A thorny issue - illegal off-roading - any advice?
Discussion
JM said:
9 Conduct excluded from access rights
(f)being on or crossing land in or with a motorised vehicle or vessel (other than a vehicle or vessel which has been constructed or adapted for use by a person who has a disability and which is being used by such a person);
see http://www.legislation.gov.uk/asp/2003/2 if you want to read it for yourself.
Ta. That's the wording I was referring to earlier too. But been working all day so couldn't link. (f)being on or crossing land in or with a motorised vehicle or vessel (other than a vehicle or vessel which has been constructed or adapted for use by a person who has a disability and which is being used by such a person);
see http://www.legislation.gov.uk/asp/2003/2 if you want to read it for yourself.
larrylamb11 said:
lot of stuff
stop getting embroiled in arguments, there is no point and they won't help your cause. just ignore anything not pertinent to your use!Now I did give you an alternative, and you have ignored it. As far as I can see there has been no other solution that could possibly work.
to say it again, find an alternative site, block this site if possible and put up a sign telling people where the alternative site is.
Efbe said:
stop getting embroiled in arguments, there is no point and they won't help your cause. just ignore anything not pertinent to your use!
Now I did give you an alternative, and you have ignored it. As far as I can see there has been no other solution that could possibly work.
to say it again, find an alternative site, block this site if possible and put up a sign telling people where the alternative site is.
It is easy to get sucked in, but I agree - re-focusing now.Now I did give you an alternative, and you have ignored it. As far as I can see there has been no other solution that could possibly work.
to say it again, find an alternative site, block this site if possible and put up a sign telling people where the alternative site is.
Sorry, I meant to comment on your alternative and thank you for it. I could never get away with your suggestion on numerous counts - 1)It is not my land to block off, 2)It is illegal to block a byway (which is the access being used to gain entry to the common), 3)There aren't any grouse around here and as far as I am aware there are no shooting rights over the land (its public access, so could easily throw up a conflict issue), 4)The 'boundary' to the land gives rise to potential access points all along it - you could never block off or fence the whole lot. I guess it could be trenched the whole way round if there were the resources but would be a mamoth task.
It is a good idea to put up a sign with directions to the local 'pay&play' site though and I will look into that - thanks.
Your suggestion is by no means out of the question, but it would entail going through the correct channels, having the byways downgraded to restricted, dealing with the local Council and land owner etc. - it is all do-able given time if that route becomes the only one left.
larrylamb11 said:
It is easy to get sucked in, but I agree - re-focusing now.
Sorry, I meant to comment on your alternative and thank you for it. I could never get away with your suggestion on numerous counts - 1)It is not my land to block off, 2)It is illegal to block a byway (which is the access being used to gain entry to the common), 3)There aren't any grouse around here and as far as I am aware there are no shooting rights over the land (its public access, so could easily throw up a conflict issue), 4)The 'boundary' to the land gives rise to potential access points all along it - you could never block off or fence the whole lot. I guess it could be trenched the whole way round if there were the resources but would be a mamoth task.
It is a good idea to put up a sign with directions to the local 'pay&play' site though and I will look into that - thanks.
Your suggestion is by no means out of the question, but it would entail going through the correct channels, having the byways downgraded to restricted, dealing with the local Council and land owner etc. - it is all do-able given time if that route becomes the only one left.
cool, I can see your points.Sorry, I meant to comment on your alternative and thank you for it. I could never get away with your suggestion on numerous counts - 1)It is not my land to block off, 2)It is illegal to block a byway (which is the access being used to gain entry to the common), 3)There aren't any grouse around here and as far as I am aware there are no shooting rights over the land (its public access, so could easily throw up a conflict issue), 4)The 'boundary' to the land gives rise to potential access points all along it - you could never block off or fence the whole lot. I guess it could be trenched the whole way round if there were the resources but would be a mamoth task.
It is a good idea to put up a sign with directions to the local 'pay&play' site though and I will look into that - thanks.
Your suggestion is by no means out of the question, but it would entail going through the correct channels, having the byways downgraded to restricted, dealing with the local Council and land owner etc. - it is all do-able given time if that route becomes the only one left.
do try the signs with details of local pay & play, or even just of an alternative site away from houses. Quarries have always been my choice
you could actually contact a local pay&play and see if they have any adverts to post up. you could get them to do the work for you!
I know very little about all this 4x4 off roading stuff, nor do I know anything about byways.
Would I be correct in saying that byways are unmade roads that have been a right of way for a very long time (like sort of since Robin Hood times)???
If I've sort of got that right and these byways have been open and used for maybe hundreds of years without being damaged to the point of being made impassable - why do some people now seemingly think it's acceptable to rip up these places up and make them impassable just cos 4x4 have been invented? I just don't get it!
As for the op's pics of the woods, it does make me sad to the point of angry that anybody would want to spoil what would have been a natural wood which was probably unspoilt by human activity for hundreds of years until a 4x4 decided to rip it up.
I'm no tree hugger by any means, but I like to think of myself as conscience and sensible.
Even if I had a 4x4 I would no more consider ripping up untouched countryside as I would trying to pull down Stonehenge if I owned a wrecking truck.
Rant over.
Would I be correct in saying that byways are unmade roads that have been a right of way for a very long time (like sort of since Robin Hood times)???
If I've sort of got that right and these byways have been open and used for maybe hundreds of years without being damaged to the point of being made impassable - why do some people now seemingly think it's acceptable to rip up these places up and make them impassable just cos 4x4 have been invented? I just don't get it!
As for the op's pics of the woods, it does make me sad to the point of angry that anybody would want to spoil what would have been a natural wood which was probably unspoilt by human activity for hundreds of years until a 4x4 decided to rip it up.
I'm no tree hugger by any means, but I like to think of myself as conscience and sensible.
Even if I had a 4x4 I would no more consider ripping up untouched countryside as I would trying to pull down Stonehenge if I owned a wrecking truck.
Rant over.
Just curious, but do you get upset when you see a ploughed field, or rows of crops? Have you seen British countryside from the air? It is as artificial as you can get, then you have the manicured front lawns, and concrete patio gardens. There is nothing 'unnatural' about mud. It is merely wet soil. Consideration for other users is another issue.
Planks with nails in them at the bottom of the ponds that now cover the paths. No one else will go near them, just people in 4x4s. Impossible to spot and once a few vehicles have had their tyres wrecked they'll soon stop coming.
So sad to see such a beautiful wood being destroyed by idiots.
So sad to see such a beautiful wood being destroyed by idiots.
TheHeretic said:
Just curious, but do you get upset when you see a ploughed field, or rows of crops? Have you seen British countryside from the air? It is as artificial as you can get, then you have the manicured front lawns, and concrete patio gardens. There is nothing 'unnatural' about mud. It is merely wet soil. Consideration for other users is another issue.
Most ploughed fields have not been untouched for hundreds of years - as you quite rightly point out there is very little countryside left. Forests and woods went hundreds of years ago and farming has changed the landscape forever. Which is even more reason why byways and woodland should be protected from the minority of 4x4ers who think they have the god given right to destroy what's left. Devil2575 said:
Planks with nails in them at the bottom of the ponds that now cover the paths. No one else will go near them, just people in 4x4s. Impossible to spot and once a few vehicles have had their tyres wrecked they'll soon stop coming.
There is/was a farmer in Derbyshire who tried that. Felt really smug about it all until a horse threw its rider and he ended up in Court.
Crossflow Kid said:
Devil2575 said:
Planks with nails in them at the bottom of the ponds that now cover the paths. No one else will go near them, just people in 4x4s. Impossible to spot and once a few vehicles have had their tyres wrecked they'll soon stop coming.
There is/was a farmer in Derbyshire who tried that. Felt really smug about it all until a horse threw its rider and he ended up in Court.
Even if they did they would likely avoid the deep ruts/pools of water.
However anything that could potentially injure the public would not be wise so I would not advocate anyone carry out my suggestion. It was merely thinking aloud.
This may be an over simplification:
So... I have a vehicle that can hit a pretty high speed in a short space of time - can I use it to it's full capabilities in a public space? No - I have to pay to use a proper facility where it bothers no one how much fun and how much noise I make.
Same applies to cars that do this weird thing called "corners" - they have to go and play on a race track to have a chance to use the car to it's full extent.
But... you have a 4x4 so ergo it's fine for you to use public land to the exclusion of all others. Get a grip - the world is changing, you want to play off road go and use a dedicated site in the same way as the other areas above.
So... I have a vehicle that can hit a pretty high speed in a short space of time - can I use it to it's full capabilities in a public space? No - I have to pay to use a proper facility where it bothers no one how much fun and how much noise I make.
Same applies to cars that do this weird thing called "corners" - they have to go and play on a race track to have a chance to use the car to it's full extent.
But... you have a 4x4 so ergo it's fine for you to use public land to the exclusion of all others. Get a grip - the world is changing, you want to play off road go and use a dedicated site in the same way as the other areas above.
Regarding that load of photos up there ^^^ of all the mud and ruts in the trees.
Does whoever posted that (300bhp?) really think that's acceptable and normal? Or that anyone could walk in that?
It's a bloody disgrace!!!
What a mess left by a load of inconsiderate idiots. "That water would be there anyway"! No it wouldn't - look at the surrounding area which hasn't been f
ked up by 4x4s - where's the water pools there? Oh, there aren't any! 
The reason there are great big muddy puddles is because there a bloody great ruts for the water to pool in and not earth for it to sink into, the mud bottom of the ruts stops this (a bit like "puddling" seals a canal).
I like off roading on my bike (and I'd like it in a car) but I'm considerate to the land I ride on and to the enjoyment of others on the land - those pics are a disgrace and I pains me to admit it but I'm with the RA on this - wheeled vehicles need banning if this is what they do. Again it's a case of a selfish minority ruining things for everyone else. There are dedicated places you can go and pay to mess around in terrain like that - similarly if I want to go tear-arsing around on my enduro bike I'll enter a rally or do a day at Sweet Lamb in Wales.
We live in a small, overcrowded country and in most of it doing that is just awful.
Does whoever posted that (300bhp?) really think that's acceptable and normal? Or that anyone could walk in that?
It's a bloody disgrace!!!
What a mess left by a load of inconsiderate idiots. "That water would be there anyway"! No it wouldn't - look at the surrounding area which hasn't been f
ked up by 4x4s - where's the water pools there? Oh, there aren't any! The reason there are great big muddy puddles is because there a bloody great ruts for the water to pool in and not earth for it to sink into, the mud bottom of the ruts stops this (a bit like "puddling" seals a canal).I like off roading on my bike (and I'd like it in a car) but I'm considerate to the land I ride on and to the enjoyment of others on the land - those pics are a disgrace and I pains me to admit it but I'm with the RA on this - wheeled vehicles need banning if this is what they do. Again it's a case of a selfish minority ruining things for everyone else. There are dedicated places you can go and pay to mess around in terrain like that - similarly if I want to go tear-arsing around on my enduro bike I'll enter a rally or do a day at Sweet Lamb in Wales.
We live in a small, overcrowded country and in most of it doing that is just awful.
IMO anyone defending the utter destruction of the forest in the photos above is a selfish wker that does not deserve to enjoy the beautiful countryside we currently have.
Re. the field question - if I was looking onto someone else's property and knew my actions would damage it, I'd turn round and do something else instead. The field will still be there next month, and it'll still be in good condition if I don't carve it up. I might have a legal right of access, but I have no moral right to bugger it up for everyone else - to do so would make me a selfish ahole.
ker that does not deserve to enjoy the beautiful countryside we currently have. Re. the field question - if I was looking onto someone else's property and knew my actions would damage it, I'd turn round and do something else instead. The field will still be there next month, and it'll still be in good condition if I don't carve it up. I might have a legal right of access, but I have no moral right to bugger it up for everyone else - to do so would make me a selfish a
hole.BrettMRC said:
This may be an over simplification:
So... I have a vehicle that can hit a pretty high speed in a short space of time - can I use it to it's full capabilities in a public space? No - I have to pay to use a proper facility where it bothers no one how much fun and how much noise I make.
Same applies to cars that do this weird thing called "corners" - they have to go and play on a race track to have a chance to use the car to it's full extent.
But... you have a 4x4 so ergo it's fine for you to use public land to the exclusion of all others. Get a grip - the world is changing, you want to play off road go and use a dedicated site in the same way as the other areas above.
You would think it was quite simple wouldn't you? So... I have a vehicle that can hit a pretty high speed in a short space of time - can I use it to it's full capabilities in a public space? No - I have to pay to use a proper facility where it bothers no one how much fun and how much noise I make.
Same applies to cars that do this weird thing called "corners" - they have to go and play on a race track to have a chance to use the car to it's full extent.
But... you have a 4x4 so ergo it's fine for you to use public land to the exclusion of all others. Get a grip - the world is changing, you want to play off road go and use a dedicated site in the same way as the other areas above.
But then you get arguments like this (my bold):
crusty said:
Pothole said:
o, people who find it impossible to abide by the law in their leisure pursuits have made the situation worse. There is no entitlement to do whatever the fk you like in a civilised, democratic society.
Really?k you like in a civilised, democratic society.Didn't realise anyone could miss the point so spectacularly
This isn't about people breaking the law this about f
king tts like you not understanding that if you remove all previously legal places to ride then eventually they will start riding illegallyFollowed this thread with interest. A lot of opinions from both camps on here.
The local authority are required to maintain byways. Very few bother especially these days, which is why so many are in such poor condition now. I actually have given up time in the past as part of an organised group to perform repairs on a byway. The result? The council slapped a TRO on it a month later. Now it's too overgrown for any rambler or cyclist to get down it. This happens a lot - if byways aren't driven they quickly become impassable to everyone. When was the last time you saw a walker or a cyclist cutting overgrowth back?
I would expect it to be up to the Council to protect the common land. Have you approached them about the problem? It can't be that hard for them to block off the access points - other councils manage to do it. It's clearly not a priority for yours and you need to make it one by lobbying your councillors.
The local authority are required to maintain byways. Very few bother especially these days, which is why so many are in such poor condition now. I actually have given up time in the past as part of an organised group to perform repairs on a byway. The result? The council slapped a TRO on it a month later. Now it's too overgrown for any rambler or cyclist to get down it. This happens a lot - if byways aren't driven they quickly become impassable to everyone. When was the last time you saw a walker or a cyclist cutting overgrowth back?
I would expect it to be up to the Council to protect the common land. Have you approached them about the problem? It can't be that hard for them to block off the access points - other councils manage to do it. It's clearly not a priority for yours and you need to make it one by lobbying your councillors.
Edited by kooky guy on Tuesday 19th February 09:35
Devil2575 said:
Planks with nails in them at the bottom of the ponds that now cover the paths. No one else will go near them, just people in 4x4s. Impossible to spot and once a few vehicles have had their tyres wrecked they'll soon stop coming.
So sad to see such a beautiful wood being destroyed by idiots.
What a bellend, not the only one on here today, I can think of a better use of planks with nails in them (slapping nimbys)So sad to see such a beautiful wood being destroyed by idiots.
My disco never goes off road apart from track on golf course but if I did want to take it off road I wouldn't let any of you lot stop me (free country, supposedly
car crazy said:
What a bellend, not the only one on here today, I can think of a better use of planks with nails in them (slapping nimbys)
My disco never goes off road apart from track on golf course but if I did want to take it off road I wouldn't let any of you lot stop me (free country, supposedly
I'm going to organise a rave outside your house. My disco never goes off road apart from track on golf course but if I did want to take it off road I wouldn't let any of you lot stop me (free country, supposedly
It's a free country innit. I know my rights.
car crazy said:
My disco never goes off road apart from track on golf course but if I did want to take it off road I wouldn't let any of you lot stop me (free country, supposedly
Another well considered comment where other peoples consideration and enjoyment of the countryside has been taken into account.I would genuinely enjoy reading a report that a numpty just like you had taken it upon himself to go off roading across each and every green of the golf course you use.
Wow. Just read all 9 pages of this and it enlivened a very boring morning
As an impartial reader of this thread (honest!) I would categorise the argument this far as:
OP: Illegal offroading activity is taking place that is damaging local land, how do I stop it?
4x4 Brigade: You don't get it we should be allowed to go wherever we want etc
Everyone else: It is I...L...L...E...G...A...L activity.
Did I miss anything?
As an impartial reader of this thread (honest!) I would categorise the argument this far as:
OP: Illegal offroading activity is taking place that is damaging local land, how do I stop it?
4x4 Brigade: You don't get it we should be allowed to go wherever we want etc
Everyone else: It is I...L...L...E...G...A...L activity.
Did I miss anything?
Siko said:
Wow. Just read all 9 pages of this and it enlivened a very boring morning
As an impartial reader of this thread (honest!) I would categorise the argument this far as:
OP: Illegal offroading activity is taking place that is damaging local land, how do I stop it?
4x4 Brigade: You don't get it we should be allowed to go wherever we want etc
Everyone else: It is I...L...L...E...G...A...L activity.
Did I miss anything?
just 300bhp/ton claiming that 4x4s do less damage than horses/bicycles/badgers/pixies when going offroad.As an impartial reader of this thread (honest!) I would categorise the argument this far as:
OP: Illegal offroading activity is taking place that is damaging local land, how do I stop it?
4x4 Brigade: You don't get it we should be allowed to go wherever we want etc
Everyone else: It is I...L...L...E...G...A...L activity.
Did I miss anything?
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