1st March - 6points for mobile phone use at the wheel

[agtlaw]

Engineer792 said:

Strictly speaking, you could be prosecuted for getting into your car and starting the engine before putting your mobile in its cradle.

It also depends where you are. A quirk of the mobile phone legislation is that the offence can only be committed "on a road." Not, as is more common for traffic offences, "on a road or other public place."

[Engineer792]

agtlaw said:

Engineer792 said:

Strictly speaking, you could be prosecuted for getting into your car and starting the engine before putting your mobile in its cradle.

It also depends where you are. A quirk of the mobile phone legislation is that the offence can only be committed "on a road." Not, as is more common for traffic offences, "on a road or other public place."

So you could be prosecuted for such a small slip while getting into your car which happens to be parked on the road, but you can quite happily compose tweets while driving around a crowded supermarket car park.

[agtlaw]

Engineer792 said:

So you could be prosecuted for such a small slip while getting into your car which happens to be parked on the road, but you can quite happily compose tweets while driving around a crowded supermarket car park.

You have to be driving for the offence to apply. Getting into the car doesn't sound like driving to me.

[nickfrog]

ashleyman said:

For example, imagine I was looking at a piece of paper that had written down instructions of my journey and final destination whilst on the phone using my cars handsfree.

For whatever reason this was mistaken for me holding and using a mobile phone by a passing Police officer. I was then pulled over and accused of being on the phone. I make my defence and show the paper but they ask to see my phone and see that I was on a call a few minutes previously.

I know I wasn't on the phone. The Police officer accuses me of being on the phone. What happens then? Well, I'm more likely to be prosecuted for something I am not guilty of.

You'll probably be guilty of driving without due care and attention anyway if you're "looking at a piece of paper" rather than concentrate on the driving aspect of being behind the wheel.

[Engineer792]

agtlaw said:

Engineer792 said:

So you could be prosecuted for such a small slip while getting into your car which happens to be parked on the road, but you can quite happily compose tweets while driving around a crowded supermarket car park.

You have to be driving for the offence to apply. Getting into the car doesn't sound like driving to me.

No, but neither does starting your engine before putting your phone in its cradle sound like driving to me.

The fuss is around the legal definition of driving.

[agtlaw]

Engineer792 said:

No, but neither does starting your engine before putting your phone in its cradle sound like driving to me.

The fuss is around the legal definition of driving.

If it helps, when the mobile phone legislation was introduced, the government said this:

"We accept the view that it is unnecessary for a vehicle to be parked with the engine switched off in order to avoid prosecution." DfT, 2003.

[ashleyman]

nickfrog said:

ashleyman said:

For example, imagine I was looking at a piece of paper that had written down instructions of my journey and final destination whilst on the phone using my cars handsfree.

For whatever reason this was mistaken for me holding and using a mobile phone by a passing Police officer. I was then pulled over and accused of being on the phone. I make my defence and show the paper but they ask to see my phone and see that I was on a call a few minutes previously.

I know I wasn't on the phone. The Police officer accuses me of being on the phone. What happens then? Well, I'm more likely to be prosecuted for something I am not guilty of.

You'll probably be guilty of driving without due care and attention anyway if you're "looking at a piece of paper" rather than concentrate on the driving aspect of being behind the wheel.

Thats my point. If the officer was able to make the definition between a phone and a piece of paper, being seen to have a piece of paper in hand is not an offence. So by his mistake and false accusation you're now guilty of DWDCA.

[Engineer792]

agtlaw said:

Engineer792 said:

No, but neither does starting your engine before putting your phone in its cradle sound like driving to me.

The fuss is around the legal definition of driving.

If it helps, when the mobile phone legislation was introduced, the government said this:

"We accept the view that it is unnecessary for a vehicle to be parked with the engine switched off in order to avoid prosecution." DfT, 2003.

That's what was said by the government then.
But what does the law actually say now?
And, more to the point, how is it being interpreted?

[ukaskew]

42 drivers caught in Dorset in 6 hours yesterday, first one 5 minutes after the police got in position. One in Hampshire caught already had 27 points and another had their licence less than 2 years so faces a retest...

http://www.wiltshiretimes.co.uk/news/15129019.PHON...

Edited by ukaskew on Friday 3rd March 13:22

[nickfrog]

ashleyman said:

Thats my point. If the officer was able to make the definition between a phone and a piece of paper, being seen to have a piece of paper in hand is not an offence.

My point is that it would be DWDCA too if you're looking at that piece of paper.

[agtlaw]

Engineer792 said:

That's what was said by the government then.
But what does the law actually say now?
And, more to the point, how is it being interpreted?

Pepper v Hart.
It says look at things like the DfT statement.
As above.

[speedking31]

Following Croyde's post:

BBC said:

Among young people in America, texting is now the number one cause of car crashes.

BBC.

Seems unlikely, but on the other hand, maybe.

[nish81]

speedking31 said:

ut the HC description of parked includes "•you MUST switch off the engine,", so it appears to me that the policeman was correct and could have dealt out 6 points.

You are right - looks like automatic stop-start is a must-have on the next car now

[nish81]

SS2. said:

Loophole ? You seem to be implying that parliament completely overlooked hands-free use when they were drafting the mobile phone legislation ?

well it's strange if it's fine to text/check facebook/fiddle with the music as long as the phone is held in a cradle and not your hand. I expect that the mobile phone wasn't such a multi-purpose device when parliament drafted this legislation, so they just imagined people holding it to their ears and talking vs not?

[STO]

pingu393 said:

Was it a BBC journo who was caught? The Beeb website was totally empty of this story. It must be fake news, as the BBC never misses a story, or bigs up a non-story

Does n`t say who she works for but proberly not the Oxford Mail.
http://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/15126699.Reporter...

[Dave Hedgehog]

nish81 said:

SS2. said:

Loophole ? You seem to be implying that parliament completely overlooked hands-free use when they were drafting the mobile phone legislation ?

well it's strange if it's fine to text/check facebook/fiddle with the music as long as the phone is held in a cradle and not your hand. I expect that the mobile phone wasn't such a multi-purpose device when parliament drafted this legislation, so they just imagined people holding it to their ears and talking vs not?

or maybe they had brains and decided banning people from changing their radios / other car controls whilst driving was a bit stupid

[Pip1968]

nish81 said:

speedking31 said:

ut the HC description of parked includes "•you MUST switch off the engine,", so it appears to me that the policeman was correct and could have dealt out 6 points.

You are right - looks like automatic stop-start is a must-have on the next car now

I was of the understanding that the keys need to be out of the ignition too for you deemed to not be driving so Stop/Start and keys out. Then you can take those life saving phone calls.

Pip

[agtlaw]

Pip1968 said:

I was of the understanding that the keys need to be out of the ignition too for you deemed to not be driving so Stop/Start and keys out. Then you can take those life saving phone calls.

Pip

That's a misunderstanding.

[RDMcG]

Despite stiff fines and points it is a huge problem in Canada and about the same rate of causing accidents as alcohol. The police have some ingenious ways to catch people too. Riding in buses so they can see down into cars and radioing it in. Dressed as beggars at intersections.
Unlike drunk driving which is socially as well as legally unacceptable texting is seen as just fine by many people. I was at a Porsche coffee meeting a while ago where you might think people with faster cars would be much more vigilant and was amazed how many younger drivers felt it was ok. They "only glanced occasionally".
It needs campaigns to make it socially unacceptable as well as legal enforcement.

[pingu393]

Scenario:

Thousands of cars stuck in snow or motorway stopped for many hours. It's cold and engines are on to keep warm / stop batteries going flat. Plod are there, but not enforcing the law - or do they?