Speeding: 42 in a 30 on a test drive
Discussion
(for those who know the area)
The van was parked on the central reservation up nearer to the round about to Manor Royal (opposite end to the fly over roundabout). It was not there when I first turned up in my car to the dealership, but was there when we first went out with the salesman driving (I noticed it).
When the salesman returned to the dealership from him driving (at 12:58) he went fast enough around the roundabout at the flyover to get the tyres screeching.**IT WAS AT 12:58 THE CAMERA CAUGHT US**
At 13:01 i took the car out, down the M23 and back. I knew the van was there and am almost certain I was not speeding when leaving or returning from the dealership.
I have completed the reverse of the NIP, provided the salesman details, attached a copy of his business card, printed a copy of Google location to show the route I went and at what time and wrote a letter to explain my case. I have taken a photocopy of all documents.
If it comes to it, all merc will have to do is view the CCTV from outside of their dealership, it will show the salesman pulling up at 12:58 (again...the time the camera caught us) and me then driving at 13:01
Not sure there is much more I can do...
The van was parked on the central reservation up nearer to the round about to Manor Royal (opposite end to the fly over roundabout). It was not there when I first turned up in my car to the dealership, but was there when we first went out with the salesman driving (I noticed it).
When the salesman returned to the dealership from him driving (at 12:58) he went fast enough around the roundabout at the flyover to get the tyres screeching.**IT WAS AT 12:58 THE CAMERA CAUGHT US**
At 13:01 i took the car out, down the M23 and back. I knew the van was there and am almost certain I was not speeding when leaving or returning from the dealership.
I have completed the reverse of the NIP, provided the salesman details, attached a copy of his business card, printed a copy of Google location to show the route I went and at what time and wrote a letter to explain my case. I have taken a photocopy of all documents.
If it comes to it, all merc will have to do is view the CCTV from outside of their dealership, it will show the salesman pulling up at 12:58 (again...the time the camera caught us) and me then driving at 13:01
Not sure there is much more I can do...
Just sat wondering....
Will the dealership even bother to look into it at all or simply name me once again because I'm logged down as a test drive during that time.
I wasn't going to bother to call them, however I'm thinking it might be worth it and just explain I've looked into it and the camera appears to have caught the salesman upon returning to the dealer
They might then actually pay more attention to it and see what happened. Avoids playing ping pong with the NIP then (not sure how many times it goes back and forth?)
Will the dealership even bother to look into it at all or simply name me once again because I'm logged down as a test drive during that time.
I wasn't going to bother to call them, however I'm thinking it might be worth it and just explain I've looked into it and the camera appears to have caught the salesman upon returning to the dealer
They might then actually pay more attention to it and see what happened. Avoids playing ping pong with the NIP then (not sure how many times it goes back and forth?)
1Addicted said:
For what it's worth, I've always found this dealer to be quite amicable when it comes to their f-ups. Sure, the salesman is never going to willingly hold his hands up and take the points, fine and a potential telling off from his boss given the choice and, it would appear that to some degree his employer is backing him but, you have some evidence to the contrary. To save face at least and to protect their reputation, they may just accept your retaliation but it would always go down best if you could amicably explain your stand point to the DP before hand, therefore you have nothing to lose by calling.
The entrance to the dealer is on a separate slip road, starting at the roundabout and divided from joining the main portion of the slip road joining Gatwick Road by railings. The slip road travels up hill to join Gatwick Road and therefore the camera must have been pointing at this waiting for cars to rise into view. As the car was clocked at 12:58pm, the same time that the salesman pulled up, then the camera must have been pointing through the railings to catch you in the first place, which I wasn't aware that it could accurately do.
From what I recall it was parked up on this section. Whether it can just about see the top of the car or all of it I don't know, but with the railings in the way and at such a distance I can't imagine any front on pictures will be clear.The entrance to the dealer is on a separate slip road, starting at the roundabout and divided from joining the main portion of the slip road joining Gatwick Road by railings. The slip road travels up hill to join Gatwick Road and therefore the camera must have been pointing at this waiting for cars to rise into view. As the car was clocked at 12:58pm, the same time that the salesman pulled up, then the camera must have been pointing through the railings to catch you in the first place, which I wasn't aware that it could accurately do.
I've not called them so far as I've done my part so thought it was best to leave to the Police and see where it goes next. However I'd imagine the dealer will just name me again and so back to square one...
Have done a view from the roundabout which was exited. Might be a tight shot but as there was no other car near us, the camera could have had a clear path near enough to the round about?
Now he was going fast enough to get the tyres squeeling, which lets be honest, isn't going to happen at 30 or under miles per hour....
Rear view of the car position. Wide round about, decent amount of 'run up' before getting to the slip road to build up speed.
Front view from car position. With very few other cars about (there weren't any in front of us) then the camera looks to have a clear shot of the slip road too?
Now he was going fast enough to get the tyres squeeling, which lets be honest, isn't going to happen at 30 or under miles per hour....
Rear view of the car position. Wide round about, decent amount of 'run up' before getting to the slip road to build up speed.
Front view from car position. With very few other cars about (there weren't any in front of us) then the camera looks to have a clear shot of the slip road too?
1Addicted said:
It looks like some superb marksmanship from the camera operator, the Bstard!
Yep and also notice in the screen shot where the 30MPH sign is (round about i believe is a 40MPH limit). The car must have just crossed past the sign as the camera beam struck him 
would certainly be interesting to see a picture!btcc123 said:
I would not speak to the dealer at this stage and guess when they received the NIP they asked the salesman and he just said it was you without any investigation.Keep them in the dark about your investigations into the incident so they will forget most of what happened and be less prepared than you.
You seam quite clued up with you times,text on your phone,where the camera van was etc.
Either the police send you the photo and if its you hold your hands up.If its the salesman
If its not you and difficult to see who is driving then the case may be dropped but if you have to go to court who will the magistrates believe you with all your evidence or the salesman just saying you book a test drive between X and Y.
Good luck if you have been truthful on this thread I am sure you will be ok.Good luck.
That's a very good point you make...I'll avoid them You seam quite clued up with you times,text on your phone,where the camera van was etc.
Either the police send you the photo and if its you hold your hands up.If its the salesman
If its not you and difficult to see who is driving then the case may be dropped but if you have to go to court who will the magistrates believe you with all your evidence or the salesman just saying you book a test drive between X and Y.
Good luck if you have been truthful on this thread I am sure you will be ok.Good luck.
If....IF after some investigation it turns out to be me I would straight away hold my hands up, apologise and take the consequence. But because of the facts I have etc I'm wanting to defend and not take someone else's punishment. All I've said in the thread so far is truthful and is exactly what would be said if anyone else was to ask.
I guess now I just have to wait...see what happens. If the next step is they charge the salesman or drop it all (so avoiding court etc etc) I wonder if they will notify me just so I am aware it has all been settled
hornetrider said:
Hang on a tick op. You said in your opening post that the dealer was first in the car then you drove it back.
But now you've figured out the locations of the van etc you say the salesman was driving as you returned to the dealership...
Yes the dealer went in the car first, took it all around the area and then returned up the slip road the camera van was facing. Then 3 minutes later i took the car out, up the M23 and returned up the same slip road. Difference being, A) I didn't come around and exit the round about with tyres screeching... B) the time I return is 17 minutes after the camera caught the carSteveoox said:
The sales man drove the car to start with, spanked it from the get go around the area until I got in the car. I started of with ease while getting used to a car I'm not familiar with so unlikely it was me speeding when leaving the dealer, then the route was A23, M23 and back.
There is a chance it could have been me when returning to the dealer but I'm thinking again unlikely as it's just off a round about and the camera was down the other end of the road (and i was aware it was there anyway).
There is a chance it could have been me when returning to the dealer but I'm thinking again unlikely as it's just off a round about and the camera was down the other end of the road (and i was aware it was there anyway).
But now you've figured out the locations of the van etc you say the salesman was driving as you returned to the dealership...
Stevoox said:
I wasn't going to bother to call them, however I'm thinking it might be worth it and just explain I've looked into it and the camera appears to have caught the salesman upon returning to the dealer
He returned up the slip road after exiting the roundabout at speed, at 12:58
I returned up the slip road at 13:15.
The camera caught the car at 12:58 - that is three minutes before I was even in the drivers seat.
I can see the routes and times on google location
Edited by Stevoox on Thursday 12th March 19:32
Edited by Stevoox on Thursday 12th March 19:32
Macadoodle said:
Stevoox - you obviously know this area well. Are there any other CCTV cameras in the area (particularly council owned ones)? Under data protection laws you are entitled to view footage from any camera you have been captured on. If there are other cameras in this area, they may be able to prove your innocence. It can be a bit of a faff to get the footage, but it might be your saviour of the image from the speed camera is inconclusive.
I was involved in an accident and used footage from a council owned camera to try and put my case across to the insurance company. In my case it made no difference to the outcome, but I was able to get the footage I needed.
To be honest I don't actually know the area well, I just know the main road from the motorway to the dealership and back I was involved in an accident and used footage from a council owned camera to try and put my case across to the insurance company. In my case it made no difference to the outcome, but I was able to get the footage I needed.
but it's a good point you make.I'll have to see what happens, if it goes down to the camera van photo then we will see. If that doesn't help, then the dealer would surely have CCTV which would identify who gets it the car and at what time. Which according to my google location is the salesman driving at the exact time and in the exact area where the camera man would have clocked the car.
I drive the car from 13:01 to 13:15 which is shown by the route on timestamps.
speedking31 said:
I don't see how your own phone tracker is of much use as it doesn't prove who was driving 
He did a route around the area, i did one down the M23.The times show where the car was being driven. It therefore appears he was caught upon returning to the dealer.
But in a sense, you a right because there isn't a picture or who was driving. Its more proof for me / peace of mind I know I wasn't driving i guess.
But still...I've presented all of the to the police which is more than Mercedes will be able to do.
Edited by Stevoox on Friday 13th March 00:18
Edited by Stevoox on Friday 13th March 00:19
jith said:
So anyway Steve, did you buy the Merc?
J
No James J
- He text me yesterday asking for an update but I've not replied. decided not to anyway. Alot more money (42K) on a car with similar performance to my current one...but it also just didn't feel as special to driveEdited by Stevoox on Friday 13th March 00:38
Thought I would quickly update everyone...
Last week I phoned the police just to get an update on where things were at and it appeared they had not yet done anything. I asked about photo evidence to which she advised it was useless as it only shows the number plate, nothing else.
They have since sent the NIP to mercedes who have again returned it nominating me as the driver and attached the test drive form that I signed. They also state that the letter I sent them does not prove I was not driving the car at the exact time of the camera catching us...
but neither does a test drive form....
Anyway - the time on the test drive form is 12:30, not exactly accurate when we continued talking after signing it, then he had a nose at my car, then we went out in my car briefly before driving the merc.
So we are still at square 1 where the driver cannot be proved 100%.
I'll have to call Sussex police (again) tomorrow.
Last week I phoned the police just to get an update on where things were at and it appeared they had not yet done anything. I asked about photo evidence to which she advised it was useless as it only shows the number plate, nothing else.
They have since sent the NIP to mercedes who have again returned it nominating me as the driver and attached the test drive form that I signed. They also state that the letter I sent them does not prove I was not driving the car at the exact time of the camera catching us...
but neither does a test drive form....
Anyway - the time on the test drive form is 12:30, not exactly accurate when we continued talking after signing it, then he had a nose at my car, then we went out in my car briefly before driving the merc.
So we are still at square 1 where the driver cannot be proved 100%.
I'll have to call Sussex police (again) tomorrow.
agtlaw said:
You are not the keeper - therefore not required to exercise due diligence.
You are "any other person". You're required to "give any information which it is in his power to give and may lead to identification of the driver." If you've done that then your obligation is fulfilled.
If I've understood correctly then three s. 172 requests were sent;
1. To the dealership (RK). You are nominated.
2. To you. You nominated the salesman.
3. To the salesman. He nominates you.
Put everythhing in writing / email. A phone call should be immediately followed up with an email setting out a summary of the discussion.
If you're prosecuted for speeding then the prosecution is required to prove that you were the driver. It's not for you to prove your innocence.
If you're prosecuted for failing to identify the driver then the prosecution must prove failure to comply with the s. 172 requirement (see above).
Personally, I can't see this case getting off the ground.
Yes, you are correct.You are "any other person". You're required to "give any information which it is in his power to give and may lead to identification of the driver." If you've done that then your obligation is fulfilled.
If I've understood correctly then three s. 172 requests were sent;
1. To the dealership (RK). You are nominated.
2. To you. You nominated the salesman.
3. To the salesman. He nominates you.
Put everythhing in writing / email. A phone call should be immediately followed up with an email setting out a summary of the discussion.
If you're prosecuted for speeding then the prosecution is required to prove that you were the driver. It's not for you to prove your innocence.
If you're prosecuted for failing to identify the driver then the prosecution must prove failure to comply with the s. 172 requirement (see above).
Personally, I can't see this case getting off the ground.
1st NIP was sent to MB who then nominated me
2nd NIP was sent to me and I then nominated the salesman at MB.
3rd NIP was sent to MB who have again nominated me but also provided a copy of the sign test drive form
I have spoken with Sussex police again today to raise my points. I have again taken photo copies of everything, filled out the reverse of the NIP naming the salesman and sent a second letter to say:
"Dear Sussex Safer roads team,
Signing the test drive form does not prove who was driving at the time of the offence, it merely states that at some point the nominated individual drove the car. The vehicle is signed out at 12:30, at which time we continued to speak, the salesman then had a look at my car, we then drove my car briefly before the A45 AMG – so instantly an out time of 12:30 is incorrect.
As per the Google location tracking I can see the route around the area of Gatwick road was taken from 12:41 onwards, at which time the salesman was driving. It is a standard procedure in the motor trade for the dealership to first drive the car, make sure all is in working order, the car has sufficient fuel and talk about the car with the customer.
We then stopped, switched drivers and my route consisted of the M23 (which according to Google location tracking appears to be from 13:01 to 13:15. The 13:15 time also the correlates with the ‘time in’ on the test drive form which is when I had returned to the area/dealership – 17 minutes after the car was caught.
I have therefore once again nominated the salesman (Barry Walker) as the named driver, as he drove the car around the area of the dealership at that time.
Edited by Stevoox on Wednesday 25th March 16:27
POORCARDEALER said:
Stevoox said:
Fastra said:
Depends on whether he's attended a course in the last 3 years, if he has then its points.
No points, completely clean licence Will hopefully hear more this week as I am waiting for a call from Sussex Police about the situation
I returned the NIP again naming Merc so she (girl from Sussex Police) said it will now all be assessed by senior people and she will call me with an update this week.
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