Bloody immigrants, coming over here, paying their taxes
Discussion
sidicks said:
longblackcoat said:
Looking around my office, there's a Croatian, a Pole, a Macedonian, two French guys and any number of Irish. All with degrees, many with masters, all with professional qualifications.
We've been able to get better-quality people as a result of the economic issues in Europe - a truly outstanding Greek analyst comes to mind - but the problem for me is retention. Most of these people are keen to return home eventually; paradoxically, although it gives me a problem, it's been good for GB plc, as they've come in, earned well, paid taxes, and then depart before they start to draw a pension. In any case, we've been able to get the advantage of a fully-educated worker without the expense of all that up-to-the-age-of-21 cost.
We all have different examples, depending on where we work. My personal experience is that the immigrant is often better than the home-grown; they've been bothered to get off their backside and travel hundreds/thousands of miles, there's a fantastic work ethic, and the standard of grammar is uniformly excellent.
Immigrants? Love 'em, just wish I could keep 'em.
And those same people would still be able to come and work in the UK under a controlled immigration policy....We've been able to get better-quality people as a result of the economic issues in Europe - a truly outstanding Greek analyst comes to mind - but the problem for me is retention. Most of these people are keen to return home eventually; paradoxically, although it gives me a problem, it's been good for GB plc, as they've come in, earned well, paid taxes, and then depart before they start to draw a pension. In any case, we've been able to get the advantage of a fully-educated worker without the expense of all that up-to-the-age-of-21 cost.
We all have different examples, depending on where we work. My personal experience is that the immigrant is often better than the home-grown; they've been bothered to get off their backside and travel hundreds/thousands of miles, there's a fantastic work ethic, and the standard of grammar is uniformly excellent.
Immigrants? Love 'em, just wish I could keep 'em.
Guam said:
Mr_B said:
As someone else said, all people likely to be able to get in and work under a points based system. You are also unable to speak long term and just citing the people in your office is hardly a way to run the immigration system now, is it ?
Talk to me on numbers and long term and I may listen. For example , tell me a sustainable immigration figure and lets see if that would be filled quite easily many times over with unskilled people who won't be providing any benefit to GB plc.
I don't disagree with much of what you said or dispute your experience, but don't see it adds much, other than supporting a points based system ?
But who has said they want to stop skilled labour?Talk to me on numbers and long term and I may listen. For example , tell me a sustainable immigration figure and lets see if that would be filled quite easily many times over with unskilled people who won't be providing any benefit to GB plc.
I don't disagree with much of what you said or dispute your experience, but don't see it adds much, other than supporting a points based system ?
No one as far as I can tell, this is the argument regularly trotted out and from where I sit its a monumental strawman. LBC office full of qualified experienced exceptional employees is good for the nation, no one is disputing that from what I can tell.
Its the bottom feeders who require state support and their sheer numbers that are at issue here.
Mr_B said:
You then say "Unskilled migrants isn't just limited to the EU open borders, there's plenty who came from elsewhere
First my post specifically referenced to EU immigration. I have said many times before I believe our non EU immigration policies are broken. So we agree on that.Mr_B said:
all the veg would be rotting in the fields and all the offices and other low skilled low wouldn't get done if it weren't for immigrants,
I did not say that but I think the current high levels of employment and the falling unemployment rates suggest that its true.Mr_B said:
I'm pretty sure the figure across the country runs into hundreds of thousands working these types of jobs or not much better or higher paying jobs like serving coffee.
For which of cause you have no evidence. You may also consider apologising to every coffee barista you have just insulted.Mr_B said:
As I said earlier, my job takes me into hundreds of London offices a year. The change has been near total over the years to an almost exclusive migrant workforce doing the cleaning jobs. I'm not sure if you believe immigration to be roughly equal, but would guess that the number of people that left the UK to go to Romania to work zero skills jobs could probably be counted on one hand. That I'm afraid is the disparity people don't seem to want to talk on when the very recent transition controls were relaxed with very poor and vastly economically different countries like Romania. It was always going to be a near one way street in terms of who would leave and go, with Romania providing perhaps the most stark contrast - broadly speaking, very poor unskilled people would come, only the more skilled from the UK would leave to go there, both representing a loss to the UK.
I wonder how long before you got to Romania. A country I suspect you know nothing about.Do you think Romania does not have schools or universities!!!
It does and I would suggest most Romanians coming here have passed high school and many have degrees.
Mr_B said:
much greater economic benefit both in the short term and the long term
Can I see evidence not just it must be true because I said it.Mrr T said:
Mr_B said:
You then say "Unskilled migrants isn't just limited to the EU open borders, there's plenty who came from elsewhere
First my post specifically referenced to EU immigration. I have said many times before I believe our non EU immigration policies are broken. So we agree on that.Mr_B said:
all the veg would be rotting in the fields and all the offices and other low skilled low wouldn't get done if it weren't for immigrants,
I did not say that but I think the current high levels of employment and the falling unemployment rates suggest that its true.Mr_B said:
I'm pretty sure the figure across the country runs into hundreds of thousands working these types of jobs or not much better or higher paying jobs like serving coffee.
For which of cause you have no evidence. You may also consider apologising to every coffee barista you have just insulted.Mr_B said:
As I said earlier, my job takes me into hundreds of London offices a year. The change has been near total over the years to an almost exclusive migrant workforce doing the cleaning jobs. I'm not sure if you believe immigration to be roughly equal, but would guess that the number of people that left the UK to go to Romania to work zero skills jobs could probably be counted on one hand. That I'm afraid is the disparity people don't seem to want to talk on when the very recent transition controls were relaxed with very poor and vastly economically different countries like Romania. It was always going to be a near one way street in terms of who would leave and go, with Romania providing perhaps the most stark contrast - broadly speaking, very poor unskilled people would come, only the more skilled from the UK would leave to go there, both representing a loss to the UK.
I wonder how long before you got to Romania. A country I suspect you know nothing about.Do you think Romania does not have schools or universities!!!
It does and I would suggest most Romanians coming here have passed high school and many have degrees.
Mr_B said:
much greater economic benefit both in the short term and the long term
Can I see evidence not just it must be true because I said it.Migrants can't one day be all the people that do low paid/low skilled jobs that lazy Brits won't do, then the next be providing huge incomes that provided a small net gain against the massive losses from other areas of immigration.
You seem to wan't to cling to the report that sighted a small net gain in one area in the short term when we know that long term that whole group will likely turn into a net loss if they settle. Of that group i would suggest only the most skilled are liable to be short and long term contributors and a net benefit.
Again still no word from you only the likely numbers who have come and gone to work in countries like Romania, just a silly attack on asking if I think they have schools there. Genius level of debate and one liable to bring Mr BSR out the woodwork.
You were asked quite simply on a question of open borders between the two which you thought was most likely. I'd suggest that the small number of Brits that went there to work have skills that are a loss to the UK, while the tens of thousands that have come have been much lowered skilled and far more likely to end up in minimum wage type jobs and have far more impact and less benefit than a similar number coming from Germany or France. Just the arrest rate on Romanians being higher by a factor of around 10 suggests there is vast differences in the type of immigration coming from each EU country.
The standard line and even the thread title kinda show the level of debate here, a report that shows a small net gain short term for one group seems to get hailed as total proof that all immigration is wonderful and everyone should stop talking on the matter.
I find that a lazy and stupid approach. Far better I think to simply pick who you want, as and when you want. I have seen not one thing that suggests the left to chance system could out perform controls.
HonestIago said:
sidicks said:
longblackcoat said:
Looking around my office, there's a Croatian, a Pole, a Macedonian, two French guys and any number of Irish. All with degrees, many with masters, all with professional qualifications.
We've been able to get better-quality people as a result of the economic issues in Europe - a truly outstanding Greek analyst comes to mind - but the problem for me is retention. Most of these people are keen to return home eventually; paradoxically, although it gives me a problem, it's been good for GB plc, as they've come in, earned well, paid taxes, and then depart before they start to draw a pension. In any case, we've been able to get the advantage of a fully-educated worker without the expense of all that up-to-the-age-of-21 cost.
We all have different examples, depending on where we work. My personal experience is that the immigrant is often better than the home-grown; they've been bothered to get off their backside and travel hundreds/thousands of miles, there's a fantastic work ethic, and the standard of grammar is uniformly excellent.
Immigrants? Love 'em, just wish I could keep 'em.
And those same people would still be able to come and work in the UK under a controlled immigration policy....We've been able to get better-quality people as a result of the economic issues in Europe - a truly outstanding Greek analyst comes to mind - but the problem for me is retention. Most of these people are keen to return home eventually; paradoxically, although it gives me a problem, it's been good for GB plc, as they've come in, earned well, paid taxes, and then depart before they start to draw a pension. In any case, we've been able to get the advantage of a fully-educated worker without the expense of all that up-to-the-age-of-21 cost.
We all have different examples, depending on where we work. My personal experience is that the immigrant is often better than the home-grown; they've been bothered to get off their backside and travel hundreds/thousands of miles, there's a fantastic work ethic, and the standard of grammar is uniformly excellent.
Immigrants? Love 'em, just wish I could keep 'em.
But is it an immigration issue or is it that the sort of European who'd got off their arse and is prepared to work in Starbucks is probably a LOT more determined than the average Brit of the same age. Let's see, as an employer would I prefer to employ a charming Hungarian girl with a cute accent who speaks brilliant English and is glad of a job, or a surly Londoner who thinks the job is beneath them? And that's the choice that employers are making every day.
The Europeans who work for me are very aware that this is a brilliant country to work. They're not here for benefits, they're here because of our culture, the chance to work in a world-class organisation, the ability to travel to all sorts of places, and the fact that we're such a diverse country. And under a points-based system most of them probably wouldn't qualify, because there there are British people who could do their jobs. It's just that the Brits I see, pound for employed pound, simply aren't such good value. The Europeans are typically better-qualified and try that bit harder.
currybum said:
From the DM link, there about 65k people from the EU claiming job seekers allowance, which on average is about £4k a year….so about £260million a year. Even if the total is a billion a year I just don’t see it as a major problem that warrants being one of the core issue in a GE.
We spend over £50billion on interest payments, and yet we are fixated on a few hundred million going to poor people who happened to be born elsewhere.
I often think the job seekers allowance is deliberately set at such a low level so that people will misunderstand the level of welfare spending.We spend over £50billion on interest payments, and yet we are fixated on a few hundred million going to poor people who happened to be born elsewhere.
In the context of total welfare spending the JSA is spare change they have lost down the back of the sofa. People, particularly parents, in low paid work receive far more in welfare spending than is spent on the JSA. Billions more is spent on those who are not required to seek work, whether due to age of children or other issue.
longblackcoat said:
Looking around my office, there's a Croatian, a Pole, a Macedonian, two French guys and any number of Irish. All with degrees, many with masters, all with professional qualifications.
Thats a very good point. Was the same where I used to work. We don't pay to educate them, get a truck load of taxes out of them and they go home before they get old and sick. currybum said:
You don’t, that’s the great thing about the internet, you can say anything without having to back it up with any fully forms opinion or facts.
The great thing about the internet is you that you can say anything on forums, opinions or facts, under a pseudonym and then delete your entire history when questioned.flyingvisit said:
longblackcoat said:
... Let's see, as an employer would I prefer to employ a cute Hungarian girl with a charming accent who speaks brilliant English and is glad of a job, or a surly Londoner who speaks chav and thinks the job is beneath them? ...
longblackcoat said:
... Let's see, as an employer would I prefer to employ a charming Hungarian girl with a cute accent who speaks brilliant English and is glad of a job, or a surly Londoner who thinks the job is beneath them? ...
I would just like to say how much I endorse charming Hungarian (or any Eastern European for that matter) girls with cute accents. Perhaps special allowances for them can be made in UKIP's point based system?? 
JagLover said:
I often think the job seekers allowance is deliberately set at such a low level so that people will misunderstand the level of welfare spending.
.
This I do agree with you on, regardless of its relevance to immigration..
The whole benefits system in our country is something that makes me seethe with the sheer insanity of it. The way it's split up into a hundred misleading sections to make things seem not quite as catastrophic as they are, and the sheer volume and ease of access to them. I hate that benefits have become a 'right' rather than a helping hand and I despise the fact that there are a realtively high number of people who would actually emigrate just to take advantage of it. If I were government I would scrap them tomorrow.
Back to the current issue, I also genuinely believe that if the benefits system was not so ludicrous then this mounting xenophobia in the UK wouldn't even exist.
blindswelledrat said:
This I do agree with you on, regardless of its relevance to immigration.
The whole benefits system in our country is something that makes me seethe with the sheer insanity of it. The way it's split up into a hundred misleading sections to make things seem not quite as catastrophic as they are, and the sheer volume and ease of access to them. I hate that benefits have become a 'right' rather than a helping hand and I despise the fact that there are a realtively high number of people who would actually emigrate just to take advantage of it. If I were government I would scrap them tomorrow.
Back to the current issue, I also genuinely believe that if the benefits system was not so ludicrous then this mounting xenophobia in the UK wouldn't even exist.
Interestingly enough there is quite a close correlation between homogeneity of a society and the generosity of its welfare state (in first world economies).The whole benefits system in our country is something that makes me seethe with the sheer insanity of it. The way it's split up into a hundred misleading sections to make things seem not quite as catastrophic as they are, and the sheer volume and ease of access to them. I hate that benefits have become a 'right' rather than a helping hand and I despise the fact that there are a realtively high number of people who would actually emigrate just to take advantage of it. If I were government I would scrap them tomorrow.
Back to the current issue, I also genuinely believe that if the benefits system was not so ludicrous then this mounting xenophobia in the UK wouldn't even exist.
It seems that People need to feel the welfare system benefits people like them to vote for generous welfare states.
JagLover said:
Interestingly enough there is quite a close correlation between homogeneity of a society and the generosity of its welfare state (in first world economies).
It seems that People need to feel the welfare system benefits people like them to vote for generous welfare states.
High correlation between the racial and cultural homogeneity of a country and levels of tax compliance too. There's an interesting paper on it somewhere which I can't find anymore. Probably got banned for being racialist innit.It seems that People need to feel the welfare system benefits people like them to vote for generous welfare states.
JagLover said:
Interestingly enough there is quite a close correlation between homogeneity of a society and the generosity of its welfare state (in first world economies).
It seems that People need to feel the welfare system benefits people like them to vote for generous welfare states.
I would have thought the opposite. We have one of the least homogenous societies with possibly the most generous welfare state in the world haven't we? Or is that what you meant?It seems that People need to feel the welfare system benefits people like them to vote for generous welfare states.
blindswelledrat said:
I would have thought the opposite. We have one of the least homogenous societies with possibly the most generous welfare state in the world haven't we? Or is that what you meant?
No I think he is right. Take Norway at one end of the (1st world) scale and the USA at the other. The UK would be somewhere in the middle. The closer people are to you (culturally and genetically) the greater your generosity will likely be toward them. Its certainly correlated to tax compliance/evasion and makes sense it would be to the generosity of the welfare state too.
Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 19th November 16:19
fblm said:
No I think he is right. Take Norway at one end of the (1st world) scale and the USA at the other. The UK would be somewhere in the middle. The closer people are to you (culturally and genetically) the greater your generosity will likely be toward them. Its certainly correlated to tax compliance/evasion and makes sense it would be to the generosity of the welfare state too.
]
Genuinely fascinating and I am also shocked. I can see how they would correlate -it makes complete sense , I am just gobsmacked that we are one of the least ethnically diverse countries on the planet so I had assumed originally that JL had got it arse-about face.]
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