Ian Huntley sues for £100,000 compensation.

[Jonleeper]

10 Pence Short said:

grumbledoak said:

stitched said:

I doubt it's a particularly popular stance ...

Don't believe it. Though the Grauniad readers want you to think it, the real reason we don't get a vote on the death sentence is because we'd give 'the wrong answer'.

For killing kids we should treat their lives with the contempt they treated others'.

Edited by grumbledoak on Wednesday 4th August 01:16

What on earth makes you believe that?

As with most advanced nations, we used to have the death sentence but, as we came to realise it's not the solution, it was removed. What makes you think this nation has reversed its feelings on the matter, in contravention with the feelings in the majority of other Westernised ones?

I would suggest there is no referendum on the death sentence not because it would give the 'wrong' answer, but because there isn't enough demand for one to justify it. Were it a thought a populist policy then you would find at least one of the newsworthy political organisations clamouring for it in return for votes. I don't see that happening, do you?

As for your Guardian Reader comments, well what's that all about? As a debating tool I really dislike this New Labour tactic of labelling people wrongly just because they don't happen to agree with you on a particular stance.

That I don't like or agree with the death penalty does not make me liberal or left wing. I don't think it prevents crime, I don't think it saves money and I don't think the system is infallible enough to prevent miscarriages of justice or capable enough to bring people back to life when they occur. On that basis the concept of needing a death sentence is flawed, in my opinion.

I would prefer that people who commit the most serious of crimes are removed to protect society and, whilst they're held, they are at least worked upon to become productive in even the smallest ways.

This, to me at least, is the hub of the issue. The last time I saw a paper written on re-offending rates the incarceration centre with the lowest rate was the Military Corrective Training Centre (MCTC) in Colchester. The numbers re-offending from there are, roughly, the same as those for the rehabilitated from most of HM Prisons. This is, of course, in a small way related to the demographic and the crimes for which the “trainees” have been sent there but if you look at the sort of crimes that our young offenders are first sentenced there is little difference. (Normally alcohol, anti-social behaviour or minor violence related) There was a pilot to send some of the civilian young offenders to MCTC but this failed as they felt that getting out of bed in the morning, actually having to work for privileges and not having easy access to TV and other home comforts was in some way an abuse of their “Human Rights”. The system at MCTC is not overly harsh, it is just rigid and involves the trainee taking responsibility for themselves, (cleaning and tidying their bed space, washing and ironing their clothes, etc) taking collective responsibility for each other and the group, (sharing dormitories, cleaning and maintaining the shared areas, ablutions etc) and instils some pride and focus in the individual through physical exercise and training. Privileges are earned not expected and thus valued highly. This is the sort of education that is proven to assist in the building of productive members of society not rejected outcasts whose only recourse is crime.

Yes I am a member of the military system, and yes I am an officer not a soldier but I have seen first hand how the support and self-confidence instilled by our training can take some of the worst from society and create some of the best. Two years ago I had to say farewell to a Senior Non-Commissioned Officer (SNCO) who had only joined the Army as the Judge had said to a young scrote in front of him yet again “it’s prison or the Army for you young lad” who then became a very confident valued member of a team and left 22 years later with bright employment prospects and a real future. I also attended the National Defence Logistic Vocational Qualification Trust (Def Log VQ) awards with three of my young soldiers who had achieved nothing through school, if they even attended, but with the support provided had become the youngest people to ever earn the new National Apprenticeship in Logistics. They then went onto the National Awards and did very well there too. What is wrong with our system is not that we incarcerate our youngsters it is that we do not provide a constructive pathway for them to outgrow their start in life and become a productive part of our society. It is too difficult, and costs more than simply putting them in a small room and letting them fester with their peers.

[HundredthIdiot]

otolith said:

If we held a referendum on it, I think it would be passed with a large majority - and I don't think it is untrue or unreasonable to point out that as a result this is something that the political class will never allow to happen.

Whilst I find the whole "the proles are too stupid to be given the choice" undertone of the Grauniadistas to be fairly repulsive, I do think you can substitute "people who have thought it through" for "the political class" in some cases, one of which being this.

The US system looks completely broken to me, and I can't imagine we'd do any better.

I'd rather expend the money and creative effort "improving" the current non-muderous regime in various interesting directions, for instance by trying to "fix" Huntley using various combinations of invasive brain surgery and experimental psychoactive drug regimes. Or just arbitrary surgical experimentation. For instance, I've always wondered what the results of swapping someones arms and legs would be.

[The real Apache]

Jonleeper said:

There was a pilot to send some of the civilian young offenders to MCTC but this failed as they felt that getting out of bed in the morning, actually having to work for privileges and not having easy access to TV and other home comforts was in some way an abuse of their “Human Rights”.

It's absurd isn't it, by denying these people access to MCTC you are really condemning them to a life of crime, how could that be seen as protecting their human rights. No pain no gain seems to be ok for slimmers but not offenders it seems.

Prison IMO is the result of the Govt taking the easy/cheapest option. Chain Gangs would be difficult to manage and probably costly, hanging would be a politically minefield.
The Military alternative seems to be the best way forward providing those in power have the gonads to tell the PC brigade to feck off

[jazzyjeff]

HundredthIdiot said:

otolith said:

I've always wondered what the results of swapping someones arms and legs would be.

Going out on a limb, I don't think he'd have a leg to stand on...

JJ

[Jonleeper]

I could not find the link I was looking for but did find this from a previous study.

http://rds.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs2/r163.pdf

It is interesting to note that in both cases, the Thorne Cross and Colchester groups, re-offending took place later and was less prolific than the control group. This would seem, to me at least, to indicate that once released there was a window of opportunity to continue the good work started and a small amount of support would have allowed these individuals to completely rehabilitate into society and reform. The failing was not the corrective training but the lack of any aftercare once released. In the military system once released they are immediately returned to their units who can then continue to reinforce the lessons learnt and support and assist in rehabilitation.

Can we say the same of our parole system?

[streaky]

jazzyjeff said:

HundredthIdiot said:

I've always wondered what the results of swapping someones arms and legs would be.

Going out on a limb, I don't think he'd have a leg to stand on...

JJ

But he'd be relatively 'armless - Streaky

Edited by streaky on Thursday 5th August 11:39

[streaky]

otolith said:

... amongst the political ruling class, hardly anyone is in favour of attempting to reinstate it, left or right, ...

Regardless, there is no chance of reinstating the death penalty whilst we remain a member of the EU - Streaky

[oldsoak]

streaky said:

otolith said:

... amongst the political ruling class, hardly anyone is in favour of attempting to reinstate it, left or right, ...

Regardless, there is no chance of reinstating the death penalty whilst we remain a member of the EU - Streaky

So let's pull out of the EU then...I'm sick and tired of only being able to buy straight cucumbers anyway.

[otolith]

streaky said:

otolith said:

... amongst the political ruling class, hardly anyone is in favour of attempting to reinstate it, left or right, ...

Regardless, there is no chance of reinstating the death penalty whilst we remain a member of the EU - Streaky

That's why I worded it like that - I suspect that there are a few more who are in favour of it in principle but are not in favour of attempting to reinstate it because it would be in breach of the European Convention on Human Rights.

[jazzyjeff]

oldsoak said:

So let's pull out of the EU then...I'm sick and tired of only being able to buy straight cucumbers anyway.

Surely an overreaction? You could always grow your own

JJ

[oldsoak]

jazzyjeff said:

oldsoak said:

So let's pull out of the EU then...I'm sick and tired of only being able to buy straight cucumbers anyway.

Surely an overreaction? You could always grow your own

JJ

I do, but when I have need to buy I'd rather not be foisted off with the bland but perfickly (sic) formed specimens that Brussels instructs we have.
Ted the Teeth did us no favours at all!

[stitched]

Jonleeper said:

I could not find the link I was looking for but did find this from a previous study.

http://rds.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs2/r163.pdf

It is interesting to note that in both cases, the Thorne Cross and Colchester groups, re-offending took place later and was less prolific than the control group. This would seem, to me at least, to indicate that once released there was a window of opportunity to continue the good work started and a small amount of support would have allowed these individuals to completely rehabilitate into society and reform. The failing was not the corrective training but the lack of any aftercare once released. In the military system once released they are immediately returned to their units who can then continue to reinforce the lessons learnt and support and assist in rehabilitation.

Can we say the same of our parole system?

I don't really aim my comments at the kind of offender who is drifting into a life of crime, these people generally murder children only as an accidental byproduct of a criminal lifestyle.
The few twisted souls currently incarcerated indefinately tend not to have drifted into their position but wilfully walked there.
I doubt the government would be able to manage a system in which the death penalty were an option and so in reality given a choice I would probably vote no.
However if given the legal right by society I would remove breathing rights from a few of them, not for the sake of revenge, or even from anger or outrage but from a position that their crimes deserve such a fate.

[grumbledoak]

jazzyjeff said:

Sadly 10P, the irony is that it tends to be the rabid right-wingers on here that pigeonhole in this manner. Its deflection tactics, that's all.

[Jonleeper]

stitched said:

Jonleeper said:

I could not find the link I was looking for but did find this from a previous study.

http://rds.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs2/r163.pdf

It is interesting to note that in both cases, the Thorne Cross and Colchester groups, re-offending took place later and was less prolific than the control group. This would seem, to me at least, to indicate that once released there was a window of opportunity to continue the good work started and a small amount of support would have allowed these individuals to completely rehabilitate into society and reform. The failing was not the corrective training but the lack of any aftercare once released. In the military system once released they are immediately returned to their units who can then continue to reinforce the lessons learnt and support and assist in rehabilitation.

Can we say the same of our parole system?

I don't really aim my comments at the kind of offender who is drifting into a life of crime, these people generally murder children only as an accidental byproduct of a criminal lifestyle.
The few twisted souls currently incarcerated indefinately tend not to have drifted into their position but wilfully walked there.
I doubt the government would be able to manage a system in which the death penalty were an option and so in reality given a choice I would probably vote no.
However if given the legal right by society I would remove breathing rights from a few of them, not for the sake of revenge, or even from anger or outrage but from a position that their crimes deserve such a fate.

Whilst I agree in your specific areas I feel that you are missing the point that by effectively dealing with the minor offences early you can change the general levels of crime and thus engender a more lawful society. In this case serious crimes, such as those you specify, would be detected earlier, society would have a more open nature to assist the police and they would have greater resources to allocate to finding the perpetrators. Whilst this would not stop serious offenders it might limit the scope of their crimes. Also by making the prison system a more responsibility based system life for those who are so twisted that they cannot accept they hold any responsibility to their victims or society in general would be worse off within the prisons and thus face a much harder life than is currently the case. This would, I hope, fulfil the need of some to see a form of vengeance being carried out on the criminals.

[stitched]

Jonleeper said:

stitched said:

Jonleeper said:

I could not find the link I was looking for but did find this from a previous study.

http://rds.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs2/r163.pdf

It is interesting to note that in both cases, the Thorne Cross and Colchester groups, re-offending took place later and was less prolific than the control group. This would seem, to me at least, to indicate that once released there was a window of opportunity to continue the good work started and a small amount of support would have allowed these individuals to completely rehabilitate into society and reform. The failing was not the corrective training but the lack of any aftercare once released. In the military system once released they are immediately returned to their units who can then continue to reinforce the lessons learnt and support and assist in rehabilitation.

Can we say the same of our parole system?

I don't really aim my comments at the kind of offender who is drifting into a life of crime, these people generally murder children only as an accidental byproduct of a criminal lifestyle.
The few twisted souls currently incarcerated indefinately tend not to have drifted into their position but wilfully walked there.
I doubt the government would be able to manage a system in which the death penalty were an option and so in reality given a choice I would probably vote no.
However if given the legal right by society I would remove breathing rights from a few of them, not for the sake of revenge, or even from anger or outrage but from a position that their crimes deserve such a fate.

Whilst I agree in your specific areas I feel that you are missing the point that by effectively dealing with the minor offences early you can change the general levels of crime and thus engender a more lawful society. In this case serious crimes, such as those you specify, would be detected earlier, society would have a more open nature to assist the police and they would have greater resources to allocate to finding the perpetrators. Whilst this would not stop serious offenders it might limit the scope of their crimes. Also by making the prison system a more responsibility based system life for those who are so twisted that they cannot accept they hold any responsibility to their victims or society in general would be worse off within the prisons and thus face a much harder life than is currently the case. This would, I hope, fulfil the need of some to see a form of vengeance being carried out on the criminals.

Sorry I should have included that I fully agree with the stated methods as a far better way of managing the reduction in criminality within our society.
If we managed rehabilitation even poorly then yes a great many would be steered in the direction of a civilised life.
However we would always find some few who cause pain and suffering for pleasure rather than gain. I have met many kids who were en route to jail and seen a few steered back on course, however I only met one who chilled me and, before his 20th birthday he was in jail.
His crime, murder, for little or any motive was entirely too predictable.
Incidentally his father whose identity he was unaware of had died at an early age (19 I think) and was suspected of a similarly chilling crime.
This kind of flotsam will always be washed up occasionally regardless of how lawful our society becomes and I see no reason to incarcerate them for their lives.
Edited for numpty use of quoting

Edited by stitched on Wednesday 4th August 12:47

[streaky]

And now Sutcliffe challenges 'die in jail' ruling - see separate thread - Streaky

Edited by streaky on Wednesday 4th August 13:57

[Jonleeper]

stitched said:

Jonleeper said:

stitched said:

Jonleeper said:

I could not find the link I was looking for but did find this from a previous study.

http://rds.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs2/r163.pdf

It is interesting to note that in both cases, the Thorne Cross and Colchester groups, re-offending took place later and was less prolific than the control group. This would seem, to me at least, to indicate that once released there was a window of opportunity to continue the good work started and a small amount of support would have allowed these individuals to completely rehabilitate into society and reform. The failing was not the corrective training but the lack of any aftercare once released. In the military system once released they are immediately returned to their units who can then continue to reinforce the lessons learnt and support and assist in rehabilitation.

Can we say the same of our parole system?

I don't really aim my comments at the kind of offender who is drifting into a life of crime, these people generally murder children only as an accidental byproduct of a criminal lifestyle.
The few twisted souls currently incarcerated indefinately tend not to have drifted into their position but wilfully walked there.
I doubt the government would be able to manage a system in which the death penalty were an option and so in reality given a choice I would probably vote no.
However if given the legal right by society I would remove breathing rights from a few of them, not for the sake of revenge, or even from anger or outrage but from a position that their crimes deserve such a fate.

Whilst I agree in your specific areas I feel that you are missing the point that by effectively dealing with the minor offences early you can change the general levels of crime and thus engender a more lawful society. In this case serious crimes, such as those you specify, would be detected earlier, society would have a more open nature to assist the police and they would have greater resources to allocate to finding the perpetrators. Whilst this would not stop serious offenders it might limit the scope of their crimes. Also by making the prison system a more responsibility based system life for those who are so twisted that they cannot accept they hold any responsibility to their victims or society in general would be worse off within the prisons and thus face a much harder life than is currently the case. This would, I hope, fulfil the need of some to see a form of vengeance being carried out on the criminals.

Sorry I should have included that I fully agree with the stated methods as a far better way of managing the reduction in criminality within our society.
If we managed rehabilitation even poorly then yes a great many would be steered in the direction of a civilised life.
However we would always find some few who cause pain and suffering for pleasure rather than gain. I have met many kids who were en route to jail and seen a few steered back on course, however I only met one who chilled me and, before his 20th birthday he was in jail.
His crime, murder, for little or any motive was entirely too predictable.
Incidentally his father whose identity he was unaware of had died at an early age (19 I think) and was suspected of a similarly chilling crime.
This kind of flotsam will always be washed up occasionally regardless of how lawful our society becomes and I see no reason to incarcerate them for their lives.
Edited for numpty use of quoting

Edited by stitched on Wednesday 4th August 12:47

Whilst I can see your point, and I am not directing a personal attack it just seems that we both have an interest and I a enjoying the exchange, I am not sure that allowing those sort of perpetrators an easy out rather than forcing them to confront what they have done is the answer. I am sure, however, that allowing them to live out their natural lives in the relative comfort and enjoying privileges that I cannot afford, or are not able to enjoy such as when deployed on operations, is not the solution. Thus making prison harder for those who cannot accept their guilt and take no responsibility for their actions would be my preferred course of action. It is not inconceivable to imagine a system designed to force such a convict to undertake unpleasant or difficult tasks on behalf of society thus adding value or to utilise any special skills that they have to the greater benefit. If they did earn any financial reward then that should be put back into the system that houses and feeds them not used for personal gain. Of course if / when they acknowledge their crimes and start to accept responsibility / show remorse then they could earn privileges and start to have a somewhat easier life whilst still being incarcerated. This would appease my requirement to see justice and punishment but would allow some recourse for mistakes and real remorse / rehabilitation.

[stitched]

Actually I think I agree with every word you've written, if there is a possibility of reforming an individual and allowing them to take up their place in society then any and all means should be tried.
It's the occasional psychopath who has shown by their actions that it really is impossible to endanger society, especially children, with their prescence.
Incidentally I feel exactly the same about predatory paedophiles.
Have you seen the system they use in Egypt?
It's known there as re rearing and tries to remove the early conditioning and replace it.

[Hugo a Gogo]

in other news: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/79255...

[stitched]

Certainly feel no grief at his death, IIRC this filth was into little boys?
Just not comfortable with another reject from society being the instrument of his demise.