How about British law - can the Dutch way work?
Discussion
It is slightly different if you had your licence with you at the time and produced it to the officer, you would then be acepting the FPN if you gave it to him (ie surrendered it) if you did not give it to him then you would be technically declining to be dealt with by way of the FPN. So if you want time to think about it then don't produce the licence at the time. Just to clarify you can certainly take the FPN at the time then elect for a court hearing, you still have to produce your licence down at the nick in seven days, you just don't surrender it. Surrendering it just means handing it over to the police so it can be passed on to the Ticket office for points to be added
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Just a poinr in reference to being sat in the back of a cop car and having to make a choice whether or not to acept an FPN. Even a few of my colleagues get this wrong. The choice of whether or not to issue an FPN is down to the officer, the other options being advice or report for summons. I personally always go for FPN rather than summons (I still do advise some drivers) even if they are saying they will "take it all the way" , "Get the best solicitor they can" etc. this is because the FPN still has the option for the offender to plead 'not guilty'. I work on the principal that a most people that 'gob off' at getting a ticket usually calm down later and plead guilty at court/pay the ticket. Once you have reported an offender for summons they have only one choice, court and that means me writting out a summons report. The other problem with court in respect of the offender is the costs that the end up paying. In answer to the original thread there is nothing stopping anyone writting in to the police asking to be 'let off' a ticket, it does happen a quite often, and on occasion it does work, usually on the non-endorsable tickets though. The problem with the endorsable ones is that you only have seven days to produce your licence and at that time you have to make the choice as to whether you surrender the licence and accept the FPN or keep the licence and go for a court hearing. I think that if everyone decided to write in they would just start sending out pro-forma letters advising you to take it to court if you think you should be let off. Now if everyone did that it would cause problems, eventually.
i dont
I do it then tell the magistrats to put the find where the sun dont shind
and do the days it cheaper
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But they did and he was found guilty and fined £700quote:
an over simplification i believe... as i understood this case, the fine was for not having sufficient internal controls in place to log which plod was out speeding (sorry driving!) in the unmarked car?
but this is not the only such case... how about the durham constable, adrian ???, who "couldn't remember" who was driving. he avoided any fine & if there were any internal reprimands they were not made public.
... & for more edifying tales of "the nation's finest" being economical with the truth (or just plain thick?) check out the ABD's website!
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Yes it does conflict with the treaty but our government don't worry about that (even though it was they who adopted the treaty here) in motoring offences the owner of the vehicle is told to say who was driving and if they don't then they are prosecuted for not saying (unless of course he is a Police officer!)
But they did and he was found guilty and fined £700
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Interestingly "serious" criminals (murderers, paedophiles, rapists etc) can use the right "not to incriminate them self" and need to be proven guilty beyond "reasonable doubt" what does that tell you about UK justice?
You really should learn a little about the system before making generalisations like this.
The system is weighted heavily on the side of the offender, regardless of the offence. Any reasonable doubt thrown on a case will see it dismissed
Do any of you remember the programme 'Karachi Cops'
Where the Superintendent of Police examined the hands of a suspect involved with a theft from a shop.
He took the suspects hands in his, examined them and then stated " You have the hands of a thief..."
suspect found guilty.
Great system that one. It would really work well for the safety Cameras!
" You are the driver of a car. Let me see you drive. You have the drive of a speeder"
GUILTY
>> Edited by madcop on Friday 21st June 00:11
bollocks is it most magistraits would belive a cop if he told em the sky was pink with puple spots pull the other one its got bells on
you know how things work m8
>> Edited by outlaw on Friday 21st June 21:27
quote:
It is slightly different if you had your licence with you at the time and produced it to the officer, you would then be acepting the FPN if you gave it to him (ie surrendered it) if you did not give it to him then you would be technically declining to be dealt with by way of the FPN. So if you want time to think about it then don't produce the licence at the time. Just to clarify you can certainly take the FPN at the time then elect for a court hearing, you still have to produce your licence down at the nick in seven days, you just don't surrender it. Surrendering it just means handing it over to the police so it can be passed on to the Ticket office for points to be added
That providing you bother to get a licence the firt place
failing that 3 or 4 of em can come in handy
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quote:
and do the days it cheaper
No way I'd do time for the sake of forty quid.
its 60 now
you dont get it mate
for a stupit fine like that its a day or two
you do half of that if it comes up on a friday
easy to sort out
you get a lift to the local nick a cup of coffe and a ticket home the same day
as they cant let you out on weekend and if you there late letting you out you can sue
belive me it happens all the time. most of the time the magistraits dont even know this there selfs.
pluss it cost em loads to do it.
puts an end to there tax scam
anyway once you done a day or two you wont give a toss anymore anyway a there little jail treats mean nothing
if you take a piss all over the magistraits the twats can only give a few mouth anyway.
I would rather the schum pay that pay the scums tax
plus they got to find me first/
I move around alot
never payed a ticket.
>> Edited by outlaw on Saturday 22 June 22:21
quote:
You really should learn a little about the system before making generalisations like this.
The system is weighted heavily on the side of the offender, regardless of the offence. Any reasonable doubt thrown on a case will see it dismissed
I recall a few months back a senior Police officer who "could not remember who was driving his car" he got away with it!
Recently a Police car was snapped speeding and strangely no-one knew who was driving! - Granted, a fine was given (presumably the rate payers pay that also) but no points were issued!
I don't think Joe public is generally as "lucky" as this, I'm sure I can find many other examples of "lenient" treatment for Police officers, so I would, respectfully, suggest that you are in fact talking bo****ks.
quote:
You really should learn a little about the system before making generalisations like this.
The system is weighted heavily on the side of the offender, regardless of the offence. Any reasonable doubt thrown on a case will see it dismissed
I recall a few months back a senior Police officer who "could not remember who was driving his car" he got away with it!
Recently a Police car was snapped speeding and strangely no-one knew who was driving! - Granted, a fine was given (presumably the rate payers pay that also) but no points were issued!
I don't think Joe public is generally as "lucky" as this, I'm sure I can find many other examples of "lenient" treatment for Police officers, so I would, respectfully, suggest that you are in fact talking bo****ks.
Sorry cazzo,
Until you actually join up, do something that incurs the wrath of the proffessional standards department and some how understand the system and how it works then I am afraid it is you who are talking bollocks.
You would not understand the feeling of dread and helplessness when a reg 9 form is thrust into your hand by a detective Inspector that you know will do his/her utmost to nail you for the discipline as well as the court hearing if it is a court matter.
Proffessional Standards departments have performance targets to meet as well and will pursue you to the bitter end to meet them.
As myself and John Robson and other cops on PH state many times on this site. We do not agree with the actions of a few highly publicised cases where Police officers have tried it on.
many officers that fall foul of the laws they inforce take it on the chin. You do not here about them unless it is particularly newsworthy like theft on a large scale, rape, murder, drug dealing etc or if the News Of the World get hold of it any scandal involving private lives of officers if there is nothing more relevant to fill their pages.
I have colleagues that are prosecuted for driving offences when they get it wrong (RTAs are a cardinal sin and usually end up with a prosecution file to CPS)
when they are doing no more than answering urgent calls for assisstance from the public that so derides them.
You very rarely hear of these cases because they are not interesting. They do happen and more often than not receive guilty pleas because that is the way the majority of cops that I work with conduct themselves.
They not only put themselves at risk doing this but also their personal circumstances in that if the crash, they risk being summonsed regardless of the fact that they were driving under pressure, listening to two radio channels and dealing with 'numpties' that dont see/hear them and do everything in their power to make things awkward.
If you crash a Police Vehicle you have to inform your own private insurance company as it is a relevant accident for the purposes of risk assessment.
A crash in a Police vehicle whilst answering an emergency call from the public (you) can mean an increase in costs of personal insurance.
In my force, also incur an additional penalty of the same points system the courts use but on your Police driving permit. ( I received 3 points for hitting the radiator support on a rough farm track chasing a scrote, several years ago when the Police vehicle bottomed out on a rut, only superficial damage requiring a a small amount of welding and a new bolt).
Contrary to what you may actually think and beleive, Police officers do not receive special treatment from the CPS, Courts or the Police themselves. Experience (from others) shows quite the opposite.
Currently at the station I work from, a CID car has been photographed by a safety camera some weeks ago.
Not unusually, the vehicle log book wasn't completed for that day or many days previous ( Discipline offence in itself)
A letter was sent to everyone at the station requesting the driver own up and fill out an exemption form it they had a defence (driving to an emergency)
No one has owned up.
A letter has now been sent with a 'name the driver form' (NIP already issued to Police Authority so it is valid) to everybody at the station including all the civilian workers explaining that this is now a serious discipline matter and being investigated by a Detective Chief Inspector who is using every available technical resource at his disposal to identify the driver. This includes digital enhancement of the reflections in the door and interior rear view mirrors. They are even talking about criminal offences
Do you think such measures would be employed against 'the public'. I DONT THINK SO.
I understand peoples resentment to Police who do stupid things and get caught but they are in a minority.
All builders are not bad builders just because there are a few cowboys around!
So before making uninformed statements about Bollocks. Make sure you know what Bollocks you are talking about!!
>> Edited by madcop on Sunday 23 June 04:49
quote:
quote:
You really should learn a little about the system before making generalisations like this.
The system is weighted heavily on the side of the offender, regardless of the offence. Any reasonable doubt thrown on a case will see it dismissed
I recall a few months back a senior Police officer who "could not remember who was driving his car" he got away with it!
Recently a Police car was snapped speeding and strangely no-one knew who was driving! - Granted, a fine was given (presumably the rate payers pay that also) but no points were issued!
I don't think Joe public is generally as "lucky" as this, I'm sure I can find many other examples of "lenient" treatment for Police officers, so I would, respectfully, suggest that you are in fact talking bo****ks.
Sorry cazzo,
Until you actually join up, do something that incurs the wrath of the proffessional standards department and some how understand the system and how it works then I am afraid it is you who are talking bollocks.
You would not understand the feeling of dread and helplessness when a reg 9 form is thrust into your hand by a detective Inspector that you know will do his/her utmost to nail you for the discipline as well as the court hearing if it is a court matter.
Proffessional Standards departments have performance targets to meet as well and will pursue you to the bitter end to meet them.
As myself and John Robson and other cops on PH state many times on this site. We do not agree with the actions of a few highly publicised cases where Police officers have tried it on.
many officers that fall foul of the laws they inforce take it on the chin. You do not here about them unless it is particularly newsworthy like theft on a large scale, rape, murder, drug dealing etc or if the News Of the World get hold of it any scandal involving private lives of officers if there is nothing more relevant to fill their pages.
I have colleagues that are prosecuted for driving offences when they get it wrong (RTAs are a cardinal sin and usually end up with a prosecution file to CPS)
when they are doing no more than answering urgent calls for assisstance from the public that so derides them.
You very rarely hear of these cases because they are not interesting. They do happen and more often than not receive guilty pleas because that is the way the majority of cops that I work with conduct themselves.
They not only put themselves at risk doing this but also their personal circumstances in that if the crash, they risk being summonsed regardless of the fact that they were driving under pressure, listening to two radio channels and dealing with 'numpties' that dont see/hear them and do everything in their power to make things awkward.
If you crash a Police Vehicle you have to inform your own private insurance company as it is a relevant accident for the purposes of risk assessment.
A crash in a Police vehicle whilst answering an emergency call from the public (you) can mean an increase in costs of personal insurance.
In my force, also incur an additional penalty of the same points system the courts use but on your Police driving permit. ( I received 3 points for hitting the radiator support on a rough farm track chasing a scrote, several years ago when the Police vehicle bottomed out on a rut, only superficial damage requiring a a small amount of welding and a new bolt).
Contrary to what you may actually think and beleive, Police officers do not receive special treatment from the CPS, Courts or the Police themselves. Experience (from others) shows quite the opposite.
Currently at the station I work from, a CID car has been photographed by a safety camera some weeks ago.
Not unusually, the vehicle log book wasn't completed for that day or many days previous ( Discipline offence in itself)
A letter was sent to everyone at the station requesting the driver own up and fill out an exemption form it they had a defence (driving to an emergency)
No one has owned up.
A letter has now been sent with a 'name the driver form' (NIP already issued to Police Authority so it is valid) to everybody at the station including all the civilian workers explaining that this is now a serious discipline matter and being investigated by a Detective Chief Inspector who is using every available technical resource at his disposal to identify the driver. This includes digital enhancement of the reflections in the door and interior rear view mirrors. They are even talking about criminal offences
Do you think such measures would be employed against 'the public'. I DONT THINK SO.
I understand peoples resentment to Police who do stupid things and get caught but they are in a minority.
All builders are not bad builders just because there are a few cowboys around!
So before making uninformed statements about Bollocks. Make sure you know what Bollocks you are talking about!!
Ill bet they dont find the the driver. the reson we dont here of many cops in shit is because those at the top go to great pains to keep it out of the news.
Do you think such measures would be employed against 'the public' yes I do everyday and worse.
as for taking it easy on coper what about he one that do get done for a thing such as rape.
how many non nofficers would get quiatly shifted off too and open nick for a rape.
to name but one. so they dont get a good kick in a normal jail
>> Edited by madcop on Sunday 23 June 04:49
quote:
Until you actually join up, do something that incurs the wrath of the proffessional standards department and some how understand the system and how it works then I am afraid it is you who are talking bollocks.
I understand peoples resentment to Police who do stupid things and get caught but they are in a minority.
All builders are not bad builders just because there are a few cowboys around!
Firstly I have no intention of joining up, so I’ll have to live in ignorance but There are too many (and even one is too many) cases of Cops getting away with motoring offences, whilst we are persecuted, and not just the ones in the News-of-the-world but those that don’t make the press, I personally know of several cases in my locality so I really don't think what I'm saying is bo****ks.
Actually I would like to see less Police offenders being prosecuted, as high speeds per se are not necessarily dangerous and camera convictions are definitely “dodgy” but lets have the same rules/discretion for all, be they Jack Straw’s driver or “Joe public”.
I simply don’t believe that the system cracks down hard on all Police offenders, although I’m not arguing that there is such a system in place and I'm not at all surprised at how anal you describe it to be.
Until we have reasonable traffic laws with appropriate speed limits and APPROPRIATE sentencing ie where the penalties for motoring offences are not harsher than those for burglary or violent crime (no more jail for speeding!) along with “sensible” enforcement, not just following “Tony-the-phoneys” Politically correct party line then respect for the law will get less and less
Any Police being or appearing to be treated leniently will rub up the public the wrong way, this is only getting worse with each case of "looking-after-their-own" that appears in the tabloids.
Police doing stupid things may be in the minority but I suggest to you that motorists doing stupid things are also in the minority (and probably about the same proportion!) yet many of us suffer because of some over-zealous pratt in a uniform.
This is what is turning the public against the Police - I consider myself to be a law-abiding citizen, I have never robbed anyone etc and my only contact with the Police has been over minor motoring offences yet I feel that I have been treated like a scumbag, consequently I have lost the respect that I once had for the Police (Realise that I am one of many).
Your comparison of "cowboy" builders may be true, I'm sure that there are many decent Police officers, but unfortunately most of us only come into contact with the ar**holes who seem happy to follow a political agenda and if we employ a dodgy builder we have a choice of paying them or not.
Not all motorists are child-killing-spawn-of-the-devil (just because a few may be).
It is not my intention to slag off all Police, I respect the fact that you post on this site of your own free will (no doubt taking some sh1t!) but I hope you agree that we need a Police force with common sense, Police officers with their own views, prepared to use discretion where appropriate (like it was before Political correctness took hold) and not just do what the politicians decide is flavour of the month.
I for one would give my support to such a Police force.
Outlaw do us a favour and stop quoting everyone in your post
It takes me 1/2 hr to read then I just laugh anyway!
Good for the giggle though your laissez faire attitude?
As for prison instead of a £60 fine Id rather pay the fine than be bu****ed in the showers!
Ah? Its just dropped home! Each to their own!
>> Edited by gemini on Tuesday 25th June 23:25
It takes me 1/2 hr to read then I just laugh anyway!
Good for the giggle though your laissez faire attitude?
As for prison instead of a £60 fine Id rather pay the fine than be bu****ed in the showers!
Ah? Its just dropped home! Each to their own!
>> Edited by gemini on Tuesday 25th June 23:25
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