Police Memorial day
Discussion
Devil2575 said:
Carinaman is just as big a nutter as Vodkalolly. I don't even bother reading his posts these days as they're just the irrellevant ramblings of a crazy person 
Harsh. But fair.I take a dim view of people wearing uniforms, insignia or medals they are not entitled to at any official event.
The guy shouldn't have done it.
XCP said:
What the hell are you on ?
This discussion is about honouring officers who gave their lives. Both in peacetime and war. It is not an excuse to air your feeble minded ramblings. There are plenty of more appropriate avenues open for you to do that.
If you haven't got anything sensible to contribute can I suggest that, with all due respect, you just shut the f
k up.
Thank You.
Hear bloody hear. This discussion is about honouring officers who gave their lives. Both in peacetime and war. It is not an excuse to air your feeble minded ramblings. There are plenty of more appropriate avenues open for you to do that.
If you haven't got anything sensible to contribute can I suggest that, with all due respect, you just shut the f
k up.Thank You.
Hang on.
It's a discussion thread. There are several comments from BiB or former BiB criticising Winsor for wearing that uniform, and how it's insensitive.
It wasn't me that took the thread off towards Winsor and his chosen attire.
I looked at a couple of other sources, partially as I wanted to see what he looked like in the uniform. I didn't know what the uniform looked like.
Didn't someone from the police say in the articles that the day at Cardiff was about remembering police officers and not an opportunity to point score for Winsor's choice of wardrobe? But that's not an opportunity to missed by some here it seems.
Winsor is involved with reforming the police. I thought this police college that covered ethics with regular resttesting, a bit like the fitness tests, were part of that. It now seems that that establishment teaching ethics to the police is to be paid for by officers themselves. That could make it seem that those elected representatives that say they're reforming the police aren't taking it seriously if officers have to pay for their own membership of that establishment.
Someone cited HRH Prince Charles as someone that does the ceremonial uniform with better taste.
Remember he had some personal phone call eavesdropped by, or at the behest of, the tablod press? Was it to his mistress, or was he single then?
Where am I going there?
Well the Leveson Inquiry and the rather narrow focus that's got and how it may lead to further regulation of the press and media. So we got to Leveson as the police couldn't or wouldn't use existing legislation covering the misuse of telecommunications and some were actually selling information to the press for a fee.
Leveson didn't look at a serving BiB using police computers to try to get details to sell about Gordon Brown's bank account.
Was it Redknapp senior that got raided for bungs and/or tax in an early morning raid that just happened to have the press lined up outside at the time? I could have my facts wrong on that one, so I am prepared to retract it if necessary.
So the police have failed for whatever reason to deal with the press when they had the tools in the box and been taking money from the press in return for leads and information. How was that relationship with the press expoloited with the Andrew MITCHELL handbags at the gate incident?
The police have been known to control or try to control the press. Look at the IPCC saying Channel 4 news couldn't show footage of the Tomlinson shove, after the police said 'There's no CCTV footage of it'? Didn't Somerset and Avon get a bit petty over the coverage of the Jo Yeats murder after some in the press criticised the investigation?
Don't the press keep the authorities and police honest?
Help expose their failures and lies?
It was the press that got Levi Bellfield's conviction for Milly Dowler.
So is press control a good idea? Is press control ethical?
'If you've done nothing wrong, you've nothing to hide?'
Haven't the press been used to air grumblings about Winsor's uniform, just as they were to stitch up Andrew MITCHELL?
You've said the head of the HMIC should be ex-police as they 'get it'?
Some would say that they shouldn't be ex-BiB for the sake of being a new broom and impartiality. Chinese walls, and demilitarised zones?
Max Mosley was on about teams of forensics accountants to be swapped around the F1 teams to ensure that the teams stuck to the budget limits and wanted them rotated to ensure they didn't go 'native' and lose imprtiality or be corrupted. It's no different from the head of the HMIC not being ex-BiB.
You've suggested Otter could have been a good candidate to head the HMIC.
He was with Devon and Cornwall in the late noughties, so he was around while the investigation into the associates of Goad was being zoomed in and sat on. How many years was that investigation sat on?
There was one Detective Constable that wasn't happy with leads and vistiims being largely ignored allowing those sexually abusing kids to get away with it. That officer went to the press.
So where does the Detective Constable that said 'This aint right' and contacted the BBC and those that sat on the investigation and 'mislaid' the policy book explaining why they didn't follow every lead sit with the 'police family'?
You're concerned about Winsor's get up and reforms. I am more worried about those crimes being turned a blind eye to. I'm more worried about how many more victims that decision has made.
It's not good press is it? Not Asian lads, or people from Pakistan or people of a particular religion targetting young girls in childrens homes, but police officers looking the other way and losing evidence on people sexually abusing and exploiting young boys.
Was it Otter's predecessor there that met with people from the Home Office to be asked to lobby MPs on which way to vote on Gordon Brown's political point scoring on who can be seen to be hardest on terrorism with 42 days detention of terrorists suspects? The vote he won by doing a deal on water rates in Ulster?
There you go, another good reason why the head of the HMIC shouldn't be ex-BiB.
A non-BiB head of the HMIC means they'll have no inconvenient cases in their history to come out and haunt them? They may also be less likely to have mates and contacts in the police constabularies they're trying to regulate. Conflicts of interest?
I've linked that paedophile cover up case to your suggested potential head of the HMIC? It's no different from milking Andrew MITCHELL muttering something under his breath is it?
PCs Bone and Hughes? Maybe if those gangs in Manchester had been dealt with earlier? I don't know how tolerating or ignoring those gangs in Manchester sits with the point made by the head of Cleveland police mooting whether the war on drugs isn't working and that there were 43 groups peddling drugs in his area that they knew about?
And those seeking to smear Andrew MITCHELL weren't opportunistic in harnessing the public grief at the killing of PCs Bone and Hughes were they?
If the police want public buy in and respect, perhaps they should do their job, stop playing politics and stop covering up criminals and their own failures.
And sorting out their housekeeping and backing up evidence. Floppy disks have been around for a while you know.
It's a discussion thread. There are several comments from BiB or former BiB criticising Winsor for wearing that uniform, and how it's insensitive.
It wasn't me that took the thread off towards Winsor and his chosen attire.
I looked at a couple of other sources, partially as I wanted to see what he looked like in the uniform. I didn't know what the uniform looked like.
Didn't someone from the police say in the articles that the day at Cardiff was about remembering police officers and not an opportunity to point score for Winsor's choice of wardrobe? But that's not an opportunity to missed by some here it seems.
Winsor is involved with reforming the police. I thought this police college that covered ethics with regular resttesting, a bit like the fitness tests, were part of that. It now seems that that establishment teaching ethics to the police is to be paid for by officers themselves. That could make it seem that those elected representatives that say they're reforming the police aren't taking it seriously if officers have to pay for their own membership of that establishment.
Someone cited HRH Prince Charles as someone that does the ceremonial uniform with better taste.
Remember he had some personal phone call eavesdropped by, or at the behest of, the tablod press? Was it to his mistress, or was he single then?
Where am I going there?
Well the Leveson Inquiry and the rather narrow focus that's got and how it may lead to further regulation of the press and media. So we got to Leveson as the police couldn't or wouldn't use existing legislation covering the misuse of telecommunications and some were actually selling information to the press for a fee.
Leveson didn't look at a serving BiB using police computers to try to get details to sell about Gordon Brown's bank account.
Was it Redknapp senior that got raided for bungs and/or tax in an early morning raid that just happened to have the press lined up outside at the time? I could have my facts wrong on that one, so I am prepared to retract it if necessary.
So the police have failed for whatever reason to deal with the press when they had the tools in the box and been taking money from the press in return for leads and information. How was that relationship with the press expoloited with the Andrew MITCHELL handbags at the gate incident?
The police have been known to control or try to control the press. Look at the IPCC saying Channel 4 news couldn't show footage of the Tomlinson shove, after the police said 'There's no CCTV footage of it'? Didn't Somerset and Avon get a bit petty over the coverage of the Jo Yeats murder after some in the press criticised the investigation?
Don't the press keep the authorities and police honest?
Help expose their failures and lies?
It was the press that got Levi Bellfield's conviction for Milly Dowler.
So is press control a good idea? Is press control ethical?
'If you've done nothing wrong, you've nothing to hide?'
Haven't the press been used to air grumblings about Winsor's uniform, just as they were to stitch up Andrew MITCHELL?
You've said the head of the HMIC should be ex-police as they 'get it'?
Some would say that they shouldn't be ex-BiB for the sake of being a new broom and impartiality. Chinese walls, and demilitarised zones?
Max Mosley was on about teams of forensics accountants to be swapped around the F1 teams to ensure that the teams stuck to the budget limits and wanted them rotated to ensure they didn't go 'native' and lose imprtiality or be corrupted. It's no different from the head of the HMIC not being ex-BiB.
You've suggested Otter could have been a good candidate to head the HMIC.
He was with Devon and Cornwall in the late noughties, so he was around while the investigation into the associates of Goad was being zoomed in and sat on. How many years was that investigation sat on?
There was one Detective Constable that wasn't happy with leads and vistiims being largely ignored allowing those sexually abusing kids to get away with it. That officer went to the press.
So where does the Detective Constable that said 'This aint right' and contacted the BBC and those that sat on the investigation and 'mislaid' the policy book explaining why they didn't follow every lead sit with the 'police family'?
You're concerned about Winsor's get up and reforms. I am more worried about those crimes being turned a blind eye to. I'm more worried about how many more victims that decision has made.
It's not good press is it? Not Asian lads, or people from Pakistan or people of a particular religion targetting young girls in childrens homes, but police officers looking the other way and losing evidence on people sexually abusing and exploiting young boys.
Was it Otter's predecessor there that met with people from the Home Office to be asked to lobby MPs on which way to vote on Gordon Brown's political point scoring on who can be seen to be hardest on terrorism with 42 days detention of terrorists suspects? The vote he won by doing a deal on water rates in Ulster?
There you go, another good reason why the head of the HMIC shouldn't be ex-BiB.
A non-BiB head of the HMIC means they'll have no inconvenient cases in their history to come out and haunt them? They may also be less likely to have mates and contacts in the police constabularies they're trying to regulate. Conflicts of interest?
I've linked that paedophile cover up case to your suggested potential head of the HMIC? It's no different from milking Andrew MITCHELL muttering something under his breath is it?
PCs Bone and Hughes? Maybe if those gangs in Manchester had been dealt with earlier? I don't know how tolerating or ignoring those gangs in Manchester sits with the point made by the head of Cleveland police mooting whether the war on drugs isn't working and that there were 43 groups peddling drugs in his area that they knew about?
And those seeking to smear Andrew MITCHELL weren't opportunistic in harnessing the public grief at the killing of PCs Bone and Hughes were they?
If the police want public buy in and respect, perhaps they should do their job, stop playing politics and stop covering up criminals and their own failures.
And sorting out their housekeeping and backing up evidence. Floppy disks have been around for a while you know.
Edited by carinaman on Tuesday 1st October 12:39
You're ex-BiB, you'd have known better than me that it would get dragged off towards the uniform issue.
Was it Red 4, or Elroy Blue that called me a disgrace as I have to think about wearing a Poppy? I wasn't offended.
I know someone that got an award for what they did in Afghanistan.
I find Remembrance Day difficult to stomach. We can't change what happened in the past, but we can change how we treat service men and former service men today. The way compensation to those that returned from Afghanistan and Iraq was quibbled over offends me deeply. You pays your money and takes the choice. I find it inconsistent and hypocritical. The government wanted us behind the military while then doing all they can to save money when dealing with the wounded and severance pay and pensions. It's not done in my name. I didn't vote for that.
We can't alter WW1 or WW2, that's history. We can change how we treat servicemen and women today.
'Military convenant'? Just another empty soundbite like 'Police reform' isn't it.
£74M wasted on Tamiflu going out of date because the NHS can't manage inventory? That Egyptian bloke that broke the neck of that ballet dancer in Cardiff can't be deported due to his human rights.
There's much i don't buy into. It's not just the police.
How much of what happens in the UK today is worth fighting to the death to defend? Not much is there? A pretty flag?
An upside of this thread was that Roger Day, fake veteran. He had the SAS dagger on his lapelle, on his tie pin, his hat and his Poppy. LOL. It reminded me of non-standard badges people stick on cars.
Some police are OK, I've met and know some, but 'policy books' don't walk out of police stations by themselves.
The public aren't a big fan of politicians. If the police don't want the same amount of ire meted out to politicians perhaps they should try to play politics less?
Was it Red 4, or Elroy Blue that called me a disgrace as I have to think about wearing a Poppy? I wasn't offended.
I know someone that got an award for what they did in Afghanistan.
I find Remembrance Day difficult to stomach. We can't change what happened in the past, but we can change how we treat service men and former service men today. The way compensation to those that returned from Afghanistan and Iraq was quibbled over offends me deeply. You pays your money and takes the choice. I find it inconsistent and hypocritical. The government wanted us behind the military while then doing all they can to save money when dealing with the wounded and severance pay and pensions. It's not done in my name. I didn't vote for that.
We can't alter WW1 or WW2, that's history. We can change how we treat servicemen and women today.
'Military convenant'? Just another empty soundbite like 'Police reform' isn't it.
£74M wasted on Tamiflu going out of date because the NHS can't manage inventory? That Egyptian bloke that broke the neck of that ballet dancer in Cardiff can't be deported due to his human rights.
There's much i don't buy into. It's not just the police.
How much of what happens in the UK today is worth fighting to the death to defend? Not much is there? A pretty flag?
An upside of this thread was that Roger Day, fake veteran. He had the SAS dagger on his lapelle, on his tie pin, his hat and his Poppy. LOL. It reminded me of non-standard badges people stick on cars.
Some police are OK, I've met and know some, but 'policy books' don't walk out of police stations by themselves.
The public aren't a big fan of politicians. If the police don't want the same amount of ire meted out to politicians perhaps they should try to play politics less?
Edited by carinaman on Tuesday 1st October 13:25
Chaps, while I think a lot of us do have different opinions on many things I think this thread deserves to be kept on track.
This is about the manners and respect shown at a police memorial.
If you have a different drum to bang, please take it somewhere else lest it be considered trolling.
There are times and places for long winter anti police rants - this thread is not one of them.
This is about the manners and respect shown at a police memorial.
If you have a different drum to bang, please take it somewhere else lest it be considered trolling.
There are times and places for long winter anti police rants - this thread is not one of them.
XCP said:
ClaphamGT3 said:
But who would that serving/former serving officer figurehead be?
I can't think of a long list of candidates but it would be interesting to know who you chaps think are the exemplars of the force
Steve Otter QPM ?I can't think of a long list of candidates but it would be interesting to know who you chaps think are the exemplars of the force
Former Chief Constable, served in the Met in every rank from PC to Commander. Currently an HMI.
What is the view on Paul Condon?
I can't get upset about him wearing that uniform.
Supposedly it's OK for Prince Charles to wear a ceremonial uniform. He's not elected is he? What does he earn? What does he earn from renting HMP Dartmoor to the Prisons' Service? Who paid for the Middleton's Apartment at Kensigton Palace? Prince Charles or you and I?
I think it's a good idea for the police regulator not to be ex-BiB. I think there would be too many potential conflicts of interest for a start, 'jobs for the boys' isn't just something that happens within the police.
Regulators that are too cosy with the stuff they're trying to regulate isn't an issue that's exclusive to the police service is it?
Look at Thatcham not downgrading the security of BMWs that can have the keys cloned by accessing an OBD port in the dash from outside of the car.
That Goad paedophile cover up case that was ongoing when Otter was there. Was that due to a cosy relationship with a police officer(s)? 'You scratch my back, I'll scratch yours' etc.? Was there a cosy relationship there? Can you see why a police regulator shouldn't be cosy with the police and that's likely to be less so if the head of that regulator isn't ex-BiB?
You can get upset about Winsor's choice of garb.
There are far more pressing issues that need sorting than the trousers with the stripe that Winsor wore.
Does the police belong to the police, or the public?
Supposedly it's OK for Prince Charles to wear a ceremonial uniform. He's not elected is he? What does he earn? What does he earn from renting HMP Dartmoor to the Prisons' Service? Who paid for the Middleton's Apartment at Kensigton Palace? Prince Charles or you and I?
I think it's a good idea for the police regulator not to be ex-BiB. I think there would be too many potential conflicts of interest for a start, 'jobs for the boys' isn't just something that happens within the police.
Regulators that are too cosy with the stuff they're trying to regulate isn't an issue that's exclusive to the police service is it?
Look at Thatcham not downgrading the security of BMWs that can have the keys cloned by accessing an OBD port in the dash from outside of the car.
That Goad paedophile cover up case that was ongoing when Otter was there. Was that due to a cosy relationship with a police officer(s)? 'You scratch my back, I'll scratch yours' etc.? Was there a cosy relationship there? Can you see why a police regulator shouldn't be cosy with the police and that's likely to be less so if the head of that regulator isn't ex-BiB?
You can get upset about Winsor's choice of garb.
There are far more pressing issues that need sorting than the trousers with the stripe that Winsor wore.
Does the police belong to the police, or the public?
streaky said:
carinaman said:
Was it Red 4, or Elroy Blue that called me a disgrace as I have to think about wearing a Poppy? I wasn't offended.
That might have been me (as well).Streaky
We all have different opinions.
I have to think about wearing the Poppy. I think I may have been taking an exam once at 11AM on 11 Nov. I grew up in married quarters. A decent former BiB I know once caught someone breaking into married quarters to steal the plumbing to sell. But then supposedly MoD bases have been stripped of plumbing by those staying there as part of their job. It's not just 'policy books' that go walkies, it's night vision goggles too.
Edited by carinaman on Tuesday 1st October 14:18
Do you think he ever went to his local tyre fitter and tried to swap the Good Years for Michelins?
Sir Paul Condon was a former Met. Commissioner?
There's no scope for conflicts of interest there, him being on the board of G4S? Or that's just the same as former Govt. Ministers getting jobs on the boards of Banks?
Do you think the number of former Minsiters getting 'jobs' on the boards of banks may have influenced the state bail out of the banks at all?
Sir Paul Condon was a former Met. Commissioner?
There's no scope for conflicts of interest there, him being on the board of G4S? Or that's just the same as former Govt. Ministers getting jobs on the boards of Banks?
Do you think the number of former Minsiters getting 'jobs' on the boards of banks may have influenced the state bail out of the banks at all?
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