A thorny issue - illegal off-roading - any advice?
Discussion
Smiler. said:
Not necessary sunshine, you've done an expert job for yourself.
So, do you have an answer then or can you only manage condecending?Or do you only do the smart remarks, like "all off roaders are morons"?
Serious question, if you want to ride or drive off road in the UK and all your options are being shut down, what do you do?
Boshly said:
Natural England are Nimby's???
From their website...Enjoying the natural environment
Natural England wants to ensure that everybody has the opportunity to use, understand, engage with and be inspired by the natural environment. We also want an increasing number of people to take action to conserve it.
There are many places where you can enjoy the natural environment, whether you're looking for healthy exercise, the challenge of a long walk, a horse or cycle ride, or whether you want to experience nature, or appreciate its quiet tranquillity and inspiring landscapes.
Does that come across as an agency that would support off road motorised sport?
Time for a reasoned view on this thread.
I've been off-roading and green-laning since the eighties and I also count as a land owner and I've seen what's happened over the past thirty years.
When I started laning it was very much a minority interest. Small groups of two or three largely standard Series motors or Suzukis would go and drive a few local lanes they had identified as having vehicular rights by visiting the definitive map at the local council offices. There would be no real mods to the vehicles save maybe a set of 750x16 SATs and one of us carrying a hi-lift jack. Most of the people we met were friendly if a bit confused as to why we would want to drive muddy old lanes. Most laners were in the ARC or AWDC clubs and took part in repair parties to go and fix damaged lanes on Sundays and some of us got into working with PHAB to take physically handicapped kids out for off-road rides.
Then it changed - the people laning were no longer slightly nerdy types in standard vehicles, they were louder, they were lifted, they had 35" tyres and lockers. The GLASS rules about treading lightly, never exceeding 20mph and never driving a lane that may be damaged were not just ignored, they were simply not known about or cared about by most. They would never even consider taking out a Sunday to go and repair damaged lanes. When faced with an old green Series III pottering along a lane, most ramblers and riders are entirely unconcerned, especially if you pulled over for them or offered them a cuppa from your volcano kettle. What turns them against laning is being confronted by a lifted shogun on big tyres trying to use revs and momentum to clear a ditch as they try to walk or ride by. Anyone who can't tell the difference between a pay and play day and a green lane shouldn't be laning.
So for me that's the basis of it - laning has become anti-social because laners have become anti-social. There were always nimbys but they had little ammo when laning was subtle and laners gave back at least as much as they took. Now most people see laners as nothing more than yobs who don't give a toss about the environment and given your average contemporary laner, I can't blame them.
I've been off-roading and green-laning since the eighties and I also count as a land owner and I've seen what's happened over the past thirty years.
When I started laning it was very much a minority interest. Small groups of two or three largely standard Series motors or Suzukis would go and drive a few local lanes they had identified as having vehicular rights by visiting the definitive map at the local council offices. There would be no real mods to the vehicles save maybe a set of 750x16 SATs and one of us carrying a hi-lift jack. Most of the people we met were friendly if a bit confused as to why we would want to drive muddy old lanes. Most laners were in the ARC or AWDC clubs and took part in repair parties to go and fix damaged lanes on Sundays and some of us got into working with PHAB to take physically handicapped kids out for off-road rides.
Then it changed - the people laning were no longer slightly nerdy types in standard vehicles, they were louder, they were lifted, they had 35" tyres and lockers. The GLASS rules about treading lightly, never exceeding 20mph and never driving a lane that may be damaged were not just ignored, they were simply not known about or cared about by most. They would never even consider taking out a Sunday to go and repair damaged lanes. When faced with an old green Series III pottering along a lane, most ramblers and riders are entirely unconcerned, especially if you pulled over for them or offered them a cuppa from your volcano kettle. What turns them against laning is being confronted by a lifted shogun on big tyres trying to use revs and momentum to clear a ditch as they try to walk or ride by. Anyone who can't tell the difference between a pay and play day and a green lane shouldn't be laning.
So for me that's the basis of it - laning has become anti-social because laners have become anti-social. There were always nimbys but they had little ammo when laning was subtle and laners gave back at least as much as they took. Now most people see laners as nothing more than yobs who don't give a toss about the environment and given your average contemporary laner, I can't blame them.
I agree, but the considerate layers are out there, and always have been. Unfortunately they are being treated wrongly as knobs. These are the chaps who, as you say, use tread lightly, close gates behind them, pull up for other lane users, etc. As I have already said on this thread, I resent being piled in with the hooligans but looking at this thread the 'off road brigade' are all piled together in one tarred and feathered group.
rscott said:
just 300bhp/ton claiming that 4x4s do less damage than horses/bicycles/badgers/pixies when going offroad.
Well he's sort of got a point. More paths are damaged in the Peak District by the millions of Size 9 Brashers that go stomping across it every year acompared to the few hundred 4x4s.But let's not allow numbers to stand in the way of a good ol' fashioned Daily mail hate campaign stirred up by bored nimbys with no sex life.
Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 19th February 20:41
Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 19th February 20:42
Caulkhead said:
Then it changed - the people laning were no longer slightly nerdy types in standard vehicles, they were louder, they were lifted, they had 35" tyres and lockers. The GLASS rules about treading lightly, never exceeding 20mph and never driving a lane that may be damaged were not just ignored, they were simply not known about or cared about by most. They would never even consider taking out a Sunday to go and repair damaged lanes. When faced with an old green Series III pottering along a lane, most ramblers and riders are entirely unconcerned, especially if you pulled over for them or offered them a cuppa from your volcano kettle. What turns them against laning is being confronted by a lifted shogun on big tyres trying to use revs and momentum to clear a ditch as they try to walk or ride by. Anyone who can't tell the difference between a pay and play day and a green lane shouldn't be laning.
Very good post. Even on Salisbury Plain, where Wilts CC and the MoD were previously fairly relaxed on the basis a Land Rover won't do more damage than a Chally2, genuine laners are being squeezed out by the One Brain Cell, Share It brigade. Last New year there was a group of 60+ in one convoy.Caulkhead said:
Time for a reasoned view on this thread.
I've been off-roading and green-laning since the eighties and I also count as a land owner and I've seen what's happened over the past thirty years.
When I started laning it was very much a minority interest. Small groups of two or three largely standard Series motors or Suzukis would go and drive a few local lanes they had identified as having vehicular rights by visiting the definitive map at the local council offices. There would be no real mods to the vehicles save maybe a set of 750x16 SATs and one of us carrying a hi-lift jack. Most of the people we met were friendly if a bit confused as to why we would want to drive muddy old lanes. Most laners were in the ARC or AWDC clubs and took part in repair parties to go and fix damaged lanes on Sundays and some of us got into working with PHAB to take physically handicapped kids out for off-road rides.
Then it changed - the people laning were no longer slightly nerdy types in standard vehicles, they were louder, they were lifted, they had 35" tyres and lockers. The GLASS rules about treading lightly, never exceeding 20mph and never driving a lane that may be damaged were not just ignored, they were simply not known about or cared about by most. They would never even consider taking out a Sunday to go and repair damaged lanes. When faced with an old green Series III pottering along a lane, most ramblers and riders are entirely unconcerned, especially if you pulled over for them or offered them a cuppa from your volcano kettle. What turns them against laning is being confronted by a lifted shogun on big tyres trying to use revs and momentum to clear a ditch as they try to walk or ride by. Anyone who can't tell the difference between a pay and play day and a green lane shouldn't be laning.
So for me that's the basis of it - laning has become anti-social because laners have become anti-social. There were always nimbys but they had little ammo when laning was subtle and laners gave back at least as much as they took. Now most people see laners as nothing more than yobs who don't give a toss about the environment and given your average contemporary laner, I can't blame them.
agreed.I've been off-roading and green-laning since the eighties and I also count as a land owner and I've seen what's happened over the past thirty years.
When I started laning it was very much a minority interest. Small groups of two or three largely standard Series motors or Suzukis would go and drive a few local lanes they had identified as having vehicular rights by visiting the definitive map at the local council offices. There would be no real mods to the vehicles save maybe a set of 750x16 SATs and one of us carrying a hi-lift jack. Most of the people we met were friendly if a bit confused as to why we would want to drive muddy old lanes. Most laners were in the ARC or AWDC clubs and took part in repair parties to go and fix damaged lanes on Sundays and some of us got into working with PHAB to take physically handicapped kids out for off-road rides.
Then it changed - the people laning were no longer slightly nerdy types in standard vehicles, they were louder, they were lifted, they had 35" tyres and lockers. The GLASS rules about treading lightly, never exceeding 20mph and never driving a lane that may be damaged were not just ignored, they were simply not known about or cared about by most. They would never even consider taking out a Sunday to go and repair damaged lanes. When faced with an old green Series III pottering along a lane, most ramblers and riders are entirely unconcerned, especially if you pulled over for them or offered them a cuppa from your volcano kettle. What turns them against laning is being confronted by a lifted shogun on big tyres trying to use revs and momentum to clear a ditch as they try to walk or ride by. Anyone who can't tell the difference between a pay and play day and a green lane shouldn't be laning.
So for me that's the basis of it - laning has become anti-social because laners have become anti-social. There were always nimbys but they had little ammo when laning was subtle and laners gave back at least as much as they took. Now most people see laners as nothing more than yobs who don't give a toss about the environment and given your average contemporary laner, I can't blame them.
but what I am also seeing is small quarries that have been disused for decades, miles from anywhere being closed off so 4x4s have no-where left to go.
The famous one near to where I live, that I'm sure a few people on here will know is flappits:
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=hx2+6bj&hl=en&...
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=flappi...
it has been used for absolutely ages, and was the single place everyone around this area went to to offroad.
So the council closed it down.
And what do they expect to happen, people just to sell their offroaders they have spent years working on and playing with?
And this is what I was trying to explain earlier. Without an alternative it will not stop. If you block off the places people can go, then they will move and probably cause more disruption.
Edited by Efbe on Tuesday 19th February 20:54
Efbe said:
Caulkhead said:
Time for a reasoned view on this thread.
I've been off-roading and green-laning since the eighties and I also count as a land owner and I've seen what's happened over the past thirty years.
When I started laning it was very much a minority interest. Small groups of two or three largely standard Series motors or Suzukis would go and drive a few local lanes they had identified as having vehicular rights by visiting the definitive map at the local council offices. There would be no real mods to the vehicles save maybe a set of 750x16 SATs and one of us carrying a hi-lift jack. Most of the people we met were friendly if a bit confused as to why we would want to drive muddy old lanes. Most laners were in the ARC or AWDC clubs and took part in repair parties to go and fix damaged lanes on Sundays and some of us got into working with PHAB to take physically handicapped kids out for off-road rides.
Then it changed - the people laning were no longer slightly nerdy types in standard vehicles, they were louder, they were lifted, they had 35" tyres and lockers. The GLASS rules about treading lightly, never exceeding 20mph and never driving a lane that may be damaged were not just ignored, they were simply not known about or cared about by most. They would never even consider taking out a Sunday to go and repair damaged lanes. When faced with an old green Series III pottering along a lane, most ramblers and riders are entirely unconcerned, especially if you pulled over for them or offered them a cuppa from your volcano kettle. What turns them against laning is being confronted by a lifted shogun on big tyres trying to use revs and momentum to clear a ditch as they try to walk or ride by. Anyone who can't tell the difference between a pay and play day and a green lane shouldn't be laning.
So for me that's the basis of it - laning has become anti-social because laners have become anti-social. There were always nimbys but they had little ammo when laning was subtle and laners gave back at least as much as they took. Now most people see laners as nothing more than yobs who don't give a toss about the environment and given your average contemporary laner, I can't blame them.
agreed.I've been off-roading and green-laning since the eighties and I also count as a land owner and I've seen what's happened over the past thirty years.
When I started laning it was very much a minority interest. Small groups of two or three largely standard Series motors or Suzukis would go and drive a few local lanes they had identified as having vehicular rights by visiting the definitive map at the local council offices. There would be no real mods to the vehicles save maybe a set of 750x16 SATs and one of us carrying a hi-lift jack. Most of the people we met were friendly if a bit confused as to why we would want to drive muddy old lanes. Most laners were in the ARC or AWDC clubs and took part in repair parties to go and fix damaged lanes on Sundays and some of us got into working with PHAB to take physically handicapped kids out for off-road rides.
Then it changed - the people laning were no longer slightly nerdy types in standard vehicles, they were louder, they were lifted, they had 35" tyres and lockers. The GLASS rules about treading lightly, never exceeding 20mph and never driving a lane that may be damaged were not just ignored, they were simply not known about or cared about by most. They would never even consider taking out a Sunday to go and repair damaged lanes. When faced with an old green Series III pottering along a lane, most ramblers and riders are entirely unconcerned, especially if you pulled over for them or offered them a cuppa from your volcano kettle. What turns them against laning is being confronted by a lifted shogun on big tyres trying to use revs and momentum to clear a ditch as they try to walk or ride by. Anyone who can't tell the difference between a pay and play day and a green lane shouldn't be laning.
So for me that's the basis of it - laning has become anti-social because laners have become anti-social. There were always nimbys but they had little ammo when laning was subtle and laners gave back at least as much as they took. Now most people see laners as nothing more than yobs who don't give a toss about the environment and given your average contemporary laner, I can't blame them.
but what I am also seeing is small quarries that have been disused for decades, miles from anywhere being closed off so 4x4s have no-where left to go.
The famous one near to where I live, that I'm sure a few people on here will know is flappets:
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=hx2+6bj&hl=en&...
http://www.youtube.com/results?hl=en&q=flappet...
it has been used for absolutely ages, and was the single place everyone around this area went to to offroad.
So the council closed it down.
And what do they expect to happen, people just to sell their offroaders they have spent years working on and playing with?
And this is what I was trying to explain earlier. Without an alternative it will not stop. If you block off the places people can go, then they will move and probably cause more disruption.
We do not have a right to an alternative. We have a responsibility to not abuse what we have. As long as people green lane like it's a competitive motorsport it will become more and more hated and more TRO's will be applied and more lanes re-classified. When this happens and there are no lanes left, those who mistakenly think they have a right to off-road without caring about their responsibilities will find themselves left with just pay and play days and they will blame the nimbys instead of taking responsibility for the loss of legal green lanes on their own actions.
Like many have already stated, i dont condone illegal riding but due to the bad hand off roading has been delt I cant blame them either and there are many people who have no interest in off roading who will have no idea of the things that have gone on to push off roaders to the edge.
Fron the late 60,s through to the 90,s councils were told at various times to sort out rights of way,it wasnt just byways you had RUPPS,BOATS,UCR,S but most councils dragged their heels to update the definative map that each council has that records every road in the council boundry.Main reason was if the council added the UCR or whatever to the map they were then responsible for its upkeep so many councils ignored their duty and just carried on .
Not all councils were the same the best example of this is the Ridgeway the longest and one of the oldest trails in England,the only part you can ride now is the Wiltshire section-And the reason is the rights of way officer in Wiltshire was in favour of off roading and actually did his job and classified the ridgeway in his area,the other 4 councils just ignored their duty !!!!
There was some hope for the off rd community in the yr 2000 with the crow act when since the councils were ignoring the goverment a time limit of 25 yrs was adopted for any interested party to do all the leg work and put all the paperwork in and put a claim in to get the path/track whatever recorded.
The off rd community started to put in a massive amount of work in starting to claim trails (note these werent new trails,these were trails that people had riden and driven from the 1920,s/30,s
Then BANG ! Labour brings out the NERC act in 2006 and at a stroke any trail not recorded becomes a restricted byway and cant be driven or riden on,people in some counties had 2/3 hundred miles of trails and the next day only 15/20 miles of trails (if they were lucky !!!) The trails network use to have almost a "natural" order to it,the trails flowed and lead somewhere and you could link several up for a good trip. Now many are short dead ends
Many restricted byways now see little foot traffic as without the vehicle traffic they have become overgrown very quickly
just think how you would feel as a car driver or walker or horse rider if you woke up in the morning and you couldnt use 90% of the roads/footpaths or bridal ways ?
funniest thing is the people who are most anti off roading are the ramblers-an organisation that was created via mass protest and tresspass !
Fron the late 60,s through to the 90,s councils were told at various times to sort out rights of way,it wasnt just byways you had RUPPS,BOATS,UCR,S but most councils dragged their heels to update the definative map that each council has that records every road in the council boundry.Main reason was if the council added the UCR or whatever to the map they were then responsible for its upkeep so many councils ignored their duty and just carried on .
Not all councils were the same the best example of this is the Ridgeway the longest and one of the oldest trails in England,the only part you can ride now is the Wiltshire section-And the reason is the rights of way officer in Wiltshire was in favour of off roading and actually did his job and classified the ridgeway in his area,the other 4 councils just ignored their duty !!!!
There was some hope for the off rd community in the yr 2000 with the crow act when since the councils were ignoring the goverment a time limit of 25 yrs was adopted for any interested party to do all the leg work and put all the paperwork in and put a claim in to get the path/track whatever recorded.
The off rd community started to put in a massive amount of work in starting to claim trails (note these werent new trails,these were trails that people had riden and driven from the 1920,s/30,s
Then BANG ! Labour brings out the NERC act in 2006 and at a stroke any trail not recorded becomes a restricted byway and cant be driven or riden on,people in some counties had 2/3 hundred miles of trails and the next day only 15/20 miles of trails (if they were lucky !!!) The trails network use to have almost a "natural" order to it,the trails flowed and lead somewhere and you could link several up for a good trip. Now many are short dead ends
Many restricted byways now see little foot traffic as without the vehicle traffic they have become overgrown very quickly
just think how you would feel as a car driver or walker or horse rider if you woke up in the morning and you couldnt use 90% of the roads/footpaths or bridal ways ?
funniest thing is the people who are most anti off roading are the ramblers-an organisation that was created via mass protest and tresspass !
crusty said:
Just to update this thread with some reality
For all the people on here b
hing and moaning about illegal riding and that they should go somewhere else, it's not our problem blah blah...
I was due to ride the Witley Classic Enduro this weekend along with the other 200 riders who entered and paid for the event - just received the following email
Witley MCC regrets to inform you that we have today been advised that Nature England has applied pressure on the Warren Heath land owner to withdraw, without obvious explanation, the land forcing us to cancel the Witley Classic. We are terribly sorry and hope that this Witley Classic will live again.
Anyone want to have another guess at why people ride illegally???????
I think they mean Natural England (successor body to English Nature and Countryside Agency) which is a NDPB (quango). As far as I know the landowner at Warren Heath is the Forestry Commission which is a non-ministerial government department. The latter is not normally obstructive to motor sport events for which it has granted permisssion and been paid for (the Rally GB WRC event would be impossible without their co-operation).For all the people on here b
hing and moaning about illegal riding and that they should go somewhere else, it's not our problem blah blah...I was due to ride the Witley Classic Enduro this weekend along with the other 200 riders who entered and paid for the event - just received the following email
Witley MCC regrets to inform you that we have today been advised that Nature England has applied pressure on the Warren Heath land owner to withdraw, without obvious explanation, the land forcing us to cancel the Witley Classic. We are terribly sorry and hope that this Witley Classic will live again.
Anyone want to have another guess at why people ride illegally???????
The cancellation at less than one week's notice is highly unusual. I would be very interested in how and why this came about. There must be a very compelling reason. Would this be covered by a FOI enquiry?
crusty said:
Just to update this thread with some reality
For all the people on here bhing and moaning about illegal riding and that they should go somewhere else, it's not our problem blah blah...
I was due to ride the Witley Classic Enduro this weekend along with the other 200 riders who entered and paid for the event - just received the following email
Witley MCC regrets to inform you that we have today been advised that Nature England has applied pressure on the Warren Heath land owner to withdraw, without obvious explanation, the land forcing us to cancel the Witley Classic. We are terribly sorry and hope that this Witley Classic will live again.
Anyone want to have another guess at why people ride illegally???????
Has mud clogged yer brain?For all the people on here b
hing and moaning about illegal riding and that they should go somewhere else, it's not our problem blah blah...I was due to ride the Witley Classic Enduro this weekend along with the other 200 riders who entered and paid for the event - just received the following email
Witley MCC regrets to inform you that we have today been advised that Nature England has applied pressure on the Warren Heath land owner to withdraw, without obvious explanation, the land forcing us to cancel the Witley Classic. We are terribly sorry and hope that this Witley Classic will live again.
Anyone want to have another guess at why people ride illegally???????
Cos you can't do something legally doesn't mean you have the right to carry on doing it illegally.
I'd like to travel in my car everywhere at 100 mph but I can't because it's illegal.
If I want to spend time in a car at 100 mph I have to travel to a race track where I can legally travel at speed. And if my nearest track closed down I'd have to find another, and if that one closed down I'd have to find another.
And if my nearest tracks closed down so that I didn't have same opportunity to travel at speed it wouldn't make me feel like I should have the god given right to put my foot down and go past schools or through villages at 100 mph just because 'there's no-where else'.
Jesus it ain't rocket science!
Squiggs said:
Has mud clogged yer brain?
Cos you can't do something legally doesn't mean you have the right to carry on doing it illegally.
I'd like to travel in my car everywhere at 100 mph but I can't because it's illegal.
If I want to spend time in a car at 100 mph I have to travel to a race track where I can legally travel at speed. And if my nearest track closed down I'd have to find another, and if that one closed down I'd have to find another.
And if my nearest tracks closed down so that I didn't have same opportunity to travel at speed it wouldn't make me feel like I should have the god given right to put my foot down and go past schools or through villages at 100 mph just because 'there's no-where else'.
Jesus it ain't rocket science!
Correct, it isn't. Cos you can't do something legally doesn't mean you have the right to carry on doing it illegally.
I'd like to travel in my car everywhere at 100 mph but I can't because it's illegal.
If I want to spend time in a car at 100 mph I have to travel to a race track where I can legally travel at speed. And if my nearest track closed down I'd have to find another, and if that one closed down I'd have to find another.
And if my nearest tracks closed down so that I didn't have same opportunity to travel at speed it wouldn't make me feel like I should have the god given right to put my foot down and go past schools or through villages at 100 mph just because 'there's no-where else'.
Jesus it ain't rocket science!
Nor is the total lack of any suggestion that people have the "right" to carry on doing something illegally, merely that greater and greater restrictons may nudge them towards illicit activity, and overlook the entire Rights issue on the basis they've got none left to take away any more.
But you carry on Petal.
Squiggs said:
Has mud clogged yer brain?
Cos you can't do something legally doesn't mean you have the right to carry on doing it illegally.
I'd like to travel in my car everywhere at 100 mph but I can't because it's illegal.
If I want to spend time in a car at 100 mph I have to travel to a race track where I can legally travel at speed. And if my nearest track closed down I'd have to find another, and if that one closed down I'd have to find another.
And if my nearest tracks closed down so that I didn't have same opportunity to travel at speed it wouldn't make me feel like I should have the god given right to put my foot down and go past schools or through villages at 100 mph just because 'there's no-where else'.
Jesus it ain't rocket science!
Serious question, if you want to ride or drive off road in the UK and all your options are being shut down, what do you do?Cos you can't do something legally doesn't mean you have the right to carry on doing it illegally.
I'd like to travel in my car everywhere at 100 mph but I can't because it's illegal.
If I want to spend time in a car at 100 mph I have to travel to a race track where I can legally travel at speed. And if my nearest track closed down I'd have to find another, and if that one closed down I'd have to find another.
And if my nearest tracks closed down so that I didn't have same opportunity to travel at speed it wouldn't make me feel like I should have the god given right to put my foot down and go past schools or through villages at 100 mph just because 'there's no-where else'.
Jesus it ain't rocket science!
crusty said:
Serious question, if you want to ride or drive off road in the UK and all your options are being shut down, what do you do?
Serious answer - you campaign for legal options. If that fails, then you stop. Or you break the law and risk prosecution.For an example of the above - hunting.
Caulkhead said:
Efbe said:
Caulkhead said:
Time for a reasoned view on this thread.
I've been off-roading and green-laning since the eighties and I also count as a land owner and I've seen what's happened over the past thirty years.
When I started laning it was very much a minority interest. Small groups of two or three largely standard Series motors or Suzukis would go and drive a few local lanes they had identified as having vehicular rights by visiting the definitive map at the local council offices. There would be no real mods to the vehicles save maybe a set of 750x16 SATs and one of us carrying a hi-lift jack. Most of the people we met were friendly if a bit confused as to why we would want to drive muddy old lanes. Most laners were in the ARC or AWDC clubs and took part in repair parties to go and fix damaged lanes on Sundays and some of us got into working with PHAB to take physically handicapped kids out for off-road rides.
Then it changed - the people laning were no longer slightly nerdy types in standard vehicles, they were louder, they were lifted, they had 35" tyres and lockers. The GLASS rules about treading lightly, never exceeding 20mph and never driving a lane that may be damaged were not just ignored, they were simply not known about or cared about by most. They would never even consider taking out a Sunday to go and repair damaged lanes. When faced with an old green Series III pottering along a lane, most ramblers and riders are entirely unconcerned, especially if you pulled over for them or offered them a cuppa from your volcano kettle. What turns them against laning is being confronted by a lifted shogun on big tyres trying to use revs and momentum to clear a ditch as they try to walk or ride by. Anyone who can't tell the difference between a pay and play day and a green lane shouldn't be laning.
So for me that's the basis of it - laning has become anti-social because laners have become anti-social. There were always nimbys but they had little ammo when laning was subtle and laners gave back at least as much as they took. Now most people see laners as nothing more than yobs who don't give a toss about the environment and given your average contemporary laner, I can't blame them.
agreed.I've been off-roading and green-laning since the eighties and I also count as a land owner and I've seen what's happened over the past thirty years.
When I started laning it was very much a minority interest. Small groups of two or three largely standard Series motors or Suzukis would go and drive a few local lanes they had identified as having vehicular rights by visiting the definitive map at the local council offices. There would be no real mods to the vehicles save maybe a set of 750x16 SATs and one of us carrying a hi-lift jack. Most of the people we met were friendly if a bit confused as to why we would want to drive muddy old lanes. Most laners were in the ARC or AWDC clubs and took part in repair parties to go and fix damaged lanes on Sundays and some of us got into working with PHAB to take physically handicapped kids out for off-road rides.
Then it changed - the people laning were no longer slightly nerdy types in standard vehicles, they were louder, they were lifted, they had 35" tyres and lockers. The GLASS rules about treading lightly, never exceeding 20mph and never driving a lane that may be damaged were not just ignored, they were simply not known about or cared about by most. They would never even consider taking out a Sunday to go and repair damaged lanes. When faced with an old green Series III pottering along a lane, most ramblers and riders are entirely unconcerned, especially if you pulled over for them or offered them a cuppa from your volcano kettle. What turns them against laning is being confronted by a lifted shogun on big tyres trying to use revs and momentum to clear a ditch as they try to walk or ride by. Anyone who can't tell the difference between a pay and play day and a green lane shouldn't be laning.
So for me that's the basis of it - laning has become anti-social because laners have become anti-social. There were always nimbys but they had little ammo when laning was subtle and laners gave back at least as much as they took. Now most people see laners as nothing more than yobs who don't give a toss about the environment and given your average contemporary laner, I can't blame them.
but what I am also seeing is small quarries that have been disused for decades, miles from anywhere being closed off so 4x4s have no-where left to go.
The famous one near to where I live, that I'm sure a few people on here will know is flappets:
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=hx2+6bj&hl=en&...
http://www.youtube.com/results?hl=en&q=flappet...
it has been used for absolutely ages, and was the single place everyone around this area went to to offroad.
So the council closed it down.
And what do they expect to happen, people just to sell their offroaders they have spent years working on and playing with?
And this is what I was trying to explain earlier. Without an alternative it will not stop. If you block off the places people can go, then they will move and probably cause more disruption.
We do not have a right to an alternative. We have a responsibility to not abuse what we have. As long as people green lane like it's a competitive motorsport it will become more and more hated and more TRO's will be applied and more lanes re-classified. When this happens and there are no lanes left, those who mistakenly think they have a right to off-road without caring about their responsibilities will find themselves left with just pay and play days and they will blame the nimbys instead of taking responsibility for the loss of legal green lanes on their own actions.
I'm not saying we have a right to an alternative. But if you do get rid of somehwere like this, you shouldn't be suprised when the same people go looking for somewhere else!
crusty said:
Smiler. said:
crusty said:
Anyone want to have another guess at why people ride illegally???????
Because they are morons??I think one of us is on the wrong forum (clue - it isn't me)
crusty said:
Serious question, if you want to ride or drive off road in the UK and all your options are being shut down, what do you do?
Serious answer.If the options of legally being allowed to do something are being shut down then you have to stop doing it - pure and simple!
(Unless you're an anarchist - then you can use it as a oppotunity to riot
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