Left a £500 deposit at Ford- Dealer says non-refundable.
Discussion
b19rak said:
Always pay it over the phone, distance selling rules apply. By law, you can get it back.
Wrong.b19rak said:
If you buy your car over the phone, again the rules apply and within a certain period you could return the car for a full refund.
Also wrong. Unless the dealer typically sells cars at a distance and has systems set up to do it.b19rak said:
Always pay it over the phone, distance selling rules apply. By law, you can get it back.
If you buy your car over the phone, again the rules apply and within a certain period you could return the car for a full refund.
It is only a distance contract if carried out at distance. If you had driven the car and merely left the deposit over the phone it would not be a distance contract and no cooling off period.If you buy your car over the phone, again the rules apply and within a certain period you could return the car for a full refund.
Deva Link said:
markmullen said:
It is only a distance contract if carried out at distance. If you had driven the car and merely left the deposit over the phone it would not be a distance contract and no cooling off period.
Distance selling regulations don't apply for the odd ad-hoc distance sale.There is nothing in it at all which specifies a minimum number of distance sales for a company to have to comply with the law.
Can you link something to support that?
JustinP1 said:
I am genuinely interested with that interpretation of the Distance Selling Regs.
There is nothing in it at all which specifies a minimum number of distance sales for a company to have to comply with the law.
Can you link something to support that?
It's not the number of sales, but there has to be an organised system for distance selling. Of course there's no exact definition of that, so like most consumer legislation, it's a complete nightmare for the consumer to enforce.There is nothing in it at all which specifies a minimum number of distance sales for a company to have to comply with the law.
Can you link something to support that?
"If I generally do not sell by distance means do the DSRs
apply to orders I sometimes get by email, phone or fax?
2.14 If you normally do business with consumers face-to-face, the DSRs
are unlikely to apply to an occasional order that you take in these
ways."
http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/business_leaflets...
I would suggest that if a dealer took a deposit over the phone with the car unseen it would be refundable in the case of the car not being as described, but not refundable for other reasons.
If you agreed on the car, test drove it etc, but then phones in the deposit the next day then it wouldn’t be distance selling.
If you agreed on the car, test drove it etc, but then phones in the deposit the next day then it wouldn’t be distance selling.
Deva Link said:
JustinP1 said:
I am genuinely interested with that interpretation of the Distance Selling Regs.
There is nothing in it at all which specifies a minimum number of distance sales for a company to have to comply with the law.
Can you link something to support that?
It's not the number of sales, but there has to be an organised system for distance selling. Of course there's no exact definition of that, so like most consumer legislation, it's a complete nightmare for the consumer to enforce.There is nothing in it at all which specifies a minimum number of distance sales for a company to have to comply with the law.
Can you link something to support that?
"If I generally do not sell by distance means do the DSRs
apply to orders I sometimes get by email, phone or fax?
2.14 If you normally do business with consumers face-to-face, the DSRs
are unlikely to apply to an occasional order that you take in these
ways."
http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/business_leaflets...
From my understanding and reading of it, the DSRs referred to 'organised' sales by distance. However, as you have mentioned what is organised is on a 'case by case' basis, one of those indicators being whether standard terms are sent.
I would suggest that the interpretation in this particular scenario would come down to how the deposit was taken. If it was merely a telephone call, and card details taken - as you have said the DSRs would not apply.
However, let's say for example that the dealer after the phone call supplied standard written details and terms about the sale via email and bank details for the deposit to be taken, then this would be classified as an 'organised' sale and the DSRs would supply.
Ironically in this particular situation (one in which I am reasonably sure that the DSRs were not specifically intended for), it would actually be beneficial for the dealer NOT to supply written terms.
JustinP1 said:
...However, let's say for example that the dealer after the phone call supplied standard written details and terms about the sale via email and bank details for the deposit to be taken, then this would be classified as an 'organised' sale and the DSRs would supply...
The sale needs to be part of an organised scheme rather than just an organised sale.“distance contract” means any contract concerning goods or services concluded between a supplier and a consumer under an organised distance sales or service provision scheme run by the supplier who, for the purpose of the contract, makes exclusive use of one or more means of distance communication up to and including the moment at which the contract is concluded
Zeeky said:
JustinP1 said:
...However, let's say for example that the dealer after the phone call supplied standard written details and terms about the sale via email and bank details for the deposit to be taken, then this would be classified as an 'organised' sale and the DSRs would supply...
The sale needs to be part of an organised scheme rather than just an organised sale.“distance contract” means any contract concerning goods or services concluded between a supplier and a consumer under an organised distance sales or service provision scheme run by the supplier who, for the purpose of the contract, makes exclusive use of one or more means of distance communication up to and including the moment at which the contract is concluded
In this specific case, should the car dealer be ready to take a deposit over distance, he emails standard terms, and payment is made accordingly, that would then be classed as a scheme for doing this.
Zeeky said:
It would be stretching the ordinary definition of the word 'scheme' if one sale could be classed as a scheme in itself.
Not at all - the key point is the supply of standard terms. This is something specifically referred to by the OFT as an indicator of a sale that would be covered by the DSRs.Then it must be argued that if a dealer has such a system in place where they receive interest in taking a deposit over the internet or by phone, and they reply with standards terms and a method of these being accepted and for the customer to make payment, this is a scheme as much as any other.
I am not getting the question at all. A deposit after you have seen the car is just that. I've changed my mind doesn't come into it. I took a £250 deposit last year on a sale, they pulled out I kept the deposit, it went towards re advertising and my time - which does have a value. I would personally ask for it back, if the answer was no then move on and make 100% sure next time.
I would have thought scheme would refer to a system being in place to deal with distance selling rather than relying on the frequency or number of transactions done in that way.
After all, I would have thought the purpose of the distance selling rules would be to protect people who did not have chance to take a proper look at the goods or service before making a commitment to buy. There aren't many commitments bigger than the purchase of a car. That may create other questions, such as why would you buy something as important and expensive as a car without first seeing it, of course.
After all, I would have thought the purpose of the distance selling rules would be to protect people who did not have chance to take a proper look at the goods or service before making a commitment to buy. There aren't many commitments bigger than the purchase of a car. That may create other questions, such as why would you buy something as important and expensive as a car without first seeing it, of course.
I had a £1k deposit on a new M3 which I had on order and waited 11 months for.When car arrived they offered me a pittance for my trade in (no change for a BMW dealership there) so decided to leave it and was told that I would get deposit back once they had sold the car!
Many weeks went by and no refund,but the car had been sold but customer was waiting for new reg date (a little bird at the dealers told me this) so in I strolled to be met be dealer principal saying once it's sold you will get your money!
I told him there was a change of plan and I would take the car and could he get it ready for me as soon as possible.
The look on his face and the funny noises coming out his mouth were priceless,lots of bulls
t later the cheque was in my hand!
Many weeks went by and no refund,but the car had been sold but customer was waiting for new reg date (a little bird at the dealers told me this) so in I strolled to be met be dealer principal saying once it's sold you will get your money!
I told him there was a change of plan and I would take the car and could he get it ready for me as soon as possible.
The look on his face and the funny noises coming out his mouth were priceless,lots of bulls
t later the cheque was in my hand!JustinP1 said:
Not at all - the key point is the supply of standard terms. This is something specifically referred to by the OFT as an indicator of a sale that would be covered by the DSRs.
That is a necessary but not sufficient requirement for the Regs to apply. It doesn't help us in defining "an organised distance sales scheme" It is inevitably confusing to attempt to interpret the OFT's guidelines which are in themselves an interpretation of the regulations. The law is in the regs not the guidance.JustinP1 said:
Then it must be argued that if a dealer has such a system in place where they receive interest in taking a deposit over the internet or by phone, and they reply with standards terms and a method of these being accepted and for the customer to make payment, this is a scheme as much as any other.
Where they have a system in place for distance selling then they probably do fall within the definition. The fact that the seller has managed to conduct a sale at a distance doesn't mean he has a system in place to do so. Ad hoc sales do not have to follow any system, or more accurately "an organised distance sales scheme"If the regulations required any sale that had the characteristics of a 'distance' sale to be subject to them then the use of the term "an organised distance sales scheme" appears superfluous.
It appears to me that it is clear that the definition requires more than simply an individual sale having the characteristics of a 'distance' sale.
Zeeky said:
JustinP1 said:
Not at all - the key point is the supply of standard terms. This is something specifically referred to by the OFT as an indicator of a sale that would be covered by the DSRs.
That is a necessary but not sufficient requirement for the Regs to apply. It doesn't help us in defining "an organised distance sales scheme" It is inevitably confusing to attempt to interpret the OFT's guidelines which are in themselves an interpretation of the regulations. The law is in the regs not the guidance.JustinP1 said:
Then it must be argued that if a dealer has such a system in place where they receive interest in taking a deposit over the internet or by phone, and they reply with standards terms and a method of these being accepted and for the customer to make payment, this is a scheme as much as any other.
Where they have a system in place for distance selling then they probably do fall within the definition. The fact that the seller has managed to conduct a sale at a distance doesn't mean he has a system in place to do so. Ad hoc sales do not have to follow any system, or more accurately "an organised distance sales scheme"If the regulations required any sale that had the characteristics of a 'distance' sale to be subject to them then the use of the term "an organised distance sales scheme" appears superfluous.
It appears to me that it is clear that the definition requires more than simply an individual sale having the characteristics of a 'distance' sale.
What we are doing now is trying to place where as far as I know an untested legal area where a line is drawn.
What seems logical from the statute is that it is not intended to apply to *all* sales at distance. That's clear. Then you have to consider what is defined by a 'scheme'.
Clearly if you call a dealer and give him your card details for a deposit then he has no scheme in place, as he has not employed it. DSRs do not apply.
Logically though, a scheme can be valid and must be in place for it to be in use, even on the first occasion. So, if the dealer responds to the call by not accepting the deposit until he has supplied written terms for distance sales or deposit taking, then I do think it would be hard to argue that this is not a scheme to facilitate distance selling - regardless of whether this is the first distance sale, or he only does one a year.
That to me is the key point at where the DSRs apply.
Robsti said:
I had a £1k deposit on a new M3 which I had on order and waited 11 months for.When car arrived they offered me a pittance for my trade in (no change for a BMW dealership there) so decided to leave it and was told that I would get deposit back once they had sold the car!
Many weeks went by and no refund,but the car had been sold but customer was waiting for new reg date (a little bird at the dealers told me this) so in I strolled to be met be dealer principal saying once it's sold you will get your money!
I told him there was a change of plan and I would take the car and could he get it ready for me as soon as possible.
The look on his face and the funny noises coming out his mouth were priceless,lots of bullst later the cheque was in my hand!
Had you not agreed a PX price when you ordered?Many weeks went by and no refund,but the car had been sold but customer was waiting for new reg date (a little bird at the dealers told me this) so in I strolled to be met be dealer principal saying once it's sold you will get your money!
I told him there was a change of plan and I would take the car and could he get it ready for me as soon as possible.
The look on his face and the funny noises coming out his mouth were priceless,lots of bulls
t later the cheque was in my hand!Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff