One law for them again?
Discussion
IaHa said:
So in reality, I think that all 'sides' of this argument are agreed that the status quo is an impossible, untenable situation, when, in order to justify the government's stance on speed enforcement, we have home office ministers declaring it a "serious criminal offence".
In reality we know that probably more than 80% of those caught speeding by camera are much safer than average drivers - so where is the sense in it all!
The argument lines drawn are not public against Bib, (although it easily can become one), it is generally a mutually held frustration about the methodology of enforcement.
It is clearly failing in terms of road safety, convenience, and PR.
The overall costs to the treasury are greater now than they were.
In this respect technology is the devil itself. It is crack cocaine - it sucks the authorities in with its guile, attractiveness and appeal.
They are now so far down the road, that although they now know the road they have travelled was completely wrong, they have neither the interest nor the strength nor the political humility to come back.
But it has created a bit of a mess.
Indeed and the failed policies are costing lives and untold damage to Public/Authority relationships and for that heads should be hung in shame.
But since there is no-one more self-serving and arrogant than your average Politician, (with our current 'leaders' stting new lows) , I can't see them apologising/resigning/committing Hari-kiri (sp?) so now what?
IaHa said:
In this respect technology is the devil itself. It is crack cocaine - it sucks the authorities in with its guile, attractiveness and appeal.
They are now so far down the road, that although they now know the road they have travelled was completely wrong, they have neither the interest nor the strength nor the political humility to come back.
I (somewhat despondently) tend to agree. But we have to keep on fighting. A more widespread refusal to accept disproportionate enforcement would, I believe, bring the system down, but we need overcome the spin of the partnerships in order to persuade a wider section of the uninformed public.
The alternative is pretty horrible to contemplate. The partnerships will continue to grow by assuming ever wider powers of enforcement to create new revenue streams. I have a horrid sensation that we're watching a new bureaucratic colossus slowly gathering mass and momentum. It could become unstoppable if its growth is not checked soon.
>> Edited by Observer2 on Tuesday 11th October 12:18
Plotloss said:
I think it comes down to the fact that the public arent happy with the Government's rules but its the coppers who get it in the neck as the 'middle man'
Exactly....
and I have absolutly no problem with *any* plod that understands this too.
Gone went over the line IMHO by his stance that he is a driving god etc. (if you get my drift)
Gone - don't go. Even if you don't like the nasty drivers picking on you, no-ones being truly personal.
Basic problem is the attempt at justification. Lets face it, some Managers abuse their position at work by arriving late. Some Waitresses abuse their position by eating the food. Some Bus Drivers abuse their position by letting on family members for free.
And some rozzers abuse their position by driving too fast, knowing they can get away with it. I dont think it is the end of the world, and I'm not in a fit of despondency about it. But if the BiB just admitted it, and said a few do it, like everyone else does, it would go down a lot better than the attempt to justify it.
You would get more respect if you admitted that you are not ALL perfect, and that SOME of you OCCASIONALLY do something a bit wrong.
Basic problem is the attempt at justification. Lets face it, some Managers abuse their position at work by arriving late. Some Waitresses abuse their position by eating the food. Some Bus Drivers abuse their position by letting on family members for free.
And some rozzers abuse their position by driving too fast, knowing they can get away with it. I dont think it is the end of the world, and I'm not in a fit of despondency about it. But if the BiB just admitted it, and said a few do it, like everyone else does, it would go down a lot better than the attempt to justify it.
You would get more respect if you admitted that you are not ALL perfect, and that SOME of you OCCASIONALLY do something a bit wrong.
Observer2 said:
In this respect technology is the devil itself. It is crack cocaine - it sucks the authorities in with its guile, attractiveness and appeal.
They are now so far down the road, that although they now know the road they have travelled was completely wrong, they have neither the interest nor the strength nor the political humility to come back.
I (somewhat despondently) tend to agree. But we have to keep on fighting. A more widespread refusal to accept disproportionate enforcement would, I believe, bring the system down, but we need overcome the spin of the partnerships in order to persuade a wider section of the uninformed public.
The alternative is pretty horrible to contemplate. The partnerships will continue to grow by assuming ever wider powers of enforcement to create new revenue streams. I have a horrid sensation that we're watching a new bureaucratic colossus slowly gathering mass and momentum. It could become unstoppable if its growth is not checked soon.
>> Edited by Observer2 on Tuesday 11th October 12:18
Agreed.
We cannot be beaten into submission by this BS approach to safety. If the government and camera businesses carry on the way they are it will become a voting issue at the next election, then we may see some changes.
Plotloss said:
I think it comes down to the fact that the public arent happy with the Government's rules but its the coppers who get it in the neck as the 'middle man'
Exactly.
If the Scam vans weren't such fricking cheats (and the *are* cheats), then no-one would have any objection to coppers speeding (though the 160mph man might still raise an eyebrow), because coppers were always interested in the loopy drivers and less in those doing 35mph in a stupid 30mph limit.
People are p*ssed off with the incredible over the top enforcement of the scamera thugs, anyone with an IQ greater than a lump of wood *knows* that it's a massive scam, and resentment of coppers for breaking the limits (and in general) is understandable if unfair.
I don't doubt that cops use this excuse to get off speeding. This wasn't a problem when speeding laws were enforced in the same way.
It is utterly predictable that the coppers will get the blame and that public/police relationships will go down the pan. Because it's the only link 99.9% of people have to the Scamera lot.
What do they expect ?
Of course it's unfair on the copper, but the scamera lot are grotesquely unfair as well.
You reap what you (or more precisely your masters) sow.
You think it's bad now ? It'll get worse before it gets better IMO.
autismuk said:
You think it's bad now ? It'll get worse before it gets better IMO.
Sadly I agree...it's going to have to get bad enough to get the average joe off his backside...and that'll only happen when his livelihood is threatened because he's on 9 points.
I hate this current government...I really hate them...curtailing civil liberties, stealth-taxes by the dozen, presiding over the biggest benefit-fraud losses ever, and this as the cherry on the top. And yet I do not believe either of the other parties would change much...which is starting to depress me...I'm off to raid the paracetamol cupboard!!! (
)james_j said:
Agreed.
We cannot be beaten into submission by this BS approach to safety. If the government and camera businesses carry on the way they are it will become a voting issue at the next election, then we may see some changes.
If only that were true James, but as Havoc as also said, all the other parties seem to toe the same line, indeed, the tories started the rot.
If the tories want power at the next election it's simple: announce an end to the speed camera experiment and uproot them all.........they'll win by a landslide.
Betcha' they don't do it though!.......
I have sped read most of the topic but.....
I have been hauled over the coals for complaints on driving, before i've even been able to explain, or try and understand when / where.
Dont have cameras on my division, but we are all aware that we have to set an example to others, No holier than thou speech.
Cant / wont try and explain for others, but when i was pictured speeding, i had to explain why, what job, why that speed, was it justified. All of this was examined. plus previous driving record and views from other officers. THEN and only then could i request that i use a dispensation to allow me to be released from the punishment. I cant speak for differnet forces, but this was 4 years ago in Thames Valley.
what i say is my honest and best opinion and not that of my current force and is given to allow those who read this forum the chanse to see a little more of Police Officers closer to home.
Robbo
I have been hauled over the coals for complaints on driving, before i've even been able to explain, or try and understand when / where.
Dont have cameras on my division, but we are all aware that we have to set an example to others, No holier than thou speech.
Cant / wont try and explain for others, but when i was pictured speeding, i had to explain why, what job, why that speed, was it justified. All of this was examined. plus previous driving record and views from other officers. THEN and only then could i request that i use a dispensation to allow me to be released from the punishment. I cant speak for differnet forces, but this was 4 years ago in Thames Valley.
what i say is my honest and best opinion and not that of my current force and is given to allow those who read this forum the chanse to see a little more of Police Officers closer to home.
Robbo
Just re-read the thread
The car i use is a BMW 330 TD estate. I think the factory state 204 bhp, but thats through an auto box.
I am fortunate to be a highly trained driver, but i am also human too. I have made mistakes, but not damaged anyones car.
The point now is that powerful cars are too easily available now and most dont know how to drive them. Acase with a man in a 225 bhp Audi tt who went sideways at 80mph as he hadnt prepared for the torent of water on the motorway and aqua plained. I was just about to stop him for advise prior to this, but he stopped after his scurmish and was white as a sheet. He certainly wasnt an IAm / Rally / Skilled driver.
He wasnt observant, i think thats whats important, and thats a huge part of what Police Drivers are taught.
Question : Do you think that 120 mph is safe at 8am on the busiest stretch of motorway in the country ?
Answer : No, but the 17 - YES 17 year old lad who borrowed his dads car thought it was. Speed could have killed him that day.
And yes i drove to catch him up without lights or sirens on, purely to get close for his reg plate. A stolen car or simular ilk person may have zoomed off even faster had i approached with it all on.
Only a few people will have seen the stop and realised, others may have gone to work for the day thinking - BET HE WAS LATE FOR BREAKFAST ?
The car i use is a BMW 330 TD estate. I think the factory state 204 bhp, but thats through an auto box.
I am fortunate to be a highly trained driver, but i am also human too. I have made mistakes, but not damaged anyones car.
The point now is that powerful cars are too easily available now and most dont know how to drive them. Acase with a man in a 225 bhp Audi tt who went sideways at 80mph as he hadnt prepared for the torent of water on the motorway and aqua plained. I was just about to stop him for advise prior to this, but he stopped after his scurmish and was white as a sheet. He certainly wasnt an IAm / Rally / Skilled driver.
He wasnt observant, i think thats whats important, and thats a huge part of what Police Drivers are taught.
Question : Do you think that 120 mph is safe at 8am on the busiest stretch of motorway in the country ?
Answer : No, but the 17 - YES 17 year old lad who borrowed his dads car thought it was. Speed could have killed him that day.
And yes i drove to catch him up without lights or sirens on, purely to get close for his reg plate. A stolen car or simular ilk person may have zoomed off even faster had i approached with it all on.
Only a few people will have seen the stop and realised, others may have gone to work for the day thinking - BET HE WAS LATE FOR BREAKFAST ?
Robbo SPS said:
I have sped read most of the topic but.....
I have been hauled over the coals for complaints on driving, before i've even been able to explain, or try and understand when / where.
Dont have cameras on my division, but we are all aware that we have to set an example to others, No holier than thou speech.
Cant / wont try and explain for others, but when i was pictured speeding, i had to explain why, what job, why that speed, was it justified. All of this was examined. plus previous driving record and views from other officers. THEN and only then could i request that i use a dispensation to allow me to be released from the punishment. I cant speak for differnet forces, but this was 4 years ago in Thames Valley.
what i say is my honest and best opinion and not that of my current force and is given to allow those who read this forum the chanse to see a little more of Police Officers closer to home.
Robbo
I think that this is the difference between you being honest about your role as a plod, and others that seem to take pride in quoting the official line etc.
Thing is Robbo, there's a difference between the BiB at 120mph, and those tootling along at 80mph. Most of us know that the 80mph man is not on a shout. I can't say I'm too bothered about it, but it's when someone tries to say that they're on a job that it gets stupid and annoying.
I agree with ya about those who can't control it. Almost anyone nowadays can get power from day 1. In the good old days we started off on a morris marina, possibly moved up to a mini, got a 1.3 escort (all second hand of course).
Nowadays the thicko youff get the disposable income, and assuming it's not spent on drugs, burberry or prams, they go out and buy 180 bhp, new, discs all round, blah blah blah. They are still sh*t drivers, they just don't know it.
I think you've got a real tough job, 'cos a hell of a lot of 'normal' people seem to be anti Old Bill. However, I would rather you any day than the junkies, dole wasters and toss pot drivers that I come across.
Viva la BiB (apart from the smart arse clever ones who can't tell the difference between us normal folk and a chav).
I agree with ya about those who can't control it. Almost anyone nowadays can get power from day 1. In the good old days we started off on a morris marina, possibly moved up to a mini, got a 1.3 escort (all second hand of course).
Nowadays the thicko youff get the disposable income, and assuming it's not spent on drugs, burberry or prams, they go out and buy 180 bhp, new, discs all round, blah blah blah. They are still sh*t drivers, they just don't know it.
I think you've got a real tough job, 'cos a hell of a lot of 'normal' people seem to be anti Old Bill. However, I would rather you any day than the junkies, dole wasters and toss pot drivers that I come across.
Viva la BiB (apart from the smart arse clever ones who can't tell the difference between us normal folk and a chav).
Big Fat F'er said:
...(apart from the smart arse clever ones who can't tell the difference between us normal folk and a chav).
In my experience it's often not the chav's on the road you have to worry about - you can see them coming a mile off and act as necessary to stay clear. Ditto white van man usually, although he can be a pain-in-the-arse even if you can avoid the danger.
IMHO it's often the rep/junior exec/young professional lad on a big bonus...any of whom might think they're "The Man", that they can drive really well, and also own the bloody road to boot. By the time you've twigged what sort they are, they're well within your danger-area, acting aggressive.
Why? Because they drive the same sort of cars as you and I, so "blend in" unless you're observing them closely - the most dangerous two I saw on the M1 this morning were a brand-new Mondeo and a French-reg 306...both bland and forgettable, but acting like aggressive obnoxious dangerous tw@ts!
reanimate said:
It may be that the police do not like the current situation, but I certainly don't see any of the police arguing in the motorist's favour.
Far too busy reaping the overtime.
Possibly true for some, but consider where you work:-
- The bosses institute a new plan which will make the company a lot of money, but which won't be good for the customers...it'll cost them more money and it makes the product slightly more dangerous to use. The customers can't go anywhere else.
- The staff are all offered lucrative overtime to help fulfil this plan.
- Anyone who speaks out will soon find their career at a dead-end.
So...in all honesty, what would you do? How many people faced with that situation at their employer would speak up?
reanimate said:
I'd spend Sunday afternoons, on nice sunny days, camped out in a bus stop, with my hair dryer pointed at suckers at 300m.
Wasters.
That reminds me, went past a talivan today but I knew he was there aiming his camera onto vehicles coming the other way. I had to go 2 miles down the road from there, so, on the way back I dutifully collected a very long line of cars and lead them all back past him at 25 mph!....
By the way, it was raining, and he was operating the van with the small rear windows SHUT!.......and people were getting pulled
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