Got pulled for no insurance - Help!!
Discussion
saaby93 said:
Why is it we never get the full info in these forums 
You didnt say they handnt refunded you the full amount.
Surely that must play in your favour too?
Also I thought...
If theyve cancelled they refund the full amount
If you cancel they refund the full amount less admin if after 14 days
Blimey, sorry You didnt say they handnt refunded you the full amount.
Surely that must play in your favour too?
Also I thought...
If theyve cancelled they refund the full amount
If you cancel they refund the full amount less admin if after 14 days
skeeterm5 said:
Contacting ombudsman will achieve nothing at this point. Their role is to intervene only when the companies own complaint process has reached deadlock.
However, if I read the facts you are stating;
- you posted the required papers to the insurance company and the fact they didnt recieve them is their fault
- you didnt receive any notification from the insurers of it being cancelled, again their fault
- you had a clear payment into your bank account
Looks to me like you really dont have a leg to stand on, posting is not proof of receipt and you cant 'have your cake and eat it' in this respect.
The offence is binary, you either have it or you dont and I am sorry to say, you dont.
Your first action should now be a formal complaint to your insurance company.
S
My statement is that I posted the completed and signed declaration as requested and heard no more from them.However, if I read the facts you are stating;
- you posted the required papers to the insurance company and the fact they didnt recieve them is their fault
- you didnt receive any notification from the insurers of it being cancelled, again their fault
- you had a clear payment into your bank account
Looks to me like you really dont have a leg to stand on, posting is not proof of receipt and you cant 'have your cake and eat it' in this respect.
The offence is binary, you either have it or you dont and I am sorry to say, you dont.
Your first action should now be a formal complaint to your insurance company.
S
Subsequently 3 months into the insurance policy I have a certificate for I am stopped by the Police and given a FPN for driving without insurance.
It transpires that a major failing (amongst others) on the part of the insurers has occurred, namely that they couldn't confirm the details of my NCD on the 12th of January with my previous insurer, Equity Red Star. However on the 15th of April a man in a high street brokers gets these details over the telephone in a few minutes armed only with my name and address. This lack of 'proof of NCD' is the reason my insurance was cancelled. Could another failing be that these letters were never sent? And whether or not they were, no one thought it odd that they received no response to any of them and that maybe a phone call was a good idea. They freely admit that they made no attempt to contact me other than via these letters.
I have received no demands for return of the certificate unless it was in one of these letters, in which case further requests would surely have been made for its return since?
As for the returned fee I admit that not noticing was my failing here. However I don't keep a particularly close eye on my bank account (This will change now though). I don't think a deposit of £250 will cause big enough waves to make most people notice, especially where I have a job where it is not a fixed amount every week and can vary quite a bit.
But thanks for suggesting I complained to the company, I never thought of that
Edited by LikesBikes on Sunday 18th April 23:47
A Police Officer on another forum drew my attention to the Road Traffic Act 1988, particularly Rule 143 section (3) as highlighted.
RTA1988 said:
PART IV
Third-Party Liabilities
Compulsory insurance or security against third-party risks
143 Users of motor vehicles to be insured or secured against third-party risks .
(1) Subject to the provisions of this Part of this Act— .
(a) a person must not use a motor vehicle on a road unless there is in force in relation to the use of the vehicle by that person such a policy of insurance or such a security in respect of third party risks as complies with the requirements of this Part of this Act, and .
(b) a person must not cause or permit any other person to use a motor vehicle on a road unless there is in force in relation to the use of the vehicle by that other person such a policy of insurance or such a security in respect of third party risks as complies with the requirements of this Part of this Act. .
(2) If a person acts in contravention of subsection (1) above he is guilty of an offence.
(3) A person charged with using a motor vehicle in contravention of this section shall not be convicted if he proves—
(a) that the vehicle did not belong to him and was not in his possession under a contract of hiring or of loan.
(b) that he was using the vehicle in the course of his employment, and .
(c) that he neither knew nor had reason to believe that there was not in force in relation to the vehicle such a policy of insurance or security as is mentioned in subsection (1) above.
(4) This Part of this Act does not apply to invalid carriages. .
Third-Party Liabilities
Compulsory insurance or security against third-party risks
143 Users of motor vehicles to be insured or secured against third-party risks .
(1) Subject to the provisions of this Part of this Act— .
(a) a person must not use a motor vehicle on a road unless there is in force in relation to the use of the vehicle by that person such a policy of insurance or such a security in respect of third party risks as complies with the requirements of this Part of this Act, and .
(b) a person must not cause or permit any other person to use a motor vehicle on a road unless there is in force in relation to the use of the vehicle by that other person such a policy of insurance or such a security in respect of third party risks as complies with the requirements of this Part of this Act. .
(2) If a person acts in contravention of subsection (1) above he is guilty of an offence.
(3) A person charged with using a motor vehicle in contravention of this section shall not be convicted if he proves—
(a) that the vehicle did not belong to him and was not in his possession under a contract of hiring or of loan.
(b) that he was using the vehicle in the course of his employment, and .
(c) that he neither knew nor had reason to believe that there was not in force in relation to the vehicle such a policy of insurance or security as is mentioned in subsection (1) above.
(4) This Part of this Act does not apply to invalid carriages. .
Edited by LikesBikes on Monday 19th April 21:21
saaby93 said:
Did you see this thread today?
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Nope, reading through it now...http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
SS2. said:
LikesBikes said:
A Police Officer on another forum drew my attention to the Road Traffic Act 1988, particularly Rule 143 section (3) as highlighted.
RTA 1988 said:
(3) A person charged with using a motor vehicle in contravention of this section shall not be convicted if he proves—
(a) that the vehicle did not belong to him and was not in his possession under a contract of hiring or of loan,
(b) that he was using the vehicle in the course of his employment, and .
(c) that he neither knew nor had reason to believe that there was not in force in relation to the vehicle such a policy of insurance or security as is mentioned in subsection (1) above.
All 3 of those conditions require to be satisfied before that defence is applicable.(a) that the vehicle did not belong to him and was not in his possession under a contract of hiring or of loan,
(b) that he was using the vehicle in the course of his employment, and .
(c) that he neither knew nor had reason to believe that there was not in force in relation to the vehicle such a policy of insurance or security as is mentioned in subsection (1) above.
Edited by SS2. on Monday 19th April 21:27
The only similarity I see is that both of us would like the insurers to admit a mistake on their part and comfirmed we both would've been covered were it not for this mistake. I might be being a bit thick here but how does it help me?
However Hastings closed the shutters on me today. I rang Equity Red Star this morning, once this five minute call was over they cheerily agreed to send me a certificate of NCD for the previous 12 months. I told Hastings of this and they still say that no mistake was made on their part, they sought to get the NCD in the correct manner using the (correct) details I had provided and state that Equity Red Star had no record of me. They said they would send a letter confirming this, however they refused to provide me with any more. The one offered stating that the policy was cancelled through no fault of my own was offerd in error and is against their procedures apparently.
However Hastings closed the shutters on me today. I rang Equity Red Star this morning, once this five minute call was over they cheerily agreed to send me a certificate of NCD for the previous 12 months. I told Hastings of this and they still say that no mistake was made on their part, they sought to get the NCD in the correct manner using the (correct) details I had provided and state that Equity Red Star had no record of me. They said they would send a letter confirming this, however they refused to provide me with any more. The one offered stating that the policy was cancelled through no fault of my own was offerd in error and is against their procedures apparently.
Edited by LikesBikes on Tuesday 20th April 19:17
I also spoke to my Motorcycle insurers. They are providing me with correspondence stating my maximum NCD on bikes up to and in use for the current policy.
I am hoping that this and the five years NCD on cars will demonstrate I have a consistant insurance history.
Another thought:
A man has two vehicles, a '99 Ford Mondeo ST200 and an '05 Kawasaki ZX-12R. Both command a similar insurance premium.
The car is in use pretty much daily, including commuting to work in the week and transporting his family around at the weekend.
The bike used occasionally for S,D,P. Mainly at weekends.
If he was going to save money and/or hassle by deliberatly not bothering with insurance on one of them, which would a right minded person insure and which would he take a gamble on?
I am hoping that this and the five years NCD on cars will demonstrate I have a consistant insurance history.
Another thought:
A man has two vehicles, a '99 Ford Mondeo ST200 and an '05 Kawasaki ZX-12R. Both command a similar insurance premium.
The car is in use pretty much daily, including commuting to work in the week and transporting his family around at the weekend.
The bike used occasionally for S,D,P. Mainly at weekends.
If he was going to save money and/or hassle by deliberatly not bothering with insurance on one of them, which would a right minded person insure and which would he take a gamble on?
Edited by LikesBikes on Monday 19th April 22:19
Will try the letter to the CEO's office although I'm not so sure they'll care any more than those at the bottom. If I have no joy then I guess its just take the FPN or enter a guilty plea with mitigating circumstances. Still not sure if going to court will just land me with a worse deal when, as someone suggested, they "all have a good laugh" and throw the book at me.
Cheers all, Darren
Sorry, going through rapid positive/negative switches at the mo. You're probably right.
Going to sit down with an A4 pad and write everything down in correct order, including conversations with insurance people so that if I can find a solicitor who won't rape my wallet I won't miss anything out. Will keep looking in through the course of the evening, so still open to any comments or suggestions.
Many thanks
TVR1 said:
Maybe you should look up postal rules relating to contract law? IIRC Unusually and in most cases, acceptance takes place when you post the letter and not when received.
The letter is assumed to have arrived unless it can be proven that it didn't..... again IIRC these are the rules that Courts, Councils etc use when sending you a letter, summons etc. However these rules do work both ways....
If you fancy a bit of reading...I apologise in advance for the Wikipedia references but in this case they seem to offer a fairly concise summary.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adams_v_Lindsell
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunlop_v_Higgins
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_Fire_Insura...
lots and lots more of these if you go looking.
In fact, Household Fire v Grant is probably the most relevant-it is all in the Judgement Summary.
Oh...and where do I send my 'research' bill? £685.28p please
Will only pay if it helps my case The letter is assumed to have arrived unless it can be proven that it didn't..... again IIRC these are the rules that Courts, Councils etc use when sending you a letter, summons etc. However these rules do work both ways....
If you fancy a bit of reading...I apologise in advance for the Wikipedia references but in this case they seem to offer a fairly concise summary.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adams_v_Lindsell
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunlop_v_Higgins
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_Fire_Insura...
lots and lots more of these if you go looking.
In fact, Household Fire v Grant is probably the most relevant-it is all in the Judgement Summary.
Oh...and where do I send my 'research' bill? £685.28p please
just read it this evening after getting up at 3am so not sure if it does or not. Will read it again when I'm more awake 
However if posting is enough to complete the contract (or cancellation of the contract in this case), surely some proof of posting would be necessary? Hastings claim that their computer says so and that is proof enough. I however would dispute this.
Something else has occurred. Phoned the brokers for my motorcycle insurance on Monday asking for a letter confirming my NCD for bikes to demonstrate 10 years continuous insurance in my case. This arrived today and something that I'd forgotten was in the details. My current bike policy is underwritten by none other than Equity Red Star. Hastings claimed that ERS could find no record of me from any of my details but I have had two policies with them over the last twelve months, one of them still current.
I appreciate that the court is probably not interested as to the reasons for cancellation, however something is clearly not right in Hastings version of events regarding these inquiries to ERS. This surely assists in my suggestion that their version of events for the whole story (including the letters) are questionable?
Or am I grabbing at straws? As before looking forward to your thoughts.
Cheers again, continue to appreciate the help so far from you all.
Darren.
Obviously payment will be less certain charges TVR1
Thats how I understood it but wanted it confirmed in case I was barking up the wrong tree.
As for not noticing the partial refund, I have no excuse as I said before. I am guilty of not keeping a closer eye on my finances and have been for several years, however for what it's worth I would say that £250 does not necessarily create a big enough splash to make someone take notice.
So when I return the FPN saying I wish to go to court and they send me an appearance date, do I have to attend to request an adjournment or can I send a letter beforehand for this?
Many thanks, continue to appreciate the assistance of you all.
Darren.
Hi again all. Not posted for a while as nothing further to report, a letter was sent to the CEO but no response as yet. Considering a follow up letter and/or a phonecall.
However today I received a surprise letter from Hastings which reads as follows:
I've already contacted them on the number given however was held in a queue, decided to hang up and see if anyone here has any ideas before I ring them in the morning.
Needless to say I have no intention of cashing this cheque before I know what it's for!
It got me thinking though and I decided to double check the amounts paid and refunded and have found a discrepancy:
My original premium was £308.51 + IPT of £15.43 totalling £323.94, this is the amount paid by myself via a debit card. According to the copy of the allegedly sent cancellation letter, my refund was less £45 charges resulting in "£253.20 inclusive of IPT at 5%"
£323.94
- £ 15.43 IPT at 5%
- £ 45.00 Charges
= £263.51
This leaves £10.31 adrift, I'm not optimistic enough to think this means the insurance is still valid and as such I was covered but I'm curious as to what I've missed in the arithmetic. Surely I don't have to pay tax on a refund? Please feel free to correct my maths if I have worked something out wrong here.
Cheers once again all,
Darren.
However today I received a surprise letter from Hastings which reads as follows:
It said:
Dear Sir/Madam,
Policy/Reference Number XXXXXXX
Further to your recent communication with our Customer Relations Department, please find your cheque attached.
If you would like to discuss your complaint further, please do not hesitate to contact our Customer Relations Department on 01424 XXX XXX.
Yours Faithfully,
Hastings Group Payments
Sure enough a cheque for £15.00 is included. At no point has this money been mentioned in any communication between Hastings and myself so I am at a loss as to what its for?Policy/Reference Number XXXXXXX
Further to your recent communication with our Customer Relations Department, please find your cheque attached.
If you would like to discuss your complaint further, please do not hesitate to contact our Customer Relations Department on 01424 XXX XXX.
Yours Faithfully,
Hastings Group Payments
I've already contacted them on the number given however was held in a queue, decided to hang up and see if anyone here has any ideas before I ring them in the morning.
Needless to say I have no intention of cashing this cheque before I know what it's for!
It got me thinking though and I decided to double check the amounts paid and refunded and have found a discrepancy:
My original premium was £308.51 + IPT of £15.43 totalling £323.94, this is the amount paid by myself via a debit card. According to the copy of the allegedly sent cancellation letter, my refund was less £45 charges resulting in "£253.20 inclusive of IPT at 5%"
£323.94
- £ 15.43 IPT at 5%
- £ 45.00 Charges
= £263.51
This leaves £10.31 adrift, I'm not optimistic enough to think this means the insurance is still valid and as such I was covered but I'm curious as to what I've missed in the arithmetic. Surely I don't have to pay tax on a refund? Please feel free to correct my maths if I have worked something out wrong here.
Cheers once again all,
Darren.
Edited by LikesBikes on Monday 10th May 19:54
saaby93 said:
Do you think youre not guilty because as yet they still havent cancelled your insurance?
Thats exactly what I think 
Returned the FPN the other day to request the case be heard in court, so just waiting for a date now.
Incidentally, today they told me the cheque for £15 was to cover my costs in telephone calls. I find it strange they felt the need to reimburse these costs to someone they no longer consider to be a customer. Especially when they regard that would be 'ex-customer' as bleating on about a situation of his own making?
Cheers all,
Darren.
An update:
After an exchange of letters between Hastings Direct and myself decided it was about time to update you all.
On the 23rd of June I finally received a response from Hastings Direct, this letter was dated June 7th, so it took over a fortnight to reach me?
The content of this letter was somewhat predictable, they still maintain Equity Red Star had no record of my policy with them despite me telling them I had contacted ERS and received confirmation from them. Still no proof of posting these letters other than their computer records.
One point that did stand out was that in fact they did receive my NCD declaration! However apparently they didn't receive this until the 8th of February, 3 days after they cancelled the policy.
Beyond that it says nothing other than to apologise for my 'inconvenience' and the usual "thanks for my input" bull.
My response to this was a letter sent on the 30th of June to inquire about several points in this letter:
On Tuesday I received a letter dated September 8th, which I have quoted verbatim other than my details:
They say that they have no facility for email or SMS, but that does not explain the lack of telephone calls.
Ignores the request as to explain the reasons regarding the length of time to receive the letter.
Completely ignores the question as to why the policy was not reinstated when they received the documents prior to making their partial refund. And also as to why I was initially told this was never received?
Ignores the request of an explanation of how they failed to get the necessary information from Equity Red Star when I had no problem?
Also ignores the inquiry about the £15 reimbursement for telephone calls.
Whilst composing a response letter in my head this week to write up over the weekend, this morning I finally received the summons asking me to appear on October 1st.
Really struggling now whether to plead not guilty or guilty with exceptional circumstances? I have to respond within seven days and cannot afford to consult a solicitor so any advice, as always, is greatly appreciated.
Cheers all
Darren.
After an exchange of letters between Hastings Direct and myself decided it was about time to update you all.
On the 23rd of June I finally received a response from Hastings Direct, this letter was dated June 7th, so it took over a fortnight to reach me?
The content of this letter was somewhat predictable, they still maintain Equity Red Star had no record of my policy with them despite me telling them I had contacted ERS and received confirmation from them. Still no proof of posting these letters other than their computer records.
One point that did stand out was that in fact they did receive my NCD declaration! However apparently they didn't receive this until the 8th of February, 3 days after they cancelled the policy.
Beyond that it says nothing other than to apologise for my 'inconvenience' and the usual "thanks for my input" bull.
My response to this was a letter sent on the 30th of June to inquire about several points in this letter:
- Why it took so long to receive this letter, as I felt it highlighted the inefficiencies of their postal system?
- Why the policy was still cancelled once the PoNCD was received, bearing in mind that they allege to have received it some time before the refund was made? Particularly as the cancellation contravened their terms and conditions in that I had not received written confirmation of the cancellation until after I was stopped and also that the T and C's made no mention of certificates being issued subject to satisfactory proof of NCD. Also as to why representatives of Hastings Direct had stated several times previously that it had Never been received?
- Why there was no explanation of how Hastings failed to get proof of NCD from Equity Red Star despite proof that they had a full record of me on two different vehicles in the previous twelve months?
- Why Hastings Direct felt the need to reimburse me, as a non-customer, the sum of £15 for my phone calls when they claim this is all a problem of my own doing?
On Tuesday I received a letter dated September 8th, which I have quoted verbatim other than my details:
Hastings Letter said:
Dear Mr ........
Thank you for your further letter, regarding my response to your recent complaint. I have had the opportunity to review my file and would like to respond.
I understand you remain unhappy that there is no evidence other than our records to show that the letters were issued by us to confirm the cancellation of the insurance policy. Further more, you have advised that you are unhappy that we are unable to offer to reinstate your policy and that you were not contacted via e-mail, telephone or SMS.
While I understand that you are unhappy with the advice that I have given in my letter, I can confirm that our records show that the letters sent to you on the 12th and 24th of January 2010 were successfully issued to you. As we do not issue these by recorded delivery or registered post, we are unable to provide you with the confirmation that you are looking for.
We do not have the facility at the current time to send e-mails or SMS messages regarding policies however our policy booklet does confirm that we will correspond in writing to your last known address. I have enclosed the appropriate section of the policy booklet, for your records. The certificate of insurance is issued when the policy is purchased and is not issued subject to confirmation of No Claims Bonus. The fact that you are in possession of a Certificate of Insurance is not necessarily confirmation that you are covered, as the policy needs to be active in order for indemnity to be provided.
Regarding the fine from the FSA which you have referred to in your letter, this was regarding the cancellation policies due to an error in the rates used by a specific underwriter, and not due to the failure to return documentation relating to a policy. As this is a different situation to your own, this is not an issue that I have had to consider when responding to your complaint.
In conclusion, while I understand that you remain unhappy with the service that you have received, the correct procedure was followed prior to cancelling your policy and I am unable to consider your request for indemnity on this occasion.
I am sorry for the inconvenience that has been caused and hope that you find my explanation helpful. If you wish to discuss your complaint further, please do not hesitate to contact me directly. Alternatively, if you do remain dissatisfied with our actual handling of your complaint or indeed the outcome, you are entitled to refer your case to the Financial Onbudsman Service. Should you wish to do this, you must do so within 6 months from the date of this letter. i have enclosed a leaflet that provides you with some further details of the Financial Ombudsman Service and their contact details in case you do decide to contact them.
Finally, thank you for taking the time to tell us about your experience, we are very grateful for the feedback you have already given us and I can assure you this will be put to good use in helping us to improve our service.
Yours sincerely
Andy Annandale-Johnston
Customer Relations Representative
Hastings Direct
01424 739338 ext. 4813
I feel this response ignores several issues I had raised (in the bullet points above). Thank you for your further letter, regarding my response to your recent complaint. I have had the opportunity to review my file and would like to respond.
I understand you remain unhappy that there is no evidence other than our records to show that the letters were issued by us to confirm the cancellation of the insurance policy. Further more, you have advised that you are unhappy that we are unable to offer to reinstate your policy and that you were not contacted via e-mail, telephone or SMS.
While I understand that you are unhappy with the advice that I have given in my letter, I can confirm that our records show that the letters sent to you on the 12th and 24th of January 2010 were successfully issued to you. As we do not issue these by recorded delivery or registered post, we are unable to provide you with the confirmation that you are looking for.
We do not have the facility at the current time to send e-mails or SMS messages regarding policies however our policy booklet does confirm that we will correspond in writing to your last known address. I have enclosed the appropriate section of the policy booklet, for your records. The certificate of insurance is issued when the policy is purchased and is not issued subject to confirmation of No Claims Bonus. The fact that you are in possession of a Certificate of Insurance is not necessarily confirmation that you are covered, as the policy needs to be active in order for indemnity to be provided.
Regarding the fine from the FSA which you have referred to in your letter, this was regarding the cancellation policies due to an error in the rates used by a specific underwriter, and not due to the failure to return documentation relating to a policy. As this is a different situation to your own, this is not an issue that I have had to consider when responding to your complaint.
In conclusion, while I understand that you remain unhappy with the service that you have received, the correct procedure was followed prior to cancelling your policy and I am unable to consider your request for indemnity on this occasion.
I am sorry for the inconvenience that has been caused and hope that you find my explanation helpful. If you wish to discuss your complaint further, please do not hesitate to contact me directly. Alternatively, if you do remain dissatisfied with our actual handling of your complaint or indeed the outcome, you are entitled to refer your case to the Financial Onbudsman Service. Should you wish to do this, you must do so within 6 months from the date of this letter. i have enclosed a leaflet that provides you with some further details of the Financial Ombudsman Service and their contact details in case you do decide to contact them.
Finally, thank you for taking the time to tell us about your experience, we are very grateful for the feedback you have already given us and I can assure you this will be put to good use in helping us to improve our service.
Yours sincerely
Andy Annandale-Johnston
Customer Relations Representative
Hastings Direct
01424 739338 ext. 4813
They say that they have no facility for email or SMS, but that does not explain the lack of telephone calls.
Ignores the request as to explain the reasons regarding the length of time to receive the letter.
Completely ignores the question as to why the policy was not reinstated when they received the documents prior to making their partial refund. And also as to why I was initially told this was never received?
Ignores the request of an explanation of how they failed to get the necessary information from Equity Red Star when I had no problem?
Also ignores the inquiry about the £15 reimbursement for telephone calls.
Whilst composing a response letter in my head this week to write up over the weekend, this morning I finally received the summons asking me to appear on October 1st.
Really struggling now whether to plead not guilty or guilty with exceptional circumstances? I have to respond within seven days and cannot afford to consult a solicitor so any advice, as always, is greatly appreciated.
Cheers all
Darren.
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