Mobile Phone Offence

[streaky]

See: In court on Wednesday, this should be fun! - Streaky

[Finlandia]

streaky said:

See: In court on Wednesday, this should be fun! - Streaky

Good for him to have common sense prevail, shocking to see what lengths the law enforcement goes to, and how the blind eye gets turned...

[forza whites]

Have looked at a lot of your posts VH on PH, and am now sure VH you would Ban anything to do with the motorist? That way additional revenue in the way of fines and crimes can be recorded to make you look like your benefiting the wider communities of our country.

For some reason though operating a Police radio (remember a mobile phone is a radio) whilst driving a Police car is perfectly acceptable!

The Met Police not so long ago took a considerable number of officers off 'traffic' duties and accordingly street crime fell by 24% and convictions up 13%.

vonhosen said:

p1esk said:

vonhosen said:

Finlandia said:

SS2. said:

Finlandia said:

What is the difference in using a PTT compared to a mobile?

Simplex vs duplex communication..?

The exemption for two way radios was created because of the large number of government and private organisations which use (and rely on) such equipment..

But how can it be? I mean surely it must be just as dangerous to talk on a walkie-talkie as it is on a mobile? What about mobiles that can be used as PTT's as well, I believe Nokia has a few models that can do this?

Apparently there is a difference between PTT & phone conversations with the coding decoding within the brain & the resultant distraction.

It might be interesting to hear the basis for such a claim, meanwhile I have to admit to a degree of scepticism. At the moment I'm finding it hard to see how a conversation using a hand-held mobile phone is any more damaging to a driver's ability to drive safely than is a conversation using a PTT or other form of radio. Was there also a story about one category of equipment - like radio - being OK to use because it used a certain frequency band, and another category - mobile phones - not being OK because it used a different frequency band? In that case, why the distinction between hand-held and hands-free? Surely they both operate in the same frequency range?

Best wishes all,
Dave.

I can't find the link to it at the moment but it went along the lines of how there is effectively a constantly open connection in the brain (if you like) in phone use, that isn't there with press to talk. It also went on about depth of concentration that occurs in phone conversations & where users visualise who they are speaking to & where the conversation is going. Press to talk conversations were far more detached & broken resulting in less concentration being expended on them.

As for hands free v hand held, I've said before I'd ban both if I was going to ban one personally.

[caiss4]

Finlandia said:

vonhosen said:

I'd ban both if I was going to ban one personally.

Exactly, the ban needs to cover both PTT devices and mobile phones, finally a law enforcerer with common sense. I hope this was what you meant?

As for banning one but not the other, silly. As for one being more dangerous than the other, silly.
Both conversations are held towards a plastic box, both conversations requires you to hold the device in one hand (leaving only one hand on the steeringwheel), both conversations require you to concentrate on the dialogue (the PTT even more so, since you need to press a button while talking).

I think as already stated the exemption for PTT was made for emergency services use on the basis that even if you take into account commercial private mobile radio (PMR) users there are very much smaller number of users than mobile phones. I agree that if the safety issue is that one hand is used to hold the device then PTT really should not be exempt. I think the brain processing arguments are tenuous but as having been a user of PTT there is no question that the experience is different by virtue of the fact that both parties can not talk at the same time - whether this reduces the impact on brain processing is debatable.

Finlandia said:

As for the MHz band, if mobile phones suddenly started using another band, would they be legal again then? What if we started using satellite phones or NMT, which uses different bands, all legal then? Or will the law just be slightly changed again to keep the revenue flow?

The PTT over cellular (PoC) service uses the mobile networks' GPRS packet data network. This type of service is very popular in the US but has never really caught on in Europe. Ultimately commercial issues drive the availability of such services and as already stated all the mobile telephone bands are already excluded from 'PTT' exemption even though they can support such a service. If the NMT band was refarmed for mobile use then it would just be added to the exemption list as would any other licensed frequency for mobile telephony.

Of course the final twist is that the emergency services TETRA radios can act as mobile telephones as well so when observing someone using such a device it would not be obvious whether it was being used for PTT or a mobile phone call......

Edited by caiss4 on Thursday 24th April 11:48

[p1esk]

Finlandia said:

vonhosen said:

Finlandia said:

SS2. said:

Finlandia said:

What is the difference in using a PTT compared to a mobile?

Simplex vs duplex communication..?

The exemption for two way radios was created because of the large number of government and private organisations which use (and rely on) such equipment..

But how can it be? I mean surely it must be just as dangerous to talk on a walkie-talkie as it is on a mobile? What about mobiles that can be used as PTT's as well, I believe Nokia has a few models that can do this?

Apparently there is a difference between PTT & phone conversations with the coding decoding within the brain & the resultant distraction.

How can there be any difference to a conversation you are having with a plastic box, be it holding it to your ear or holding it before your mouth?
It still takes one hand from the steeringwheel, it still demands your attention, and the person on the line can not know what traffic situation you are in and can thus not shut up when needs to, as a passenger in your car can.

Yes, passengers do have the opportunity to see busy traffic situations developing, and it may occur to them to stop talking until things become a bit easier for the driver, but in my experience the vast majority go rabbitting on regardless, so I wouldn't place too much reliance on that.

With regard to a mobile phone conversation, I would only get involved with that if the driving task were relatively undemanding at the time, and looked likely to remain so. If I'm part way through a conversation and things get a bit busy, I simply have to take time off from the chatting until things get easier, or terminate the call and re-establish contact later.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

Edited by p1esk on Thursday 24th April 16:36

[The Excession]

vonhosen said:

I can't find the link to it at the moment but it went along the lines of how there is effectively a constantly open connection in the brain (if you like) in phone use, that isn't there with press to talk. It also went on about depth of concentration that occurs in phone conversations & where users visualise who they are speaking to & where the conversation is going. Press to talk conversations were far more detached & broken resulting in less concentration being expended on them.

As for hands free v hand held, I've said before I'd ban both if I was going to ban one personally.

I'm with von on this one. I've used PTT extensively and found it ok with little detriment to my concentration whilst driving. I've always hated having a mobile phone on in the car.

My reasoning is that PTT is invariably used in a commercial environment, and by it's very nature (shared & open channel) the conversations are usually very short and directly related to the task in hand.

Conversely a mobile phone is invariably used for ad-hoc conversations, often not pertaining to the task in hand. You know, the Mrs phoning you up asking you to get a,b,c,d,e,f,g,h,... x,y & z from the super-market on the way home.

I know that many people are capable of holding a free form conversation whilst driving, and even more people are capable of holding a 10 second conversation along the lines of "What time are you arriving?", "The traffic is bad I'll be 15 minutes late", "OK see you then", "Bye".

But the majority of drivers cannot manage long drawn out conversations on a mobile whilst driving, and I applaud the ban, and as with von, I question the use of hands free kits too.

best
Ex

[The Excession]

Jules360 said:

I suppose the next step is to ban the driver from speaking to any passengers?

Come off it, in my opinion that's just a silly and very poor point to make.

The biggest difference is that a passenger in the car with you can see when your attention needs to be diverted to the road ahead. A person on the end of a phone cannot, and so will continue to natter into your ear when your attention should be directed elsewhere.

[The Excession]

Finlandia said:

vonhosen said:

I'd ban both if I was going to ban one personally.

Exactly, the ban needs to cover both PTT devices and mobile phones, finally a law enforcerer with common sense. I hope this was what you meant?

I think von meant, ban mobiles and hands-free, but keep the PTT - as said above PTT is a completely different kettle of brain game to using a duplex device like a mobile-phone.

[p1esk]

The Excession said:

Jules360 said:

I suppose the next step is to ban the driver from speaking to any passengers?

Come off it, in my opinion that's just a silly and very poor point to make.

I wouldn't be too sure of that. IIRC the idea of banning drivers from talking to passengers has already been suggested by BRAKE (admittedly a rather barmy organisation) so although it sounds silly to you and me, it could be the way things are heading.

The Excession said:

The biggest difference is that a passenger in the car with you can see when your attention needs to be diverted to the road ahead. A person on the end of a phone cannot, and so will continue to natter into your ear when your attention should be directed elsewhere.

Yes, so people keep saying, but I don't find it actually works like that.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[Finlandia]

The Excession said:

The biggest difference is that a passenger in the car with you can see when your attention needs to be diverted to the road ahead. A person on the end of a phone cannot, and so will continue to natter into your ear when your attention should be directed elsewhere.

Exactly my point, the person on the other end of a over the air call can not know the traffic situation you are in, and will keep talking when you need to concentrate on the traffic situation, be the other person on a phone or on a PTT device.
Wouldn't you agree?

The Excession said:

Finlandia said:

vonhosen said:

I'd ban both if I was going to ban one personally.

Exactly, the ban needs to cover both PTT devices and mobile phones, finally a law enforcerer with common sense. I hope this was what you meant?

I think von meant, ban mobiles and hands-free, but keep the PTT - as said above PTT is a completely different kettle of brain game to using a duplex device like a mobile-phone.

Taken from the above reasoning, how is it any different to talk on a phone than to talk on a PTT device?

[vonhosen]

That's nothing, today I saw a driver using a laptop & another reading a newspaper while driving down the motorway.

[Finlandia]

So, why not make a law against the driver reading a newspaper while driving, or using a laptop, or anything else that distracts the driving?

[vonhosen]

Finlandia said:

The Excession said:

The biggest difference is that a passenger in the car with you can see when your attention needs to be diverted to the road ahead. A person on the end of a phone cannot, and so will continue to natter into your ear when your attention should be directed elsewhere.

Exactly my point, the person on the other end of a over the air call can not know the traffic situation you are in, and will keep talking when you need to concentrate on the traffic situation, be the other person on a phone or on a PTT device.
Wouldn't you agree?

The Excession said:

Finlandia said:

vonhosen said:

I'd ban both if I was going to ban one personally.

Exactly, the ban needs to cover both PTT devices and mobile phones, finally a law enforcerer with common sense. I hope this was what you meant?

I think von meant, ban mobiles and hands-free, but keep the PTT - as said above PTT is a completely different kettle of brain game to using a duplex device like a mobile-phone.

Taken from the above reasoning, how is it any different to talk on a phone than to talk on a PTT device?

As I said above, the difference is in the coding/decoding constantly on with phone conversations that doesn't occur in the same way with PTT.

Re your other earlier comments I'm not anti motorist (after all I spend a lot of time in the car myself & wouldn't wish to make it a totally unpleasant experience), I just see phone use as detrimental & so do the studies.

[vonhosen]

Finlandia said:

So, why not make a law against the driver reading a newspaper while driving, or using a laptop, or anything else that distracts the driving?

They could be prosecuted for failing to be in proper control of the vehicle.
A specific offence of using a hand held phone was made simply because the numbers of people doing that is far greater than those who drive using the laptop.

Edited by vonhosen on Thursday 24th April 17:12

[Finlandia]

vonhosen said:

Finlandia said:

So, why not make a law against the driver reading a newspaper while driving, or using a laptop, or anything else that distracts the driving?

The could be prosecuted for failing to be in proper control of the vehicle.
A specific offence of using a hand held phone was made simply because the numbers of people doing that is far greater than those who dive using the laptop.

And the biggest issues when using a phone whilst driving are:

1. The need to hold the phone in one hand, thus only leaving one hand on the steeringwheel.
2. The person on the other end does not know the traffic situation and can thus not shut up when the driver needs to concentrate, as a passenger can.
3. You need to press buttons on the phone, thus taking your eyes off the road.

Would you agree on these three main issues?
Then would you not agree that these all are the exact same for a legal to use PTT device?

[Finlandia]

vonhosen said:

Finlandia said:

So, why not make a law against the driver reading a newspaper while driving, or using a laptop, or anything else that distracts the driving?

They could be prosecuted for failing to be in proper control of the vehicle.
A specific offence of using a hand held phone was made simply because the numbers of people doing that is far greater than those who drive using the laptop.

Edited by vonhosen on Thursday 24th April 17:12

As you say, they could be prosecuted, using a phone, in control or not, you will be prosecuted. Does that make any sense, at all?

[vonhosen]

Finlandia said:

vonhosen said:

Finlandia said:

So, why not make a law against the driver reading a newspaper while driving, or using a laptop, or anything else that distracts the driving?

The could be prosecuted for failing to be in proper control of the vehicle.
A specific offence of using a hand held phone was made simply because the numbers of people doing that is far greater than those who dive using the laptop.

And the biggest issues when using a phone whilst driving are:

1. The need to hold the phone in one hand, thus only leaving one hand on the steeringwheel.
2. The person on the other end does not know the traffic situation and can thus not shut up when the driver needs to concentrate, as a passenger can.
3. You need to press buttons on the phone, thus taking your eyes off the road.

Would you agree on these three main issues?
Then would you not agree that these all are the exact same for a legal to use PTT device?

I've said many times above the difference between PTT & mobile conversations, plus the fact that Police vehicles are fitted with cradles/main sets so that the radio is not hand held.

PTT radio use is not just something for emergency service vehicles only, it's for anyone.

[vonhosen]

Finlandia said:

vonhosen said:

Finlandia said:

So, why not make a law against the driver reading a newspaper while driving, or using a laptop, or anything else that distracts the driving?

They could be prosecuted for failing to be in proper control of the vehicle.
A specific offence of using a hand held phone was made simply because the numbers of people doing that is far greater than those who drive using the laptop.

Edited by vonhosen on Thursday 24th April 17:12

As you say, they could be prosecuted, using a phone, in control or not, you will be prosecuted. Does that make any sense, at all?

Yes, because of the numbers involved & to make it easier to deal with they've a lower burden of proof in that no evidence of diminished control is required, just as they do with speed enforcement where no evidence of danger is required. It's called preventative legislation.

[Finlandia]

vonhosen said:

Finlandia said:

vonhosen said:

Finlandia said:

So, why not make a law against the driver reading a newspaper while driving, or using a laptop, or anything else that distracts the driving?

The could be prosecuted for failing to be in proper control of the vehicle.
A specific offence of using a hand held phone was made simply because the numbers of people doing that is far greater than those who dive using the laptop.

And the biggest issues when using a phone whilst driving are:

1. The need to hold the phone in one hand, thus only leaving one hand on the steeringwheel.
2. The person on the other end does not know the traffic situation and can thus not shut up when the driver needs to concentrate, as a passenger can.
3. You need to press buttons on the phone, thus taking your eyes off the road.

Would you agree on these three main issues?
Then would you not agree that these all are the exact same for a legal to use PTT device?

I've said many times above the difference between PTT & mobile conversations, plus the fact that Police vehicles are fitted with cradles/main sets so that the radio is not hand held.

PTT radio use is not just something for emergency service vehicles only, it's for anyone.

And I've pointed out several times the exact same problems when using them.
1. The need to hold the phone in one hand, thus only leaving one hand on the steeringwheel. (not everyone has a cradle for them)
2. The person on the other end does not know the traffic situation and can thus not shut up when the driver needs to concentrate, as a passenger can. (same with both PTT and mobile)
3. You need to press buttons on the phone, thus taking your eyes off the road. (same with PTT and mobile)

Still one is legal and the other is not?

[Zod]

The new and widespread phenomenon that I have noticed is people holding the phone in one hand away from their head, presumably on loudspeaker. I imagine these idiots think that this somehow doesn't constitute the offence. Now if only they bought a cradle, they could use the phone on loudspeaker to their hearts' content.