Difficult to present the safety argument here I feel.
Discussion
Rovinghawk said:
The point of the thread is that the enforcement of the law doesn't appear to be based on safety as much as revenue generation/ employment justification.
The law exists on a safety (amongst other reasons) basis. Enforcement is a consequence of the law existing for those basis.What astonishes me is why those safety vans are there in the first place when the Nottingham ring road is covered from one end to the other with more average speed cameras than probably the rest of the county put together (well apart from Annesley close to jun 27 M1), and which cost the taxpayer tens of thousands of pounds each year in operating costs. Last time I heard that they were running at a huge loss due to the low average speed attained by motorists unfortunate enough to be driving along the ring road, especially close to Queens Medical Centre, which regularly turns into a gigantic car-park.
rich888 said:
What astonishes me is why those safety vans are there in the first place when the Nottingham ring road is covered from one end to the other with more average speed cameras than probably the rest of the county put together (well apart from Annesley close to jun 27 M1), and which cost the taxpayer tens of thousands of pounds each year in operating costs. Last time I heard that they were running at a huge loss due to the low average speed attained by motorists unfortunate enough to be driving along the ring road, especially close to Queens Medical Centre, which regularly turns into a gigantic car-park.
It's because the cameras finish just before that point one way and it's at the bottom of a hill the other way, so it's a happy hunting ground.13m said:
Near the Queens Medical Centre on Clifton Blvd in Nottingham there is often a camera van. It sits at the bottom of a hill catching motorists who are on a dual carriageway with Armco both sides and not a pedestrian in sight because there is an overpass. "It's because it's outside a hospital" is their specious explanation (my wife got a ticket from it).
Today however it was parked on the opposite carriageway, again with Armco both sides, catching people who were a tad to eager to get up to 50. You can see the 50 sign in this photo and the van was just before the silver car
There was pretty much no danger at all being caused by anyone accelerating to 50 a bit early. So have I missed something or was this a bit cheeky?
Quit whinningToday however it was parked on the opposite carriageway, again with Armco both sides, catching people who were a tad to eager to get up to 50. You can see the 50 sign in this photo and the van was just before the silver car
There was pretty much no danger at all being caused by anyone accelerating to 50 a bit early. So have I missed something or was this a bit cheeky?
vonhosen said:
The law exists on a safety (amongst other reasons) basis.
Very likely.vonhosen said:
Enforcement is a consequence of the law existing for those basis.
There is a school of thought that enforcement to the degree it currently exists is a consequence of being easy (your own words on another thread) and profitable.It's low risk, brings money into the coffers via SACs, difficult to argue against because of 'think of the children' and provides employment for parasites who want to pretend they're bravely in the forefront of road safety.
Was it Plato that said excessive enforcement turns a good law into a bad one?
Rovinghawk said:
vonhosen said:
The law exists on a safety (amongst other reasons) basis.
Very likely.vonhosen said:
Enforcement is a consequence of the law existing for those basis.
There is a school of thought that enforcement to the degree it currently exists is a consequence of being easy (your own words on another thread) and profitable.It's low risk, brings money into the coffers via SACs, difficult to argue against because of 'think of the children' and provides employment for parasites who want to pretend they're bravely in the forefront of road safety.
Was it Plato that said excessive enforcement turns a good law into a bad one?
A fraction of offences committed are reported, locations of enforcement are in the main widely advertised & sanctions imposed are graduated.
Even if they doubled or tripled the number reported it would still frankly be a drop in the ocean.
Edited by vonhosen on Monday 28th November 17:36
chrisgtx said:
Isn't that what horses do?
Anyway. this site has now been overrun with Brake trolls who worship the number on the sign.( read my previous post)
Hardly Anyway. this site has now been overrun with Brake trolls who worship the number on the sign.( read my previous post)
Personally motoring is my work & my leisure (including holidays).
The Brake trolls stuff is fast becoming the motoring equivalent of Godwin's law.
chrisgtx said:
Isn't that what horses do?
Anyway. this site has now been overrun with Brake trolls who worship the number on the sign.( read my previous post)
Keep your eye test and prescription upto date and only drive quickly if you are alert. Anyway. this site has now been overrun with Brake trolls who worship the number on the sign.( read my previous post)
Im no angel but I use common sense.
It's not rocket science.
It's depressing the way so called road safety has gone,I don't want to be involved in an accident any more than anyone else.
And as a keen road cyclist, a so called vulnerable road user I'm still banging the drum that the emphasis on speed is misguided, yes of course it's needed but we are missing out on the main causes of accidents, poor driving skills in general, all that seems to be happening now is the wholesale reduction of NSL and increasing 30/40mph boundaries.
It is a lazy and cheap answer to the calls of brake and co to be seen to be doing something.
The loss of proper trafpol has had a terrible effect, visible policing is one of the best deterrents going.
For instance, my most recent dealings with RTC'S were an elderly chap committing a U turn causing a head on, and a chap driving with the sun in his eyes crossing the centre line hitting a car, lorry and then e design up on its side in a hedge, thankfully minor injuries all round but if there had of been myself and the better half on our bikes at the wrong time and place I wouldn't be here typing.
As far as I know no prosecutions were ongoing, but if any of you maniacs had been caught by camera on those very roads 10mph over you would of been 'done'.
That seems to be the grand total of driver education and enforcement these days. Sad times.
And as a keen road cyclist, a so called vulnerable road user I'm still banging the drum that the emphasis on speed is misguided, yes of course it's needed but we are missing out on the main causes of accidents, poor driving skills in general, all that seems to be happening now is the wholesale reduction of NSL and increasing 30/40mph boundaries.
It is a lazy and cheap answer to the calls of brake and co to be seen to be doing something.
The loss of proper trafpol has had a terrible effect, visible policing is one of the best deterrents going.
For instance, my most recent dealings with RTC'S were an elderly chap committing a U turn causing a head on, and a chap driving with the sun in his eyes crossing the centre line hitting a car, lorry and then e design up on its side in a hedge, thankfully minor injuries all round but if there had of been myself and the better half on our bikes at the wrong time and place I wouldn't be here typing.
As far as I know no prosecutions were ongoing, but if any of you maniacs had been caught by camera on those very roads 10mph over you would of been 'done'.
That seems to be the grand total of driver education and enforcement these days. Sad times.
Edited by chrisgtx on Monday 28th November 19:44
Rovinghawk said:
vonhosen said:
the level of enforcement is hardly excessive
The level of perceived inappropriate enforcement is excesssive.YMMV
1) Perceived is going to be influenced by people's lens that they view life through.
2) Inappropriate is again going to be influenced by the lens people view it through. Again what I've said before (the numbers, that there isn't a zero tolerance approach & graduated penalties etc) don't lead me to believe it's inappropriate.
I'm not going to concern myself with all the different lenses people view things through.
Also as a road cyclist I feel people with poor roadcraft, self awareness and visual/alert skills are picked off our roads by 365days a year cameras.
We aren't a persecuted minority. It's only a minority of motorists who think speed+poor awareness skills is wrong.
Good road policing picks up the generally poor roadcraft and poor car condition types.
NOT the speeders.
We aren't a persecuted minority. It's only a minority of motorists who think speed+poor awareness skills is wrong.
Good road policing picks up the generally poor roadcraft and poor car condition types.
NOT the speeders.
Rovinghawk said:
It's not about money it's about SAFETY.
Well obviously because of all the councils/police forces in the UK, Notts are the most moaning, whingeing of them all with regards to their finances, or rather the lack thereof.They can't Police the town centre because they have no money, they can't do any number of things because they have no money, yet I see scamera vans every time I travel there and their (camera) bus lane enforcement is world class.
So given their priorities when cash is so tight, they truly must be all about the safety...
catso said:
Well obviously because of all the councils/police forces in the UK, Notts are the most moaning, whingeing of them all with regards to their finances, or rather the lack thereof.
They can't Police the town centre because they have no money, they can't do any number of things because they have no money, yet I see scamera vans every time I travel there and their (camera) bus lane enforcement is world class.
So given their priorities when cash is so tight, they truly must be all about the safety...
I had the misfortune of going to Nottingham on Friday, thankfully someone else was driving.They can't Police the town centre because they have no money, they can't do any number of things because they have no money, yet I see scamera vans every time I travel there and their (camera) bus lane enforcement is world class.
So given their priorities when cash is so tight, they truly must be all about the safety...
I warned him it might be the camera hub of UK PLC before we went, but I was shocked by how many there actually were when we got there (I usually skirt the edges en route to somewhere else).
Truly depressing.
I wouldn't consider living in an area with that going on.
It makes driving totally unpleasant, even though in the city zone I don't object to the limits in principle.
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