M25 cameras - warning from BIB friend
Discussion
GPSHead said:
Aren't there also cameras (or at least gantries) between J15 and J16? Anyone know whether there are actually cameras on that stretch, and if they'll be going digital as well?
There's one camera each way between 15 and 16 (M4 & M40) and have seen a few flashed by them. Film in them? Who know?Will keep an eye out for these little boxes on the new stretch between the M3 and the M4. All I know is there are gaps in the gantries for Gatso boxes that have been left empty since that stretch was done.
I cant find the reference now but I recall several years back a story of a guy getting a NIP due to one of the Gatso cameras in this section of the M25. The story went along the lines that he found the manufacturers specs on the camera and found that they can only be used in isolation, a minimum distance away from each other otherwsie they could intefere with each other. This was the defence used he got away with it, I have never since heard of anyone receiving a ticket on this stretch of the M25. Living local to this stretch I regularly travel through this section of motoway at very unsociable hours when the road is empty and speeds that I am not to proud of. I have never received a ticket (though I have been pulled over by an unmarked and told my driving was very disciplined but be careful please - I think they were about to go off shift (4am) and couldnt be bothered- phew ).
It's a similar story to this one about the laser tripod cameras
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/art...
It's a similar story to this one about the laser tripod cameras
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/art...
Edited by mc123 on Friday 1st February 11:38
jon- said:
dcb said:
Top tip: always make sure you aren't the fastest on
the road - that way someone else is in the frame.
Brilliant tip. Really. My pal in the M3 is doing 130, I so can do 129 and the cameras will ignore me.the road - that way someone else is in the frame.
Fancy going for a drive?
On topic, I often sit at 95 leptons around that section at night, I've seen a camera flash once when the VSL was in place. The cameras are off if it's NSL.
Trommel said:
"Lazy 'What Car' contributor reads thread on forum and makes a story out of it" shocker! fastfreddy said:
"Lazy 'What Car' contributor reads thread on forum and makes a story out of it" shocker!
What Car said:
A spokesman for the Highways Agency (HA) confirmed the changes between junction 10 and 15 on the M25, saying they were part of routine upgrades currently being carried out.
The spokesman refused to comment on speculation that the new cameras would be set with lower speed thresholds than the older units.
The spokesman refused to comment on speculation that the new cameras would be set with lower speed thresholds than the older units.
I am as dubious now as I was when these rumours first surfaced..
There are lots of so called 'reports' about this (all general and very vague in nature) and the same email (errors and all) has been doing the tour for months, but no-one seems to have produced any evidence which would irrefutably substantiate the claims..
AFAIK, the only digital system which has attained Home Office type approval to enforce variable limits is HADECS (as seen on the M42)..
But HADECS is only approved for use when the variable speed limit is in operation..
There are lots of so called 'reports' about this (all general and very vague in nature) and the same email (errors and all) has been doing the tour for months, but no-one seems to have produced any evidence which would irrefutably substantiate the claims..
AFAIK, the only digital system which has attained Home Office type approval to enforce variable limits is HADECS (as seen on the M42)..
But HADECS is only approved for use when the variable speed limit is in operation..
The only potential fact in that What Car report was the first para: "The area of the M25 covered by variable speed limits is having its safety cameras updated to digital units, so that they will be operational all the time."
IMO that means they will be operational all the time because they won't run out of film. It doesn't mean they will be on all the time and all other "suggestions" and "reports" the writer refers to were not confirmed.
In other words, it's a non-story but why not spread a bit more FUD and scare everyone into slowing down to a walking pace in fear of being flashed.
I drive that section of the M25 fairly regularly. Through a combination of radar detectors and observation over the years I have worked out which gantries have cameras and which don't. When the temporary speed limit is in force it is often too congested to drive above the displayed speed anyway, but if it is clear and I'm coming up to a gantry which has a camera and am slightly over the temp limit, I just gradually ease off the throttle a few hundred yards before so I'm within an indicated 4-5mph of the speed.
I see a large proportion of drivers who see the temp limit signs and are driving at 80-90mph in between gantries and then slam on the brakes just before a gantry to bring them down to 50, 60 or whatever then speed up again to the next gantry. Often they do this while driving in lane 4 with nothing in lane 3 and without any suggestion they've looked in their mirrors. This causes bunching and near misses when the car behind them doesn't react quickly enough or isn't looking far enough ahead to predict the 'hazard'.
The whole reason these temp limits were put in that section was not because it has a bad accident history but to stop bunching and keep the traffic flowing. If they were to set cameras at 80 on a clear day in good conditions, then bunching, lane hogging,panic braking and general camera paranoia would increase, giving rise to more accidents and worse traffic flow. A backward step.
I don't see it happening there and I think this sort of FUD doesn't help the Highways Agency or the Police at all. It just adds to the resentment and bad feeling that they are "out to get us".
IMO that means they will be operational all the time because they won't run out of film. It doesn't mean they will be on all the time and all other "suggestions" and "reports" the writer refers to were not confirmed.
In other words, it's a non-story but why not spread a bit more FUD and scare everyone into slowing down to a walking pace in fear of being flashed.
I drive that section of the M25 fairly regularly. Through a combination of radar detectors and observation over the years I have worked out which gantries have cameras and which don't. When the temporary speed limit is in force it is often too congested to drive above the displayed speed anyway, but if it is clear and I'm coming up to a gantry which has a camera and am slightly over the temp limit, I just gradually ease off the throttle a few hundred yards before so I'm within an indicated 4-5mph of the speed.
I see a large proportion of drivers who see the temp limit signs and are driving at 80-90mph in between gantries and then slam on the brakes just before a gantry to bring them down to 50, 60 or whatever then speed up again to the next gantry. Often they do this while driving in lane 4 with nothing in lane 3 and without any suggestion they've looked in their mirrors. This causes bunching and near misses when the car behind them doesn't react quickly enough or isn't looking far enough ahead to predict the 'hazard'.
The whole reason these temp limits were put in that section was not because it has a bad accident history but to stop bunching and keep the traffic flowing. If they were to set cameras at 80 on a clear day in good conditions, then bunching, lane hogging,panic braking and general camera paranoia would increase, giving rise to more accidents and worse traffic flow. A backward step.
I don't see it happening there and I think this sort of FUD doesn't help the Highways Agency or the Police at all. It just adds to the resentment and bad feeling that they are "out to get us".
I would like to be clear about what cameras we are talking about. AND yes I was NOT moving when the pixs were taken)
These are the cameras near the A3 Turn off.
I have seen these flash when a speed is posted.
I have also seen these flash twice when I car goes over 100mph .. (Mr ML driver !)
There seems to be no reports of people receiving tickets ..
These seem to be the NEW cameras ... Look very carefully and there is one above each lane, ALTHOUGH NOT every gantry .. these are the ones between Heathrow and the M3
As an aside, does anybody know about the SPECs setup on the north side of the M25 ???
These are the cameras near the A3 Turn off.
I have seen these flash when a speed is posted.
I have also seen these flash twice when I car goes over 100mph .. (Mr ML driver !)
There seems to be no reports of people receiving tickets ..
These seem to be the NEW cameras ... Look very carefully and there is one above each lane, ALTHOUGH NOT every gantry .. these are the ones between Heathrow and the M3
As an aside, does anybody know about the SPECs setup on the north side of the M25 ???
I'm not sure what these photos are supposed to be showing.
These signs don't have built in cameras. The round 'windows' are in fact LED clusters used for signalling hazards:
Any 'new' cameras would be at the rear of the gantries as they would need to take the pic of your rear numberplate after you passed under the gantry and hence into the speed limit.
These signs don't have built in cameras. The round 'windows' are in fact LED clusters used for signalling hazards:
Any 'new' cameras would be at the rear of the gantries as they would need to take the pic of your rear numberplate after you passed under the gantry and hence into the speed limit.
fastfreddy said:
Any 'new' cameras would be at the rear of the gantries as they would need to take the pic of your rear numberplate after you passed under the gantry and hence into the speed limit.
Wondered whether they might be forward-facing to snap the driver like SPECS. I couldn't really make out where the new cameras are supposed to be in the pics that've been posted either in that case.Funk said:
fastfreddy said:
Any 'new' cameras would be at the rear of the gantries as they would need to take the pic of your rear numberplate after you passed under the gantry and hence into the speed limit.
Wondered whether they might be forward-facing to snap the driver like SPECS. I couldn't really make out where the new cameras are supposed to be in the pics that've been posted either in that case.With the gantries on the M25 the speed restriction will start at the point you pass under the gantry. Up to that point, you could be in a different limit (70 if the previous gantry hasn't got a temporary limit posted or lower if it has). Also, the white lines on the road are painted after the gantry and not before (unless they've nipped out there with a pot of paint since I last drove that stretch).
I think there's a good chance you won't see any difference in the size, position or look of these 'new' digital cameras. They will most likely be designed to fit inside the same housings used by the existing film-based cameras.
fastfreddy said:
I think there's a good chance you won't see any difference in the size, position or look of these 'new' digital cameras. They will most likely be designed to fit inside the same housings used by the existing film-based cameras.
I suspect the new digital cameras (will) look something like this..
SS2,
are they from J5 J6 of the M20 ?
Nasty
HADECS
The Highways Agency Digital Enforcement Camera System (HADECS) is a digital enforcement product designed in the first instance to record violations of speeds limits set via variable speed signs. As such it automatically adjusts its speed threshold to that appropriate for the displayed sign. Combining radar technology for speed detection and multiple cameras for image capture the camera outstation section of the equipment captures offence data and encrypts it to the standards specified by the UK HOSDB. This data is then automatically collected a number of times each day and saved to DVD in a secure police office by the HADECS instation.
HadecsVIEW LARGER
The instation equipment additionally has functions for decrypting the evidence, displaying the offences and for performing the UK mandatory Secondary Speed Check. Offences that pass this test are then exported to be picked up by a back office processing system. Other functionality at the instation enables control of the camera outstations including enabling and disabling them, setting their speed thresholds, instigating the outstations to perform a self test and recovery of evidential and log data on demand. The instation is intuitive to use and includes a map interface to provide visualisation of the speed enforcement locations and their current status.
are they from J5 J6 of the M20 ?
Nasty
HADECS
The Highways Agency Digital Enforcement Camera System (HADECS) is a digital enforcement product designed in the first instance to record violations of speeds limits set via variable speed signs. As such it automatically adjusts its speed threshold to that appropriate for the displayed sign. Combining radar technology for speed detection and multiple cameras for image capture the camera outstation section of the equipment captures offence data and encrypts it to the standards specified by the UK HOSDB. This data is then automatically collected a number of times each day and saved to DVD in a secure police office by the HADECS instation.
HadecsVIEW LARGER
The instation equipment additionally has functions for decrypting the evidence, displaying the offences and for performing the UK mandatory Secondary Speed Check. Offences that pass this test are then exported to be picked up by a back office processing system. Other functionality at the instation enables control of the camera outstations including enabling and disabling them, setting their speed thresholds, instigating the outstations to perform a self test and recovery of evidential and log data on demand. The instation is intuitive to use and includes a map interface to provide visualisation of the speed enforcement locations and their current status.
Edited by andyuk911 on Monday 18th February 19:09
andyuk911 said:
are they from J5 J6 of the M20 ?
Not sure - but they are from a HADECS installation.The Highways Agency has confirmed that the Gatso wet-film cameras are being replaced 'on a like for like basis' with HADECS digital units. For one, the Gatso units are life expired and secondly, the switch to digital removes a number of health & safety issues for the technicians who would have loaded / unloaded the Gatso film rolls.
Unless the Home Office has covertly amended the type approval conditions for the HADECS system, then enforcement using this system is ONLY approved at speed limits of up to and including 60mph..
HADECS Section 20 Certificate
2.8 Enforcement
In order to achieve compliance with the Operational Regimes, it will be necessary to enforce them. Digital speed enforcement equipment will be used to automatically enforce variable speed limits (including national speed limit).
The enforcement of variable speed limits will be undertaken utilising experience gained from the M25 Controlled Motorways Scheme (whereby a 1 minute grace period will be allowed for vehicles passing under variable signals that have changed before the enforcement cameras will begin enforcing that new speed limit).
In order to achieve compliance with the Operational Regimes, it will be necessary to enforce them. Digital speed enforcement equipment will be used to automatically enforce variable speed limits (including national speed limit).
The enforcement of variable speed limits will be undertaken utilising experience gained from the M25 Controlled Motorways Scheme (whereby a 1 minute grace period will be allowed for vehicles passing under variable signals that have changed before the enforcement cameras will begin enforcing that new speed limit).
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