Legitmate NIP delaying tactics?
Discussion
Flintstone said:
So let me get this straight.
Someone is seeking to wriggle out of the consequences of their own lawbreaking and we're fine with that?
Either you haven't read anything I've posted properly, you're really stupid or just making trouble. Whatever, get to the back of the queue.Someone is seeking to wriggle out of the consequences of their own lawbreaking and we're fine with that?
Boosted LS1 said:
^ This. OP, you don't want to receive it within 14 days. So, either nail up your box or maybe it'll find it's way onto somebody elses doormat if posties careless. Once past 14 days they'll send you another one. Then you can play silly buggers because they can't prove the first one ever arrived. After all, why send out a second NIP if they think you got the first? Greed and easy money spring to mind. Better still if it's returned to them out of time having been sent to a wrong address first. Or resent to you out of time. There are so many flaws in the mailing system these days they really should be more careful. If only they'd use registered 
I'm fairly sure they must only only prove they sent the original NIP on a date that gave them reasonable expectation it would arrive in 14 days. So, if it went out, say, after 11 days first class and got lost or delayed, then the NIP is still valid.Anyway, I'm not asking about ways to get out of the prosecution, just for examples of legitimate questions I can ask or demands I can make, most of which will inevitably be time consuming.
You will get better advice over at Pepipoo.
The original NIP must be received by the Registered Keeper within 14 days.
Assuming this happens this NIP must be filled in by the recipient, signed (but not necessary in Scotland) and sent back within 28 days.
When a NIP signed by the driver gets back to the scammers a COFP will usually be sent (unless the speed is too higb). Many areas now offer speed awareness courses up to say 39 in a 30 - usual advice is to grab it as it avoids points.
If you respond to a COFP with money and licence the points are added. For totting purposes these count from the date of the alleged offence for three years.
If you don't respond to a COFP you will probably get a summons just within six months - delaying tactics at this point are very possible and it can easily be some months before the inevitable happens - same number of points as the COFP but a vast increase in fine (for daring to argue).
Again the points are effective from date of alleged offence.
There is a thread running at the moment on Pepipoo about the meaning of "pending prosecution".
My personal view is that until the day you either send money/licence OR found guilty in a court there is no absolute guarantee you will get points - and in court you always have the option of an appeal. So a pending court case etc should not be divulged to an insurance company.
Think of the issues of case that drags on for years (always possible) where an insurance company has loaded up a policy - and the eventual verdict is not guilty and in the eyes of the law you never have points. Would excess premiums be refunded, plus interest and an apology?
So, the ultimate legal delay is ignoring a COFP, just be prepared to be hammered by the fine.
The original NIP must be received by the Registered Keeper within 14 days.
Assuming this happens this NIP must be filled in by the recipient, signed (but not necessary in Scotland) and sent back within 28 days.
When a NIP signed by the driver gets back to the scammers a COFP will usually be sent (unless the speed is too higb). Many areas now offer speed awareness courses up to say 39 in a 30 - usual advice is to grab it as it avoids points.
If you respond to a COFP with money and licence the points are added. For totting purposes these count from the date of the alleged offence for three years.
If you don't respond to a COFP you will probably get a summons just within six months - delaying tactics at this point are very possible and it can easily be some months before the inevitable happens - same number of points as the COFP but a vast increase in fine (for daring to argue).
Again the points are effective from date of alleged offence.
There is a thread running at the moment on Pepipoo about the meaning of "pending prosecution".
My personal view is that until the day you either send money/licence OR found guilty in a court there is no absolute guarantee you will get points - and in court you always have the option of an appeal. So a pending court case etc should not be divulged to an insurance company.
Think of the issues of case that drags on for years (always possible) where an insurance company has loaded up a policy - and the eventual verdict is not guilty and in the eyes of the law you never have points. Would excess premiums be refunded, plus interest and an apology?
So, the ultimate legal delay is ignoring a COFP, just be prepared to be hammered by the fine.
thisistedious said:
Flintstone said:
So let me get this straight.
Someone is seeking to wriggle out of the consequences of their own lawbreaking and we're fine with that?
Either you haven't read anything I've posted properly, you're really stupid or just making trouble. Whatever, get to the back of the queue.Someone is seeking to wriggle out of the consequences of their own lawbreaking and we're fine with that?
grumpy geezer said:
Your points count from the date of offence so delay is futile and risky.
Erm. So the points are automagically added to the license on the date of the offence even before the NIP has reached the OP? I don't think so. Yes, when OP finally returns the NIP and the whole process is taken through to its conclusion then the points will be added to the license and be dated the same as the offence, but they won't even exist until that time.thisistedious said:
So, fellow PHers, I may have a nasty little NIP on the the way. Just a three pointer and I'm currently only on three, but for various work and insurance reasons, anything above six may be a serious problem. However, the three I have disappear in about six months.
Thus, I am hoping for advice regards delaying the addition of three new points to my licence. Obviously I can:
1. Use the full 28 period to reply to the NIP.
Can I then:
2. Request help identifying the driver?
And then perhaps:
3. Ask for further proof - calibration docs etc?
4. Anything else?
I'm not looking to break any laws or avoid the points, merely to reduce the period when I am operating with six points to an absolute minimum.
Thanks in advance.
Insurance will always ask for 'pending' convictions too so either way you have to disclose. They do check the dates as well and can void your policy. Your employer may also take a dim view of not telling them, as they will have to disclose to their group insurance. As mentioned the points are applied from the date of the offence regardless of the date of conviction, thus if you were to get another 6 before the 3 existing points expire you could end up on the bus for 6 months. Thus, I am hoping for advice regards delaying the addition of three new points to my licence. Obviously I can:
1. Use the full 28 period to reply to the NIP.
Can I then:
2. Request help identifying the driver?
And then perhaps:
3. Ask for further proof - calibration docs etc?
4. Anything else?
I'm not looking to break any laws or avoid the points, merely to reduce the period when I am operating with six points to an absolute minimum.
Thanks in advance.
thisistedious said:
oldsoak said:
Now you want us to come up with some pie in the sky delaying tactics to avoid both sets of 3 points being on your licence together...when what you should be doing is ensuring you don't get caught out AGAIN...
Hi oldsoak! I'm afraid you appear to be labouring under the misapprehension that I could give the slightest s
t about such mealy mouthed, statist, apparatchik twaddle. It's inevitable, really, given that it's become impossible to post any question about speeding offences without a herd of bureacracy-fetishising eunuchs bleating in redundant fashion about not breaking the limit in the first place.Put another way, let he who is without sin cast the first stone. Or yet another way, sod off!
For anyone in the position to actually provide further information rather than deliver an unsolicited, unwanted and very likely utterly hypocritical lesson in ethics, I'll add a little detail.
The drill goes something like this. For certain types of car loans, what happens is you give a chap your plastic licence, he rings up the DVLA, hands the phone to you, you then identify yourself and give permission for access to your records. Chap in turn is then told how many points you have and if it's eight or less, all is well. Exactly what the terms of the insurance are, I don't know. The simple fact is that the question is asked of the DVLA re points and if it's eight or less, everyone is happy. No further questions are asked of anyone.
Thus, delaying prosecution can have a material impact on the outcome of said phonecall! This is a simple matter of fact.
It's also a fact that there are at least some ways of delaying the points appearing with the DVLA, one of which is using up the initial 28 day period. I am merely enquiring what further options I may have open to me.
One immediate question regards requesting any images or other evidence to identify the driver. Is this not a reasonable request that any police force really ought to comply with? Would have thought a written request and a bit of back and forth might buy one at least a month on return for 10 minutes composition?
If you care to take your head out of your ass for a moment and stop being such a foul mouthed pillock, you (and others) would notice I answered your query with fact however much you choose to avoid accepting it.
Fact 1. You have 3 points currently and stand to gain 3 more
Fact 2. the sum total of both transgressions equals 6
Fact 3. your initial post spoke about points IN EXCESS of 6 being detrimental.
Fact 4. instead of wasting your time...(and ours incidentally) looking to string things out when doing so (as has already been made clear by another poster here) would do no good whatsoever..you would be best served in trying to avoid any more points which would ultimately actually BE detrimental.
HTH
oldsoak said:
My my, I'm labouring under nothing of the sort.
and
oldsoak said:
instead of wasting your time...(and ours incidentally)
oldsoak, you dear thing, you really are a glutton for punishment, aren't you? If you're not labouring under the misapprehension that I could give the slightest st about your comments, why do you keep posting? Likewise, if this is all such of waste of your time, why keep at it? Are you simple?I suppose it's not altogether surprising that you can't compute the basic parameters of my predicament, though frankly I feel pigheadedness probably overlaps with outright stupidity in the Venn diagram of your, shall we say, epistemological shortcomings.
For those of us who live in the real world, the salient factors go something like this. As a motorist on contemporary highways and byways, with the best will in the world it's tricky to absolutely guarantee one doesn't momentarily drift over the limit into three point territory, whether by momentary poor judgement, lack of concentration, poor / cynical signage whatever.
On the other hand, the margin for a six point offence is larger and commensurately easier to manage. Thus, if nine points means major problems, one can motor with confidence while on three points. On six points, it's a Sword of Damocles scenario. The slighest error on my behalf (or that of an authority, for that matter) can spell doom.
Anyway, it really is depressing how infested with mean spirited, statist, anti-motoring apparatchiks PH has become. In the absence of any evidence of dangerous driving, you'd have thought the general disposition would be that of solidarity with any PHer who falls foul of the arbitrary and often counter productive and punitive system of road policing that currently prevails. Instead, you seek to prop up that regime. You are a fool.
The Flying Ox said:
Erm. So the points are automagically added to the license on the date of the offence even before the NIP has reached the OP? I don't think so. Yes, when OP finally returns the NIP and the whole process is taken through to its conclusion then the points will be added to the license and be dated the same as the offence, but they won't even exist until that time.
If you have 9 points on your licence and the police have a pending 3-pointer, lets say for speeding, they will not process the offence by way of Fixed Penalty because at 12 you will be banned.The police always check a licence for current points on the day of the offence so the pending points can be added if there is room below 12 points or the offence is diverted to court if there is not room.
So the answer to your question is "yes" the points are automatically added to what is on your licence by the police for the purposes of deciding how the pending offence is prosecuted.
thisistedious said:
oldsoak, you dear thing, you really are a glutton for punishment, aren't you? If you're not labouring under the misapprehension that I could give the slightest st about your comments, why do you keep posting? Likewise, if this is all such of waste of your time, why keep at it? Are you simple?
I suppose it's not altogether surprising that you can't compute the basic parameters of my predicament, though frankly I feel pigheadedness probably overlaps with outright stupidity in the Venn diagram of your, shall we say, epistemological shortcomings.
For those of us who live in the real world, the salient factors go something like this. As a motorist on contemporary highways and byways, with the best will in the world it's tricky to absolutely guarantee one doesn't momentarily drift over the limit into three point territory, whether by momentary poor judgement, lack of concentration, poor / cynical signage whatever.
On the other hand, the margin for a six point offence is larger and commensurately easier to manage. Thus, if nine points means major problems, one can motor with confidence while on three points. On six points, it's a Sword of Damocles scenario. The slighest error on my behalf (or that of an authority, for that matter) can spell doom.
Anyway, it really is depressing how infested with mean spirited, statist, anti-motoring apparatchiks PH has become. In the absence of any evidence of dangerous driving, you'd have thought the general disposition would be that of solidarity with any PHer who falls foul of the arbitrary and often counter productive and punitive system of road policing that currently prevails. Instead, you seek to prop up that regime. You are a fool.
I think you have been well advised by a number of folk already.t about your comments, why do you keep posting? Likewise, if this is all such of waste of your time, why keep at it? Are you simple?I suppose it's not altogether surprising that you can't compute the basic parameters of my predicament, though frankly I feel pigheadedness probably overlaps with outright stupidity in the Venn diagram of your, shall we say, epistemological shortcomings.
For those of us who live in the real world, the salient factors go something like this. As a motorist on contemporary highways and byways, with the best will in the world it's tricky to absolutely guarantee one doesn't momentarily drift over the limit into three point territory, whether by momentary poor judgement, lack of concentration, poor / cynical signage whatever.
On the other hand, the margin for a six point offence is larger and commensurately easier to manage. Thus, if nine points means major problems, one can motor with confidence while on three points. On six points, it's a Sword of Damocles scenario. The slighest error on my behalf (or that of an authority, for that matter) can spell doom.
Anyway, it really is depressing how infested with mean spirited, statist, anti-motoring apparatchiks PH has become. In the absence of any evidence of dangerous driving, you'd have thought the general disposition would be that of solidarity with any PHer who falls foul of the arbitrary and often counter productive and punitive system of road policing that currently prevails. Instead, you seek to prop up that regime. You are a fool.
Considering you are on an open public forum and are requesting ways of avoiding the consequences of your actions and ways of committing more serious offences the readers of PH don't have to comprehend much of this thread to decide which of those in the debate is obtuse.
There are hundreds if not thousands of examples of PH'ers assisting members in your situation but you should be made aware that it is your belligerent attitude to what would be considered learned advice and your gutless intent that has turned the forum against you. Not bad for just a few posts.
You need to realise that there is a risk to delaying tactics and that risk is to add 9 points to your licence not 3 or 6.
I have read all of your posts and find none of them describe your situation more clearly than the first one. What you have made clear is that you are not one who will attract the help of those here who may otherwise have been willing to give it.
Good luck; you need it.
grumpy geezer said:
I think you have been well advised by a number of folk already.
Considering you are on an open public forum and are requesting ways of avoiding the consequences of your actions and ways of committing more serious offences the readers of PH don't have to comprehend much of this thread to decide which of those in the debate is obtuse.
The sheer fConsidering you are on an open public forum and are requesting ways of avoiding the consequences of your actions and ways of committing more serious offences the readers of PH don't have to comprehend much of this thread to decide which of those in the debate is obtuse.
kwittery of the above post astounds and delights.grumpy geezer said:
You need to realise that there is a risk to delaying tactics and that risk is to add 9 points to your licence not 3 or 6.
No. What needs to happen is you need to go back and read my posts. Including the title of the thread. There's a clue in it. I was asking for advice on legitimate means of delay and clearly stated I was not looking to break any laws. Not illegal means. Or means that could make me subject to further prosecutions and additional points. Legitimate means.To give you one very simple example, when a NIP comes through one can either reply immediately or use the full 28 day period allowed in law. Both are entirely legitimate and legal. The choice is yours but the latter delays the process. I was enquiring as to whether there were any further such legitimate options and gave some examples which I thought might qualify but was unsure. All of this was abundantly clear.
At which point - and mercifully punctuated by a handful of helpful replies - the usual cacophony of s
t stirring, trouble making, irrelevant, told-you-so, holier-than-thou, hypocritical, brain dead, disingenuous and tendentious pontificating was unleashed to which you have added critical mass!Meanwhile, thanks to caziques for his/her actually relevant and helpful which addressed the question I put rather than an imagined one, I'll probably pop over to Pepipoo and see if there's a simple stratagem for all this.
Edited by thisistedious on Saturday 5th March 15:56
thisistedious said:
No. What needs to happen is you need to go back and read my posts. Including the title of the thread. There's a clue in it. I was asking for advice on legitimate means of delay and clearly stated I was not looking to break any laws. Not illegal means. Or means that could make me subject to further prosecutions and additional points. Legitimate means.
To give you one very simple example, when a NIP comes through one can either reply immediately or use the full 28 day period allowed in law. Both are entirely legitimate and legal. The choice is yours but the latter delays the process. I was enquiring as to whether there were any further such legitimate options and gave some examples which I thought might qualify but was unsure. All of this was abundantly clear.
At which point - and mercifully punctuated by a handful of helpful replies - the usual cacophony of st stirring, trouble making, irrelevant, told-you-so, holier-than-thou, hypocritical, brain dead, disingenuous and tendentious pontificating was unleashed to which you have added critical mass!
Meanwhile, thanks to caziques for his/her actually relevant and helpful which addressed the question I put rather than an imagined one, I'll probably pop over to Pepipoo and see if there's a simple stratagem for all this.
There is only one fTo give you one very simple example, when a NIP comes through one can either reply immediately or use the full 28 day period allowed in law. Both are entirely legitimate and legal. The choice is yours but the latter delays the process. I was enquiring as to whether there were any further such legitimate options and gave some examples which I thought might qualify but was unsure. All of this was abundantly clear.
At which point - and mercifully punctuated by a handful of helpful replies - the usual cacophony of s
t stirring, trouble making, irrelevant, told-you-so, holier-than-thou, hypocritical, brain dead, disingenuous and tendentious pontificating was unleashed to which you have added critical mass!Meanwhile, thanks to caziques for his/her actually relevant and helpful which addressed the question I put rather than an imagined one, I'll probably pop over to Pepipoo and see if there's a simple stratagem for all this.
Edited by thisistedious on Saturday 5th March 15:56
kwit on this thread and that is clearly you. Your attitude is why summonses are issued immediately on day 30 more often that they ever were. Happy delay and happy summons or 2.w
ker.Motorrad said:
Flintstone said:
So let me get this straight.
Someone is seeking to wriggle out of the consequences of their own ALLEGED lawbreaking
EFA Someone is seeking to wriggle out of the consequences of their own ALLEGED lawbreaking
(Angry little munchkin, isn't he?)
Edited by Flintstone on Saturday 5th March 16:32
oldsoak said:
...when what you should be doing is ensuring you don't get caught out AGAIN...
Which would ideally be achieved by bringing an end to the whole speed enforcement racket.They are the enemy; denounce them, shun them, pile misery on their sorry parasitic existence at every opportunity.
grumpy geezer said:
If you have 9 points on your licence and the police have a pending 3-pointer, lets say for speeding, they will not process the offence by way of Fixed Penalty because at 12 you will be banned.
So, to illustrate your argument you use a hypothetical situation which has absolutely no relation to the OP's and is therefore worthless in the context of this thread.grumpy geezer said:
The police always check a licence for current points on the day of the offence so the pending points can be added if there is room below 12 points or the offence is diverted to court if there is not room.
So the answer to your question is "yes" the points are automatically added to what is on your licence by the police for the purposes of deciding how the pending offence is prosecuted.
Balderdash and fibbery. License points are the punishment given when an individual has either been proved guilty of, or admitted to, a transgression. To add them to a license before either of those situations has occured simply does not happen. Yes, the points liaible to be added to those already present on a license may well be taken into account when deciding which way to process the offence, but they don't appear on the license until guilt has been ascertained.So the answer to your question is "yes" the points are automatically added to what is on your licence by the police for the purposes of deciding how the pending offence is prosecuted.
I'll let that sink in a bit, then when you reply with some more guff I'll probably give you a situation in which a hypothetical driver with 10 points on his license is clocked at 7 mph over the speed limit by an incorrectly calibrated speedgun despite actually being 2 mph under the limit. I'll explain that on your planet, at the instant the speeding is recorded the driver will have technically amassed more than 12 points and would therefore be banned from driving from that instant, without chance to defend himself or refute the speedgun data. I'll compare this state of affairs with the legal system currently in use here in the UK, Planet Earth, in which the driver will have his day in court -- up until which time he will still have been out and about on the roads, legally, and with only 10 points on his license -- and all things being well would prove that the speedgun was incorrectly calibrated, that no offence was committed, and no points should be added to his license. You'll then probably choke on your Earl Grey, mutter something to the dog, shuffle off to the bureau to get your best Parker ballpoint and fire off a quick letter to the Daily Mail about how "Freedom Of Speech is all well and good, but it has no place on the internet where it can't be properly policed. In my day, we'd have been given a clip from the local bobby for backchatting our elders and we'd have been thankful for it. Of course, that was when we actually had local bobbies patrolling the streets. Don't policeman look young these days? Yours in confusion, Disgruntled of Chipping Sodbury"
Edited by The Flying Ox on Saturday 5th March 20:42
Exige77 said:
oldsoak said:
I don't see you have a problem to worry about...
You have three points currently...yes?
More than 6 (you tell us) would be detrimental to your wallet and work prospects..yes?
You stand to gain another 3 points from your latest adventure into the realms of the illegal...Yes?
Well when I went to school (not often and a long while ago) 3+3=6...not more than 6 or less than 6 but 6.
Now you want us to come up with some pie in the sky delaying tactics to avoid both sets of 3 points being on your licence together...when what you should be doing is ensuring you don't get caught out AGAIN...at least until 3 of the points are time barred. Just take the points and move on...life is complicated enough without adding more confusion to it.
Really helpful post You have three points currently...yes?
More than 6 (you tell us) would be detrimental to your wallet and work prospects..yes?
You stand to gain another 3 points from your latest adventure into the realms of the illegal...Yes?
Well when I went to school (not often and a long while ago) 3+3=6...not more than 6 or less than 6 but 6.
Now you want us to come up with some pie in the sky delaying tactics to avoid both sets of 3 points being on your licence together...when what you should be doing is ensuring you don't get caught out AGAIN...at least until 3 of the points are time barred. Just take the points and move on...life is complicated enough without adding more confusion to it.
Ex77
Most confusing...no?
The Flying Ox said:
Balderdash and fibbery. License points are the punishment given when an individual has either been proved guilty of, or admitted to, a transgression. To add them to a license before either of those situations has occured simply does not happen. Yes, the points liaible to be added to those already present on a license may well be taken into account when deciding which way to process the offence, but they don't appear on the license until guilt has been ascertained.
I'll let that sink in a bit, then when you reply with some more guff I'll probably give you a situation in which a hypothetical driver with 10 points on his license is clocked at 7 mph over the speed limit by an incorrectly calibrated speedgun despite actually being 2 mph under the limit. I'll explain that on your planet, at the instant the speeding is recorded the driver will have technically amassed more than 12 points and would therefore be banned from driving from that instant, without chance to defend himself or refute the speedgun data. I'll compare this state of affairs with the legal system currently in use here in the UK, Planet Earth, in which the driver will have his day in court -- up until which time he will still have been out and about on the roads, legally, and with only 10 points on his license -- and all things being well would prove that the speedgun was incorrectly calibrated, that no offence was committed, and no points should be added to his license. You'll then probably choke on your Earl Grey, mutter something to the dog, shuffle off to the bureau to get your best Parker ballpoint and fire off a quick letter to the Daily Mail about how "Freedom Of Speech is all well and good, but it has no place on the internet where it can't be properly policed. In my day, we'd have been given a clip from the local bobby for backchatting our elders and we'd have been thankful for it. Of course, that was when we actually had local bobbies patrolling the streets. Don't policeman look young these days. Yours in confusion, Disgruntled of Chipping Sodbury"
If you commit an offence and the award of points will put you in the ban territory, 12 or more; you will be dealt with at court and a conditional offer cannot and will not be awarded.I'll let that sink in a bit, then when you reply with some more guff I'll probably give you a situation in which a hypothetical driver with 10 points on his license is clocked at 7 mph over the speed limit by an incorrectly calibrated speedgun despite actually being 2 mph under the limit. I'll explain that on your planet, at the instant the speeding is recorded the driver will have technically amassed more than 12 points and would therefore be banned from driving from that instant, without chance to defend himself or refute the speedgun data. I'll compare this state of affairs with the legal system currently in use here in the UK, Planet Earth, in which the driver will have his day in court -- up until which time he will still have been out and about on the roads, legally, and with only 10 points on his license -- and all things being well would prove that the speedgun was incorrectly calibrated, that no offence was committed, and no points should be added to his license. You'll then probably choke on your Earl Grey, mutter something to the dog, shuffle off to the bureau to get your best Parker ballpoint and fire off a quick letter to the Daily Mail about how "Freedom Of Speech is all well and good, but it has no place on the internet where it can't be properly policed. In my day, we'd have been given a clip from the local bobby for backchatting our elders and we'd have been thankful for it. Of course, that was when we actually had local bobbies patrolling the streets. Don't policeman look young these days. Yours in confusion, Disgruntled of Chipping Sodbury"
The police will always check to see if putting the points on will lead to a ban, the court puts the points on.
The clue was in the words I wrote earlier and you have reflected. So what's your problem?
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