What's Wrong With American Cops?
Discussion
Devil2575 said:
This smacks of "I'm now going to teach her a lesson for not doing as I ordered immediately"
Or was all the excuse he needed to do it?Was it Proportionate, Legal, Authorised/Accountable, Necessary?
I've seen officers throwing their weight around because they can. It's not nice to be there thinking 'Do I put a complaint in against a colleague for that?' or 'If the member of the public makes a justified complaint am I going to tell the truth, just tell what I saw, or am I going to alter it slightly to aid my colleague?'
If you had a personal problem with that colleague it could be all the opportunity you need to lay it on with a trowel and embellish or accenuate the complaint made by the member(s) of the public.
Devil2575 said:
45 seconds. He pulls the taser and she gets back into the car.
At this point she has now complied with his original and reasonable request. This is where the story should have ended with him checking her details and giving a ticket. However he decides to escalate it for no reason and ends up tasering her.
The request to exit the vehicle and lie on the tarmac for a speeding offence was unreasonable.
This smacks of "I'm now going to teach her a lesson for not doing as I ordered immediately"
I can't rewatch it right now.At this point she has now complied with his original and reasonable request. This is where the story should have ended with him checking her details and giving a ticket. However he decides to escalate it for no reason and ends up tasering her.
The request to exit the vehicle and lie on the tarmac for a speeding offence was unreasonable.
This smacks of "I'm now going to teach her a lesson for not doing as I ordered immediately"
But when she got back in the car, wasn't he telling her to lie down.
She disobeyed, as far as he knew she was getting a gun or getting ready to drive off.
At the point he pulled the taser the situation had changed - she had missed her chance to play nice.
At that point she either did what she was told or she was getting tazered.
Had she done as she was told from the start she would not have been tazered.
She acted like a criminal and got treated like one.
Matt Harper said:
She most definitely behaved in a way that could be (and clearly was) perceived as threatening. I can't impress how potentially lethal traffic stops are to American coppers.
No she did not. She got arsey initially but clearly as soon as he pulled his taser she realised the gravity of the situation and got back into the car.
Snowboy said:
r?
Had he pandered to her then she would have been the one with the power.
I think this is what it is all about. As often as not the situations shown on the videos are about Police Officers going miles too far whilst trying to dominate or control a situation. Had he pandered to her then she would have been the one with the power.
Let's see, kid gets thumped for not tucking in his shirt tail when ordered to do so, cameraman or reporter get thumped for refusing to stop filming, paramedic gets pinned to his ambulance by the throat because he countermands a police instruction to his driver and commands this driver to take the patient to hospital, fire chief is handcuffed and spread over a car bonnet for defying a police instruction to move a fire tender, Canadian gets arrested and told "you're gonna jail" for replying to a command "don't you shake you're head at me" with "what ya gonna do? Shoot me for shaking my head?" anyone see a pattern?
I've mountain biked in the USA for years. I used to visit ski resorts in the summer when it was cheap. I've seen cops in action and it's scary. What they're bad for is ramping up the confrontation way out of proportion to the level of confrontation coming from the member of the public they are dealing with and way out of proportion to the levels of threat they provide and as often as not the level of the offence committed.
It goes like this. Cop stops young professional, well spoken, well educated Brits mountain biking in Colorado. They've come down a mountain road like bullets from a gun on carbon fibre pedal cycles.
The Cop starts "do you know how fast you came down that hill?".
One smart-Alec looks down, sweeps an open hand across his handlebars and replies "no speedo".
Next thing his blue hands are in wrist breakingly tight handcuffs. "You're not so funny now funny-boy. Come here and smart-mouth us and you go to jail". Apparently this one comment constitutes "failure to comply" "insulting a police officer" and "disorderly conduct".
The rest of the group are told "One word. One word, and you all go to jail"
Members of the group are warned for facial expressions, sighing and giving eye contact. The officers use expressions like "piss me off and I'll put you in a world of hurt" and if I have to arrest you "I will put you down hard," "you wont believe how dangerous the situation you are in right now" and "you make sure you decide right coz here, you mess up and you go to jail for a long time".
Is anyone going to say this sort of interaction is justifiable on some level. Are slightly built, lycra clad Brit tourists such a threat they need to be subjected to this level of threat? I don't think so. What's more if that's how they treat the well off and innocent how do they treat the young, poor and defiant. I have a feeling it will be grim.
Devil2575 said:
Matt Harper said:
She most definitely behaved in a way that could be (and clearly was) perceived as threatening. I can't impress how potentially lethal traffic stops are to American coppers.
No she did not. She got arsey initially but clearly as soon as he pulled his taser she realised the gravity of the situation and got back into the car.
But the cops perception was that she was still a potential threat.
I'm inclined to agree with the cop.
How do you know this woman hasn't just murdered her husband and is running with her kids and is getting her gun from the car to shoot the damned cop who had the nerve to point a taser at her.
How dare he. She'll show him!
Take a look at how many cops are killed each year in the US in routine traffic stops.
It's sad reading.
Then take another look at what happened here.
Edited by Snowboy on Wednesday 9th October 17:33
Police officers are never known to get arsey are they?
Their training doesn't include when to spot when you or your colleagues may be erring towards stroppiness?
Acting like a criminal is a crime?
Some police fly on the wall documentary covered a training session where an officer is role playing a nominal hanging around a car in a car park.
How much time do you think I spend admiring cars in car parks rather than go into the supermarket?
If I am stood besides a Celica GT-Four in the Tesco car park at Thetford am I looking to steal it or am I waiting for someone doing the shopping and I want to check out the GT-Four?
I don't suppose in the last century I had a torch beam flicker across a window in the middle of the night and then got out of bed to check what was going on. Do you think I may have called the police? Do you think the police that answered the phone said 'It's some of our officers checking cars sir, nothing to worry about'. Yes, BiB in the middle of the night checking the tax discs on cars in my street. Well it was a bit 'Council'.
There are men outside in the street of the middle of the night. They could be criminals up to no good. Best I reach for my gun and fill them full of lead because I can? Oooops, they were police officers being proactive and doing their job and weren't actually ne'erdowells despite it being a council estate?
'She was acting like a criminal'?
Like former Teacher and Landlord Christopher Jefferies? Like that Brazilian Electrician chap running around the tube? Like Ian Tomlinson?
And what do you think I act like?
Do you think I may walk like a criminal? Glare like a criminal? Drive like a criminal?
I think you'd really benefit from volunteering with the police. You'll meet some police, see what the job entails and then have another perspective and some experience of your own to call upon.
I wasn't in the car at the time, so I am just repeating the tale, but I have heard of some going out with the police as an observer may have been in a car that made some significant progress.
Using incapacitant spray, cuffs and limb restraints is nothing like using a keyboard.
Their training doesn't include when to spot when you or your colleagues may be erring towards stroppiness?
Acting like a criminal is a crime?
Some police fly on the wall documentary covered a training session where an officer is role playing a nominal hanging around a car in a car park.
How much time do you think I spend admiring cars in car parks rather than go into the supermarket?
If I am stood besides a Celica GT-Four in the Tesco car park at Thetford am I looking to steal it or am I waiting for someone doing the shopping and I want to check out the GT-Four?
I don't suppose in the last century I had a torch beam flicker across a window in the middle of the night and then got out of bed to check what was going on. Do you think I may have called the police? Do you think the police that answered the phone said 'It's some of our officers checking cars sir, nothing to worry about'. Yes, BiB in the middle of the night checking the tax discs on cars in my street. Well it was a bit 'Council'.
There are men outside in the street of the middle of the night. They could be criminals up to no good. Best I reach for my gun and fill them full of lead because I can? Oooops, they were police officers being proactive and doing their job and weren't actually ne'erdowells despite it being a council estate?
'She was acting like a criminal'?
Like former Teacher and Landlord Christopher Jefferies? Like that Brazilian Electrician chap running around the tube? Like Ian Tomlinson?
And what do you think I act like?
Do you think I may walk like a criminal? Glare like a criminal? Drive like a criminal?
I think you'd really benefit from volunteering with the police. You'll meet some police, see what the job entails and then have another perspective and some experience of your own to call upon.
I wasn't in the car at the time, so I am just repeating the tale, but I have heard of some going out with the police as an observer may have been in a car that made some significant progress.
Using incapacitant spray, cuffs and limb restraints is nothing like using a keyboard.
Edited by carinaman on Wednesday 9th October 17:44
Devil2575 said:
No she did not.
She got arsey initially but clearly as soon as he pulled his taser she realised the gravity of the situation and got back into the car.
Er - yes she did. Cop took license/insurance - he will have asked her to "Wait right there" while he ran it for warrants. He was heading back to the cruiser, with his back to her, when she got out of the car. That's #1She got arsey initially but clearly as soon as he pulled his taser she realised the gravity of the situation and got back into the car.
That would be a big alert for any US cop and clearly was for him (see how fast he reacts) - the reality is she could have shot him at that point, had she been so inclined.
He instructs her to get back in the car - she defies him and doesn't comply. That's #2 The cop now has a confrontation on his hands and wants to secure (detain) her and he now has the grounds to do just that.
At this point, she pulls back and now tries to get back in the car - that's #3 - is she attempting to flee? Reaching for a weapon? Should he just assume that none of those could possibly be her intent?
Now she's dragged out of the car and instead of taking advantage of a THIRD opportunity to comply, she attempts to re-enter the car and that's when he zaps her.
She perpetrated this - all in front of her children (which is inexcusable in itself).
I believe that this all took place in San Antonio TX - a state with higher per capita gun ownership than anywhere else in the USA.
Now - being a chemical engineer, I've no doubt that you have a lot more knowledge of US police training and tactics/strategy than others who've contributed to this debate - so I'm interested to learn where you have amassed your in-depth knowledge of the subject.
Matt Harper said:
Er - yes she did. Cop took license/insurance - he will have asked her to "Wait right there" while he ran it for warrants. He was heading back to the cruiser, with his back to her, when she got out of the car. That's #1
That would be a big alert for any US cop and clearly was for him (see how fast he reacts) - the reality is she could have shot him at that point, had she been so inclined.
He instructs her to get back in the car - she defies him and doesn't comply. That's #2 The cop now has a confrontation on his hands and wants to secure (detain) her and he now has the grounds to do just that.
At this point, she pulls back and now tries to get back in the car - that's #3 - is she attempting to flee? Reaching for a weapon? Should he just assume that none of those could possibly be her intent?
Now she's dragged out of the car and instead of taking advantage of a THIRD opportunity to comply, she attempts to re-enter the car and that's when he zaps her.
She perpetrated this - all in front of her children (which is inexcusable in itself).
I believe that this all took place in San Antonio TX - a state with higher per capita gun ownership than anywhere else in the USA.
Now - being a chemical engineer, I've no doubt that you have a lot more knowledge of US police training and tactics/strategy than others who've contributed to this debate - so I'm interested to learn where you have amassed your in-depth knowledge of the subject.
Or how about "Soccer mom who has never so much as thought about committing a crime is stopped and she gets all flustered and doesn't know what to do having never had any cause to have any interaction with police, she thinks the guy was going to show her the video and gets out to see it, he then tells her to get back in the car, she goes to get in the car and he changes his mind again and wants her to lie in the road 2 feet from highway speed vehicles and in front of her already terrified children, he then tries to physically prise her from the car and ends up zapping this highly dangerous 6 stone woman" his mother must be so proud, his ability to read people which all those with a semi on defending this idiot say is essential in the US is obviously lacking..... you don't need to be "in the job" to be able to read people.That would be a big alert for any US cop and clearly was for him (see how fast he reacts) - the reality is she could have shot him at that point, had she been so inclined.
He instructs her to get back in the car - she defies him and doesn't comply. That's #2 The cop now has a confrontation on his hands and wants to secure (detain) her and he now has the grounds to do just that.
At this point, she pulls back and now tries to get back in the car - that's #3 - is she attempting to flee? Reaching for a weapon? Should he just assume that none of those could possibly be her intent?
Now she's dragged out of the car and instead of taking advantage of a THIRD opportunity to comply, she attempts to re-enter the car and that's when he zaps her.
She perpetrated this - all in front of her children (which is inexcusable in itself).
I believe that this all took place in San Antonio TX - a state with higher per capita gun ownership than anywhere else in the USA.
Now - being a chemical engineer, I've no doubt that you have a lot more knowledge of US police training and tactics/strategy than others who've contributed to this debate - so I'm interested to learn where you have amassed your in-depth knowledge of the subject.
Some people will just blindly defend the indefensible because in their view these cops can do no wrong?
Reference the fire chief being hauled away from treating a patient in cuffs for using an established "fend off" safety position, that cop should have been fired, no defence at all for doing what he did, but no doubt some will try......
Gary
Tannedbaldhead said:
Bumped into a video the other day on Youtube which then gave loads of links to US Law Enforcement Officers behaving atrociously towards members of the public. Examples included a Fire Chief subject to a hard arrest for refusing to obey an instruction to move a fire tender that was shielding a paramedic from Highway traffic as he worked on a casualty, a Paramedic who was pinned to his ambulance by the throat (his crime was to leave the back of the ambulance and TELL his ambulance driver to ignore a police officer who was dealing with a minor traffic offence the driver had committed and TELL the officer to deal with the driver at the hospital after they had delivered a patient), beating a schoolkid badly for refusing to tuck in a T Shirt, beat a kid for wearing a T-Shirt that said "The wearing of this T-Shirt is an illegal protest" while standing giggling next to a cop getting videoed by his friend, horrendous beatings, tazings and CS gassings of peaceful protesters and journalists, CS gassing and Tazing of motorists for refusing to sign charge papers, tazing wheel-chair users for "refusing" to stand up and then one has a mass of unarmed individuals shot.
What the hell is wrong over there? And why do the US public put up with it?
You watch a vid of a cop arresting a fire-chief for placing his tender in a position to protect a paramedic and get arrested because a cop told him not to and amongst the comments from the general public on forums is "Well he defied the cop. You just don't do that. He's lucking the cop didn't taze his sorry ass."
I despair.
In a nutshell, that is why it is very very difficult to persuade the Americans to give up their right to bear arms. They simply do not trust the police and prefer not to let them be the only armed people in the countryWhat the hell is wrong over there? And why do the US public put up with it?
You watch a vid of a cop arresting a fire-chief for placing his tender in a position to protect a paramedic and get arrested because a cop told him not to and amongst the comments from the general public on forums is "Well he defied the cop. You just don't do that. He's lucking the cop didn't taze his sorry ass."
I despair.
Its really difficult to compare Policing in the U.S. with the UK. We look and speak broadly the same - thats where it ends.
I policed front line for 30yrs, not in particularly nice areas. Must have stopped thousands of cars over the years, both on my own and double crewed. Mix of occupants in the stopped cars and reasons for stops. Never had to deal with them the way the Americans have to. Get them out and away from the car, then on with the reason for the stop. I never had to stand ten feet away shouting orders.
We dont have a gun culture over here with the odd Police shooting being the exception rather than the rule. Tasers are being used more often and the idiot who zapped the blind bloke needs his arse kicking. I saw the introduction of Quick kuffs, batons and sprays and saw their use go from rare to routine. Prior to their introduction it was wooden truncheon and/or fisticuffs.
At no point did I ever to worry about being shot and never gave it a thought unless the info was that one had been used. Never had the fears the US cops seem to have as well as the blind, fearful respect they often demand. In the UK we manage and get by in the way we Police. Others can banter, joke with and sometimes take the piss out of officers - within reason - without getting a beating and arrested.
UK Police arent angels and i'm the first to criticise them when I see wrong things done. You'll struggle to find abuse videos of UK Cops any where near the magnitude of the US stuff.
We are two totally different cultures reflected in Policing styles. In Arizona you can still carry a holstered loaded pistol, spear, bowie knife and sword in public and even legally hunt hogs with dogs, knives and spears. Carry a penknife in the UK under the wrong circumstances and youll get nicked. The tasering of the Soccer mum was just plain wrong -why not walk her away from the car and deal with her rather that bullying attack on her.
Anyway just my two cents worth -we cant compare Policing styles but hope to hell ours doesnt move any nearer to theirs
I policed front line for 30yrs, not in particularly nice areas. Must have stopped thousands of cars over the years, both on my own and double crewed. Mix of occupants in the stopped cars and reasons for stops. Never had to deal with them the way the Americans have to. Get them out and away from the car, then on with the reason for the stop. I never had to stand ten feet away shouting orders.
We dont have a gun culture over here with the odd Police shooting being the exception rather than the rule. Tasers are being used more often and the idiot who zapped the blind bloke needs his arse kicking. I saw the introduction of Quick kuffs, batons and sprays and saw their use go from rare to routine. Prior to their introduction it was wooden truncheon and/or fisticuffs.
At no point did I ever to worry about being shot and never gave it a thought unless the info was that one had been used. Never had the fears the US cops seem to have as well as the blind, fearful respect they often demand. In the UK we manage and get by in the way we Police. Others can banter, joke with and sometimes take the piss out of officers - within reason - without getting a beating and arrested.
UK Police arent angels and i'm the first to criticise them when I see wrong things done. You'll struggle to find abuse videos of UK Cops any where near the magnitude of the US stuff.
We are two totally different cultures reflected in Policing styles. In Arizona you can still carry a holstered loaded pistol, spear, bowie knife and sword in public and even legally hunt hogs with dogs, knives and spears. Carry a penknife in the UK under the wrong circumstances and youll get nicked. The tasering of the Soccer mum was just plain wrong -why not walk her away from the car and deal with her rather that bullying attack on her.
Anyway just my two cents worth -we cant compare Policing styles but hope to hell ours doesnt move any nearer to theirs
Oh look. A routine traffic stop on a car with three kids in it. What could possibly go wrong:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1aVBdQ-Hdg
Routine traffic stop. Nothing to fear here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AokjLn-fpww
Routine traffic stop:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywVrhnZAKfg
Routine traffic stop;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNxz4EyDFoo
Easy to criticise from behind the safety of a keyboard.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1aVBdQ-Hdg
Routine traffic stop. Nothing to fear here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AokjLn-fpww
Routine traffic stop:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywVrhnZAKfg
Routine traffic stop;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNxz4EyDFoo
Easy to criticise from behind the safety of a keyboard.
Elroy Blue said:
Oh look. A routine traffic stop on a car with three kids in it. What could possibly go wrong:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1aVBdQ-Hdg
Routine traffic stop. Nothing to fear here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AokjLn-fpww
Routine traffic stop:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywVrhnZAKfg
Routine traffic stop;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNxz4EyDFoo
Exactly my point - different cultures - that doesnt happen over here - US public have the Police they ask for if thats what theyre dealing with.
Got any decent UK examples like this?
Easy to criticise from behind the safety of a keyboard.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1aVBdQ-Hdg
Routine traffic stop. Nothing to fear here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AokjLn-fpww
Routine traffic stop:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywVrhnZAKfg
Routine traffic stop;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNxz4EyDFoo
Exactly my point - different cultures - that doesnt happen over here - US public have the Police they ask for if thats what theyre dealing with.
Got any decent UK examples like this?
Easy to criticise from behind the safety of a keyboard.
The USA can be a much more violent place than the EU... its their history.
The right to bear arms is enshrined in american culture.
In a number of states one is allowed to carry weapons in the vehicle
Certainly in the far north of California every one I knew carried, some had M4's, AK47's etc, but everyone carried a rifle or shotgun in their car. First time I ever came across gun toting, redneck hippies
The cops there never new when they pulled someone over if they were going to get shot at.
They do a tough job, and for the most part do it very well.
The right to bear arms is enshrined in american culture.
In a number of states one is allowed to carry weapons in the vehicle
Certainly in the far north of California every one I knew carried, some had M4's, AK47's etc, but everyone carried a rifle or shotgun in their car. First time I ever came across gun toting, redneck hippies
The cops there never new when they pulled someone over if they were going to get shot at.
They do a tough job, and for the most part do it very well.
Bigends said:
Exactly my point - different cultures - that doesnt happen over here - US public have the Police they ask for if thats what theyre dealing with.
Got any decent UK examples like this?
Easy to criticise from behind the safety of a keyboard.
If you were a Police Officer as you claim, then you'd be well aware that violence after traffic stops is frequent and often. Thankfully firearms are rare, but knives, scredrivers and just plain old fists are common. The only difference is we don't release our videos to You Tube.Got any decent UK examples like this?
Easy to criticise from behind the safety of a keyboard.
So I don't sit 'behind the safety of a keyboard'. I'm out doing it every working day and night. But you'd class me as a 'traffic' Officer and you've already given your opinion on those.
santona1937 said:
The USA can be a much more violent place than the EU... its their history.
The right to bear arms is enshrined in american culture.
In a number of states one is allowed to carry weapons in the vehicle
Certainly in the far north of California every one I knew carried, some had M4's, AK47's etc, but everyone carried a rifle or shotgun in their car. First time I ever came across gun toting, redneck hippies
The cops there never new when they pulled someone over if they were going to get shot at.
They do a tough job, and for the most part do it very well.
Yet they have banned Kinder eggs because they endanger children...The right to bear arms is enshrined in american culture.
In a number of states one is allowed to carry weapons in the vehicle
Certainly in the far north of California every one I knew carried, some had M4's, AK47's etc, but everyone carried a rifle or shotgun in their car. First time I ever came across gun toting, redneck hippies
The cops there never new when they pulled someone over if they were going to get shot at.
They do a tough job, and for the most part do it very well.
I notice many of the posters are getting overly hung up on whether or not "Soccer Mum's" tasering was justifiable or not. What would be more interesting would be Matt and Elroy's take on the treatment of the Paramedic, Fire Chief and Canadian tourist. Is the USA so different from the UK that we just don't get how unacceptable it is to defy a cop under any circumstances? That said, were the cops right to treat them the way they did? Would a cop be justified in going into "You wanna go to jail boy?" mode when a cyclist points out his bike hasn't a speedo when the cop asks "you know how fast you were going?".
Am asking this regularly and no-one is answering
Am asking this regularly and no-one is answering
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