contempt for the idiots in charge.

If the country has to swing to the right to take account of the mess we are in its a price worth paying.
We have been too soft too nice and we have had the piss taken too much.
Attitudes may be hardening against the softness I really hope so.
Just what will it take.
Another Lee Rigby another 7/7 ?

I hope nothing like that happens again and if that means the security forces/ Police being more heavy handed to stop it so be it.

[Bill]

gpo746 said:

If the country has to swing to the right to take account of the mess we are in its a price worth paying.
We have been too soft too nice and we have had the piss taken too much.
Attitudes may be hardening against the softness I really hope so.
Just what will it take.
Another Lee Rigby another 7/7 ?

I hope nothing like that happens again and if that means the security forces/ Police being more heavy handed to stop it so be it.

I disagree. If we start infringing people's rights, the extremists have won.

[Mermaid]

Bill said:

..Plenty of Muslim countries have populations of other religions living happily, plenty have different denominations of Muslim and plenty of non-Muslim countries have Muslim populations without issue. So the whole "Islam is incompatible with the West" argument is bks. Extremism is incompatible, and the problems arise when shouty idiots from one side or other stir things up using religion to emphasise differences.

Absolutely - if and when we find out the identity of the 450 that are fighting in Syria ( & some in Iraq), it will be interesting to see the breakdown of their background.

I suspect a large percentage will be Pakistanis Brits who follow Islam.

[Bill]

Mermaid said:

I suspect a large percentage will be Pakistanis Brits who follow Islam.

The last two points seem certain, no idea about Pakistani but I think they make up the majority of British Muslims so it seems likely. Hopefully any that survive get picked up and tried on terrorism charges.

[Mermaid]

Bill said:

Hopefully any that survive get picked up and tried on terrorism charges.

If CMD had been successful in sending troops to Syria, that would have been OK. These guys will no doubt use that defence. . In any event, that would be a long & tortuous trial.

[Rovinghawk]

Bill said:

gpo746 said:

I hope nothing like that happens again and if that means the security forces/ Police being more heavy handed to stop it so be it.

I disagree. If we start infringing people's rights, the extremists have won.

I'd say you're both half right- the hand can be heavy provided it's properly controlled.

[Mermaid]

Rovinghawk said:

Bill said:

gpo746 said:

I hope nothing like that happens again and if that means the security forces/ Police being more heavy handed to stop it so be it.

I disagree. If we start infringing people's rights, the extremists have won.

I'd say you're both half right- the hand can be heavy provided it's properly controlled.

Agreed - for tolerance to thrive, your need to be fair but very firm on security issues.

[Bill]

The problem being that one man's firm but fair is another's overbearing police state.

[Mermaid]

Bill said:

The problem being that one man's firm but fair is another's overbearing police state.

Agree, but the UK is magnet for economic migrants & such (legal & otherwise) because it not overbearing and is generous to a fault in its indulgence of the legal process. And benefits.

[Rovinghawk]

Bill said:

The problem being that one man's firm but fair is another's overbearing police state.

We have scope to tighten up on our rules ( & should do so).

We have scope to tighten up on the accuracy of our enforcement ( & should do so).

[gpo746]

Rovinghawk said:

Bill said:

gpo746 said:

I hope nothing like that happens again and if that means the security forces/ Police being more heavy handed to stop it so be it.

I disagree. If we start infringing people's rights, the extremists have won.

I'd say you're both half right- the hand can be heavy provided it's properly controlled.

I can happily agree to that.
I just don't want us go on being gullible