Can Sir Keir Starmer revive the Labour Party? (Vol. 2)
Discussion
Just popping by to note you're both talking garbage. Mr Penguin said:
It barely scratches the surface of the risks to Labour but it is all true
Yes, but I think it's under-pricing how little control Labour have over things. They have shed support all over the place, going back to when Starmer positioned himself as the Shadow Minister for Begging the EU, to the treatment of the left, then to pissing off the lunatics over Gaza, but ultimately they lead in the polls because the Tories have lost more support and more firmly because they stood on a manifesto, then did the opposite and lied about it. The stand-out risk to Labour is that the Tories pull together a manifesto of things that the public want, last time they did that the public rowed in behind them. But the probability of that is miniscule because the party doesn't actually want to do anything the public wants them to and the public doesn't trust them to do it anyway.
Labour will waste their money campaigning, they will win by miles as the tory vote stays at home anyone arguing different is either has a filing deadline or simply doesn't understand the strength of feeling across a huge range of issues where the Tories have simply not delivered what they said they would.
Carl_VivaEspana said:
Only a minority of social media warrior activists will actually support and vote for anything 'progressive' in the UK and I laugh at the concept at 'democratic socialism' as something that has never been possible and will never actually exist apart from inside Owen Jones' head.
After the 'progressive' mess that's been made of Brighton, Wales, Scotland, Sweden, Canada, France and pretty much anything else 'progressive' and then seeing 'democratic socialists' like the SQUAD in the U.S.A, I would expect the polling to be pretty much where the Green/Lib Dem party currently sits - on the fringes.
Nobody is going to get a broad, stable, governing majority offering people a deal like Humza Yousaf did, apart from maybe, Wales.
I'm not quite sure what to make of this rather disjointed mess. After the 'progressive' mess that's been made of Brighton, Wales, Scotland, Sweden, Canada, France and pretty much anything else 'progressive' and then seeing 'democratic socialists' like the SQUAD in the U.S.A, I would expect the polling to be pretty much where the Green/Lib Dem party currently sits - on the fringes.
Nobody is going to get a broad, stable, governing majority offering people a deal like Humza Yousaf did, apart from maybe, Wales.
There were over 10 million people who voted for a solid-left Labour Party at the last general election (we can try and split hairs and decide where Labour fell on the social democracy/democratic socialist scale, but it was undoubtedly radical, left-wing and progressive). Very nearly a third of the votes cast. Before that it was 12.8 million.
Not a plurality or a majority, but all of those people "social media warrior activists"?
And if not, and they were just voting because of affiliation to the Labour name or to KTTO or because they really wanted a second EU referendum or whatever, then my whole point is that a PR/similar system would allow both parties and voters to be more 'genuine' - parties could stand for what they choose to stand for and voters could vote for what/who they actually want. Then the chips can fall where they may. As I said a few posts ago, I'd rather have a system where parties (of all shades) were more able to plant their flag and stand their ground rather than the triangulation and chasing that goes on now.
That you think there's political correlation between France, Sweden, Wales and Canada is incredible. Or that 'The Squad' have much in political/ideological common with European socdem parties.
And, most amazingly of all, that you think I have any political similarities or sympathies with someone like Humza Yousaf. If you think my ideal party or government remotely resembles Yousaf or the SNP in general then, well, I don't know what to say.
turbobloke said:
They still won't learn, won't change, they know best y'see and think they're morally superior too.
Poor effort, TB. Am I supposed to change my political stances just because they're unpopular? Is that how it works? Have I ever said that I am inherently 'right' or morally superior? Have I said or implied that anyone with differing views are wrong?
Carl_VivaEspana said:
After the 'progressive' mess that's been made of Brighton, Wales, Scotland, Sweden, Canada, France and pretty much anything else 'progressive' and then seeing 'democratic socialists' like the SQUAD in the U.S.A, I would expect the polling to be pretty much where the Green/Lib Dem party currently sits - on the fringes.
It's debatable whether those places are more of a mess than the UK.France sounds like it is teetering on the edge. The impression I get is it is a lot like England in 1978 but with racial issues causing a dividing line and the Olympics adding extra risk and potential for embarrassment.
I asked a few French colleagues if they had heard of the winter of discontent. Most said no but when I told them to read the Wiki article they all said it sounds like France today.
I asked a few French colleagues if they had heard of the winter of discontent. Most said no but when I told them to read the Wiki article they all said it sounds like France today.
Mr Penguin said:
France sounds like it is teetering on the edge. The impression I get is it is a lot like England in 1978 but with racial issues causing a dividing line and the Olympics adding extra risk and potential for embarrassment.
I asked a few French colleagues if they had heard of the winter of discontent. Most said no but when I told them to read the Wiki article they all said it sounds like France today.
Dear oh dear. I asked a few French colleagues if they had heard of the winter of discontent. Most said no but when I told them to read the Wiki article they all said it sounds like France today.
Knowing that soon you will be able to carry one of these in your wallets will be fantastic
I think it will really make Sir Keir one of the family and be a reassuring visual reminder that Keir is on your side
Politics is a funny thing and it reminds me of Ed Milliband and his famous "Ed Stone"
If only Ed had decided to put his pledges on a card that folk could keep in their wallets/ purses etc things may have been different.
There would have been a connection between the Labour leader and the people.
It would have been a readily available, always to hand thing folk could relate to. Instead it looked like a gravestone you see in the posh part of a cemetery .
Sir Keir has clearly learned from Ed's mistake
It's not often I say this but today I will: Sir Keir has done well to learn from past mistakes and I for one salute him
I think it will really make Sir Keir one of the family and be a reassuring visual reminder that Keir is on your side
Politics is a funny thing and it reminds me of Ed Milliband and his famous "Ed Stone"
If only Ed had decided to put his pledges on a card that folk could keep in their wallets/ purses etc things may have been different.
There would have been a connection between the Labour leader and the people.
It would have been a readily available, always to hand thing folk could relate to. Instead it looked like a gravestone you see in the posh part of a cemetery .
Sir Keir has clearly learned from Ed's mistake
It's not often I say this but today I will: Sir Keir has done well to learn from past mistakes and I for one salute him
Also looks like Sunak's pledges and in fact many of them are, just reworded.
Lacks ambition as well of course, but then neither of the main parties has any plan to improve matters significantly so that at least is being honest. Restore economic stability?, yes that can be done to resume the virtual stagnation seen since the early 2000s. Assuming another somewhat dangerous pandemic does not come along that can, allegedly, only be countered by taking a sledgehammer to the economy.
Lacks ambition as well of course, but then neither of the main parties has any plan to improve matters significantly so that at least is being honest. Restore economic stability?, yes that can be done to resume the virtual stagnation seen since the early 2000s. Assuming another somewhat dangerous pandemic does not come along that can, allegedly, only be countered by taking a sledgehammer to the economy.
anonymoususer said:
Knowing that soon you will be able to carry one of these in your wallets will be fantastic
I think it will really make Sir Keir one of the family and be a reassuring visual reminder that Keir is on your side
Politics is a funny thing and it reminds me of Ed Milliband and his famous "Ed Stone"
If only Ed had decided to put his pledges on a card that folk could keep in their wallets/ purses etc things may have been different.
There would have been a connection between the Labour leader and the people.
It would have been a readily available, always to hand thing folk could relate to. Instead it looked like a gravestone you see in the posh part of a cemetery .
Sir Keir has clearly learned from Ed's mistake
It's not often I say this but today I will: Sir Keir has done well to learn from past mistakes and I for one salute him
I think it will really make Sir Keir one of the family and be a reassuring visual reminder that Keir is on your side
Politics is a funny thing and it reminds me of Ed Milliband and his famous "Ed Stone"
If only Ed had decided to put his pledges on a card that folk could keep in their wallets/ purses etc things may have been different.
There would have been a connection between the Labour leader and the people.
It would have been a readily available, always to hand thing folk could relate to. Instead it looked like a gravestone you see in the posh part of a cemetery .
Sir Keir has clearly learned from Ed's mistake
It's not often I say this but today I will: Sir Keir has done well to learn from past mistakes and I for one salute him
It's good to know S'Keir will Make Energy Great Again, the MEGA slogan is cool and will catch on.
anonymoususer said:
Knowing that soon you will be able to carry one of these in your wallets will be fantastic
I think it will really make Sir Keir one of the family and be a reassuring visual reminder that Keir is on your side
Politics is a funny thing and it reminds me of Ed Milliband and his famous "Ed Stone"
If only Ed had decided to put his pledges on a card that folk could keep in their wallets/ purses etc things may have been different.
There would have been a connection between the Labour leader and the people.
It would have been a readily available, always to hand thing folk could relate to. Instead it looked like a gravestone you see in the posh part of a cemetery .
Sir Keir has clearly learned from Ed's mistake
It's not often I say this but today I will: Sir Keir has done well to learn from past mistakes and I for one salute him
Will it be accompanied by a tome explaining who, why, where, what, when and how?I think it will really make Sir Keir one of the family and be a reassuring visual reminder that Keir is on your side
Politics is a funny thing and it reminds me of Ed Milliband and his famous "Ed Stone"
If only Ed had decided to put his pledges on a card that folk could keep in their wallets/ purses etc things may have been different.
There would have been a connection between the Labour leader and the people.
It would have been a readily available, always to hand thing folk could relate to. Instead it looked like a gravestone you see in the posh part of a cemetery .
Sir Keir has clearly learned from Ed's mistake
It's not often I say this but today I will: Sir Keir has done well to learn from past mistakes and I for one salute him
Tankrizzo said:
Disappointing that really isn't it. You could colour that blue and it would look the same as a bunch of Tory policies.
They're barely policies. They're "we support good things" aspirations. And incredibly vague ones at that.Policies would provide tangible answers to questions like:
1) How are you going to deliver economic stability? Is stability different from growth? For whom? To what end?
2) How are NHS waiting times going to be reduced? Increase supply, speed up process or cut demand? Or a mix (what mix?) of all three?
3) What would Border Command actually do? What powers and assets would it have?
4) What is Great British Energy? Nationalisation of the entire energy sector? To do what - lower consumer prices or to ensure renewal and security of energy supply? Including the grid? A generator? A supplier? An arms-length not-for-profit entrant into the existing energy market?
5) How? Massive investment in community facilities, youth programmes, young adult skills and development courses? Roving squadrons of AI-powered Serco-operated Daleks? Or just sending graffiti artists and climate change protestors to prison?
6) How? What will attract these new teachers (1% of the current total...) that is currently failing to do so? At what level? Will this be like the 'new nurses' that were actually just losing fewer nurses from the sector than predicted while the total still went down, or is this 6500 teaching places above current?
A good policy should provide these answers. Or if the policy announcement itself doesn't, the party's overarching ideology should be clear enough that a vaguely informed person can take a pretty good guess as to what form the nuts and bolts would take.
As they stand they're piffle. Utter piffle. Too narrow and specific to be taken as broad visionary missions. Too ephemeral to be actual policies.
About as valuable as Sir Keir's leadership 'pledges'.
anonymoususer said:
Knowing that soon you will be able to carry one of these in your wallets will be fantastic
I think it will really make Sir Keir one of the family and be a reassuring visual reminder that Keir is on your side
Politics is a funny thing and it reminds me of Ed Milliband and his famous "Ed Stone"
If only Ed had decided to put his pledges on a card that folk could keep in their wallets/ purses etc things may have been different.
I like the way he's less sure about his pledges than Milliband.I think it will really make Sir Keir one of the family and be a reassuring visual reminder that Keir is on your side
Politics is a funny thing and it reminds me of Ed Milliband and his famous "Ed Stone"
If only Ed had decided to put his pledges on a card that folk could keep in their wallets/ purses etc things may have been different.
And that the only concrete one to move the dial is to recruit 2/3s as many teachers as the Conservative target for a single year.
It's so depressing that this is the alternative.
Blair's Pledge Card said:
1) Cut class sizes to 30 or under for 5, 6 and 7-year-olds by using money from the assisted places scheme.
2) Fast-track punishment for persistent young offenders by halving the time from arrest to sentencing.
3) Cut NHS waiting lists by treating an extra 100,000 patients as a first step by releasing £100,000,000 saved from NHS red tape.
4) Get 250,000 under-25s off benefits and into work by using money from a windfall levy on the privatised utilities.
5) No rise in income tax rates, cut VAT on heating to 5% and inflation and interest rates as low as possible.
2) Fast-track punishment for persistent young offenders by halving the time from arrest to sentencing.
3) Cut NHS waiting lists by treating an extra 100,000 patients as a first step by releasing £100,000,000 saved from NHS red tape.
4) Get 250,000 under-25s off benefits and into work by using money from a windfall levy on the privatised utilities.
5) No rise in income tax rates, cut VAT on heating to 5% and inflation and interest rates as low as possible.
EdStone said:
1) A strong economic foundation
2) Higher living standards for working families
3) An NHS with the time to care
4) Controls on immigration
5) A country where the next generation can do better than the last
6) Homes to buy and action on rents
2) Higher living standards for working families
3) An NHS with the time to care
4) Controls on immigration
5) A country where the next generation can do better than the last
6) Homes to buy and action on rents
Starmer's Pledges said:
1) Sticking to tough spending rules in order to deliver economic stability
2) Cutting NHS waiting lists by providing 40,000 more appointments each week - funded by tackling tax avoidance and non-dom loopholes.
3) Launching a border security command to stop the gangs arranging small boat crossings
4) Setting up Great British Energy, a publicly owned clean power energy company
5) Providing more neighbourhood police officers to reduce antisocial behaviour and introduced new penalties for offenders
6) Recruiting 6,500 teachers, paid for through ending tax breaks for private schools.
(Healthcare, policing, and teaching only applies to England)
Most of Blair's pledges say "we are going to do this, this is how we are going to do it, this is how you know if we met it", Starmer's is good if you compare it to the EdStone.2) Cutting NHS waiting lists by providing 40,000 more appointments each week - funded by tackling tax avoidance and non-dom loopholes.
3) Launching a border security command to stop the gangs arranging small boat crossings
4) Setting up Great British Energy, a publicly owned clean power energy company
5) Providing more neighbourhood police officers to reduce antisocial behaviour and introduced new penalties for offenders
6) Recruiting 6,500 teachers, paid for through ending tax breaks for private schools.
(Healthcare, policing, and teaching only applies to England)
We have spending rules in place already, but Chancellors can and do move them to suit
Non-dom loopholes have (stupidly) already been closed off by the Tories and money allocated
Border security command needs powers and resources - just printing a new batch of hi viz vests won't do anything
Taxing private school fees will just push those parents into the state system, so we'll need the extra teachers even more desperately but with not much money to pay for it
768 said:
I like the way he's less sure about his pledges than Milliband.
And that the only concrete one to move the dial is to recruit 2/3s as many teachers as the Conservative target for a single year.
It's so depressing that this is the alternative.
It at least prompted me to look up what was on the infamous EdStone:And that the only concrete one to move the dial is to recruit 2/3s as many teachers as the Conservative target for a single year.
It's so depressing that this is the alternative.
A strong economic foundation
Higher living standards for working families
An NHS with the time to care
Controls on immigration
A country where the next generation can do better than the last
Homes to buy and action on rents
Some of these ("A strong economic foundation", "An NHS with the time to care") are also vacuous good-things aspirations.
But "A country where the next generation can do better than the last" serves as a good over-arching mission statement (remember the context of the time when generational prospects had reversed for the first time in modern history). Same for "Higher Living Standards".
"Homes to buy and action on rents" seems positively revolutionary by Starmer standards since it not only promises action on the sacred property market but in doing so also implies that 1) rents are too high and 2) government has the duty and ability to do something about that.
Amazingly, I think Starmer has come up with something more trite and vacuous than the EdStone!
Edit: On seeing Mr Penguin's post above, I've clearly been seeing a 'headline condensed' form of the new pledges, which renders some of my criticisms void. As you were...
Edited by 2xChevrons on Thursday 16th May 11:01
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