Set the pace - Make the commitment
Discussion
GreenV8S said:
But so few of our roads actually have cameras on. Why can't people observe the limits in these few areas & they have more discretion applied elsewhere ? Why make it so hard for themselves when a bit of common sense to where & when you use speed actually sees you OK ?
Or is it because common sense is actually not that common ?
This is a change from the puritanical attitude you've shown to date. Are you saying that you condone drivers exceeding the speed limit (where it is safe to do so) as long as there are no speed cameras?
Edited to add: I appreciate that it's something that you might not choose to do yourself.
I don't condone it, I'm talking about it from a purely practical view of their enforcement.
If you break the limit you are leaving yourself open to prosecution, but if people are sensible they have far less risk of being prosecuted.
I have said that I favour enforcement by Police officers using discretion over the use of cameras (just that cameras will be needed in some targeted areas). I have said that consistently.
Does that mean I condone speeding ?..........No.
Because I don't condone it, does it mean I reported every speeder I have ever witnessed ?.......No.
I've used discretion & targeted the worst offenders & or those also commiting other offences.
>> Edited by vonhosen on Wednesday 12th April 00:10
safespeed said:
Skill levels are dropping. SURELY you have noticed?
You could easily blame ABS, traction control etc & the modern car for skill levels dropping. The modern car takes such a hand in keeping people on the road & is so forgiving, that people never develop good handling skills. They are less involved in the act of driving & it requires less concentration because of it in a modern car. Is that a bad thing ?
In the 60s we got disc brakes and radial ply tyres. (etc)
In the 70s we got crumple zones and seat belts fitted. (etc)
In fact engineering safety benefits have been coming at a steady pace since the dawn of motoring (or at least since the second world war).
But this 'de-skilling' effect has only emerged in about the last decade or so.
And you KNOW my hypothesis fits your experience perfectly.
vonhosen said:
The majority of roads I travel on & teach this craft have no cameras on.
But the drivers on those roads are used to driving on roads with cameras and to some greater or lesser extent are driving in fear of losing their licences.
But so few of our roads actually have cameras on. Why can't people observe the limits in these few areas & they have more discretion applied elsewhere ? Why make it so hard for themselves when a bit of common sense to where & when you use speed actually sees you OK ?
Or is it because common sense is actually not that common ?
People are people. They are road safety's raw material. Whatever we do we cannot make them perfect. But we can change them little by little. We can help them improve their skills year on year or we can do the opposite. I know we'll agree about the right direction to shift in.
But skills acquisition for an average driver is about much much more than formal training. It's about beliefs, experiences, understanding and developing knowledge. Many of the real skills (hazard perception, visual scan, risk assessment) are subconscious. We should never create an environment that promotes reduction in skills, but that's what we're doing. That's ONE of the speed camera side effects. That's ONE of the reasons why I gave up well paid work to struggle as a road safety campaigner.
Und also - we are teaching people to look for one hazard only.. camera/van...or anything which look like one..
Pavlov dog effect at camera.. but they do not seem to see the cyclist.. the pedestrian .. the car at the T-junction... or even the numpty in row of parked cars..
We have a campaign saying "30 for reason" .. but we are not teaching how to see the little girl in danger to herself und ourselves - nor teaching the little girl und her little brother to respect the road und cross it safely.
Thus - we fail to adress the real issue und complacently fasten on one single issue ... because this one ist "easy money box" und spun out of all reality.
vonhosen said:
I don't condone it, I'm talking about it from a purely practical view of their enforcement.
That's pretty reasonable as far as it goes. I agree that the insidious march of speed cameras has only covered a small part of the road network so far, and it is currently possible to drive round the problem. But I don't suppose that will always be the case. The principle remains though, that strict enforcement of the speed limit is a mistake and it is a mistake which is growing year by year.
WildCat said:
Skill levels are dropping. SURELY you have noticed?
You could easily blame ABS, traction control etc & the modern car for skill levels dropping.
Using ABS properly take some skill .. you have to understand how these work for them to protect you properly. We are not training well enough
vonhosen said:
The modern car takes such a hand in keeping people on the road & is so forgiving, that people never develop good handling skills. They are less involved in the act of driving & it requires less concentration because of it in a modern car. Is that a bad thing ?
Garbage.. You HAVE to UNDERSTAND HOW the SAFETY GIZMO WORK to be able to handle the car. Thus skills are depleting.. because we sell these to masses as "not requiring thought"
It is a BAD thing - if we do not teach how to use the gadgets.. we see this in sat nav leading people to drive along roads which common sense say not used since Adam were a lad ..und we have the Belgians thinking cruise control mean "carry on .. it will brake for us.."
Of course ist a bad thing.. to allwo everything to be dumbed down..
The BRAIN ist a MUSCLE... it gget even more muscly if USED
Neanderthals!
It's not garbage.
You can get a modern car (say BMW) put it on a skidpan with it's safety systems enabled, full throttle & steer around the skidpan , it will totally regulate the drive to the wheels for you.
Turn off the safety systems & do the same thing you are spinning.
People aren't taught what the safety systems do though. You ask average Joe on the street what ABS does & they'll say helps you stop in a shorter distance, they have no understanding that in some circumstances it will lead to possibly longer braking distances & is really about retaining some steering ability under firm braking.
I wonder how different things would be today if man had never developed a way of measuring speed?
Your driving would have to be judged on it's merits alone, simply comparing it to a number would never have existed. No cameras or Speed Camera Partnerships would exist.
The likes of Von and 7db would have the very foundations of their narrow minded arguments destroyed. How about that Von, people would be overtaking without having the benefit of a speedo, tut tut!
I think the thought and planning people would put into their driving would also be higher.
Sadly, it's all happening the opposite way. More and more importance is being given to mere numbers, with a whole industry built around it, and Von talks of common sense?
Your driving would have to be judged on it's merits alone, simply comparing it to a number would never have existed. No cameras or Speed Camera Partnerships would exist.
The likes of Von and 7db would have the very foundations of their narrow minded arguments destroyed. How about that Von, people would be overtaking without having the benefit of a speedo, tut tut!
I think the thought and planning people would put into their driving would also be higher.
Sadly, it's all happening the opposite way. More and more importance is being given to mere numbers, with a whole industry built around it, and Von talks of common sense?
vonhosen said:
Skill levels are dropping. SURELY you have noticed?
You could easily blame ABS, traction control etc & the modern car for skill levels dropping.
Using ABS properly take some skill .. you have to understand how these work for them to protect you properly. We are not training well enough
vonhosen said:
The modern car takes such a hand in keeping people on the road & is so forgiving, that people never develop good handling skills. They are less involved in the act of driving & it requires less concentration because of it in a modern car. Is that a bad thing ?
Garbage.. You HAVE to UNDERSTAND HOW the SAFETY GIZMO WORK to be able to handle the car. Thus skills are depleting.. because we sell these to masses as "not requiring thought"
It is a BAD thing - if we do not teach how to use the gadgets.. we see this in sat nav leading people to drive along roads which common sense say not used since Adam were a lad ..und we have the Belgians thinking cruise control mean "carry on .. it will brake for us..
Of course ist a bad thing.. to allwo everything to be dumbed down..
The BRAIN ist a MUSCLE... it gget even more muscly if USED
Neanderthals!
It's not garbage.
You can get a modern car (say BMW) put it on a skidpan with it's safety systems enabled, full throttle & steer around the skidpan , it will totally regulate the drive to the wheels for you.
Turn off the safety systems & do the same thing you are spinning.
People aren't taught what the safety systems do though. You ask average Joe on the street what ABS does & they'll say helps you stop in a shorter distance, they have no understanding that in some circumstances it will lead to possibly longer braking distances & is really about retaining some steering ability under firm braking.
That the case... then we would not have any complaints over non-gritting in winter und we would not have accidents.
Lot of accidents in High Alps .. due to ice .. black ice.. white ice .. und these are also in Mercs.. BMW.. VW.. Volvo...
You still have to KNOW how these are working to be able to remain in control
Not all models are the ones James Bond managed to wreck in that film
Ja.. we agree that people do not know what ABS does or even how it works or how to use it to save their skins.
because the powers that be only talk of speed cameras und use all resources to this effect
WildCat said:
It's not garbage.
You can get a modern car (say BMW) put it on a skidpan with it's safety systems enabled, full throttle & steer around the skidpan , it will totally regulate the drive to the wheels for you.
Turn off the safety systems & do the same thing you are spinning.
People aren't taught what the safety systems do though. You ask average Joe on the street what ABS does & they'll say helps you stop in a shorter distance, they have no understanding that in some circumstances it will lead to possibly longer braking distances & is really about retaining some steering ability under firm braking.
That the case... then we would not have any complaints over non-gritting in winter und we would not have accidents.
Lot of accidents in High Alps .. due to ice .. black ice.. white ice .. und these are also in Mercs.. BMW.. VW.. Volvo...
You still have to KNOW how these are working to be able to remain in control
Not all models are the ones James Bond managed to wreck in that film
Ja.. we agree that people do not know what ABS does or even how it works or how to use it to save their skins.
because the powers that be only talk of speed cameras und use all resources to this effect
Ah but there's the difference you see. The car on the skidpan has got the speed for the circumstances right, the car just covers for the poor control of inputs by the driver. When the driver chooses the speed first before entering the poor conditions (as in your ice) the car can't remove that excessive speed, it can only counter the pedal inputs of the driver.
But not all resources are aimed at cameras, most trafpol do little speed enforcement concentrating on other offences. What has "think bike" advertising got to do with speed cameras, or seat belt adverts, or adverts about kids walking into the road without looking. Or mobile phone use enforcement, provision of more rest stops etc etc ?
Resources are not directed at cameras, because they are self sufficient due to people not being able to observe the warning signs. The only time they are a drain on other road safety resources, is when speeders don't speed. Because then the SCP partners have to foot the bill for running the cameras, instead of the motorist. And guess what, they wouldn't be keeping them then.
>> Edited by vonhosen on Wednesday 12th April 06:49
deeps said:
I wonder how different things would be today if man had never developed a way of measuring speed?
Your driving would have to be judged on it's merits alone, simply comparing it to a number would never have existed. No cameras or Speed Camera Partnerships would exist.
The likes of Von and 7db would have the very foundations of their narrow minded arguments destroyed. How about that Von, people would be overtaking without having the benefit of a speedo, tut tut!
I think the thought and planning people would put into their driving would also be higher.
Sadly, it's all happening the opposite way. More and more importance is being given to mere numbers, with a whole industry built around it, and Von talks of common sense?
I don't mind (in principle) if we don't have speed limits. All I say is that make sure that the drivers are equipped to deal with it first, which I don't think they are. If everyone was trained to the correct levels & concentrated sufficiently on their driving instead of other things whilst trying to drive, we wouldn't need them.
vonhosen said:
It's not garbage.
You can get a modern car (say BMW) put it on a skidpan with it's safety systems enabled, full throttle & steer around the skidpan , it will totally regulate the drive to the wheels for you.
Turn off the safety systems & do the same thing you are spinning.
People aren't taught what the safety systems do though. You ask average Joe on the street what ABS does & they'll say helps you stop in a shorter distance, they have no understanding that in some circumstances it will lead to possibly longer braking distances & is really about retaining some steering ability under firm braking.
That the case... then we would not have any complaints over non-gritting in winter und we would not have accidents.
Lot of accidents in High Alps .. due to ice .. black ice.. white ice .. und these are also in Mercs.. BMW.. VW.. Volvo...
You still have to KNOW how these are working to be able to remain in control
Not all models are the ones James Bond managed to wreck in that film
Ja.. we agree that people do not know what ABS does or even how it works or how to use it to save their skins.
because the powers that be only talk of speed cameras und use all resources to this effect
Ah but there's the difference you see. The car on the skidpan has got the speed for the circumstances right, the car just covers for the poor control of inputs by the driver.
Ja.. when I did a skid course und a braking course ages ago.. speed was at correct speed.. und we were having fun
But... did not have the fancy doo-dahs.... in them days
Have driven one of these cars on this kind of course since.. but you still have to know how it kick in to understand what ist doing.
Too many would panic und undermine it if not conversant with the car's mechanics in this respect.
Thus .. we still have a skill deficit despite people shelling out cash by bucket load for these cars... und they are usually them daft football players
vonhosen said:
When the driver chooses the speed first before entering the poor conditions (as in your ice) the car can't remove that excessive speed, it can only counter the pedal inputs of the driver.
But it cannot control their panic steering as they undermine this "intelligent car"
vonhosen said:
But not all resources are aimed at cameras, most trafpol do little speed enforcement concentrating on other offences.
Yep.. with mobile speed guns ...
vonhosen said:
What has "think bike" advertising got to do with speed cameras,
You mean the yellow placard telling bikers that they risk dying if they ride too fast?
Or the advert we see about twice per year showing the weavery biker ...which show danger of blind spot to both..
vonhosen said:
or seat belt adverts,
Ist not on the telly all the time... Sir Jimmy's Clunk Click ran each commercial break.. these do not..
vonhosen said:
or adverts about kids walking into the road without looking.
Now you are being silly.. the only advert ist the one with the silly hedgehogs iund ist not on kids' TV that often. Last time we saw it was couple of years agao on C5 - in morning. Lukas liked a programme on there in which the catchprhase from the hero was
GOING-G-G-G TUR-R-RB-B-O-OH! It feature on the motorway still... 
vonhosen said:
Or mobile phone use enforcement,
Bolton Evening News und Radio 2 prog last December reported almost every driver using these pesky things..
Ist not being curbed or reduced ....
No Police Officers.. Just SCAMERAS!
vonhosen said:
provision of more rest stops etc etc ?
Where? There are only services on M6... every 20 -30 miles or so.und a couple further north - longer gaps... .Und there are one or two still with none
vonhosen said:
Resources are not directed at cameras, because they are self sufficient due to people not being able to observe the warning signs. The only time they are a drain on other road safety resources, is when speeders don't speed. Because then the SCP partners have to foot the bill for running the cameras, instead of the motorist. And guess what, they wouldn't be keeping them then.
>> Edited by vonhosen on Wednesday 12th April 06:49
Set up costs were funded by TAXPAYERS in first place.. und they only create non-jobs for the terminally inept to do anything else..
Wonder what will happen when they are not allowed to keep the cash .. und they have to nab so many to pay salaries und operate..
Hence the money box positioning which has nothing to do with safety - und we all know police time has not been directed to burglary or even rape these days.. warrant only a caution und NO FINE!
apparently vonhosen said:
I don't mind (in principle) if we don't have speed limits. All I say is that make sure that the drivers are equipped to deal with it first, which I don't think they are. If everyone was trained to the correct levels & concentrated sufficiently on their driving instead of other things whilst trying to drive, we wouldn't need them.
You feeling OK? Heavens..
vonhosen said:
The car on the skidpan has got the speed for the circumstances right, the car just covers for the poor control of inputs by the driver.
So it covers for the drivers inadequacies vis a vis speed, but out on the road when these same pricks are tailgating,not paying attention,using poor/no lane discipline and worse, then its buggered, and theyre still pricks doing what we all hate: Driving like a prick.
Theyve learned nothing! Just "drive to the signs" its safe if you do.
Gadgets on cars should be used in a training mode to develop better driver skills, not to just dumbe those skills down to the level of a speed limit sign!
vonhosen said:
I don't mind (in principle) if we don't have speed limits. All I say is that make sure that the drivers are equipped to deal with it first, which I don't think they are. If everyone was trained to the correct levels & concentrated sufficiently on their driving instead of other things whilst trying to drive, we wouldn't need them.
best thing I've seen you write since I've been here. Couldn't agree more.
I've never really considered before just how much impact the current scamera ethos from the powers that be has impacted on other aspects of motoring enlightenment.
Of course, as I've said before, the simplest way for the goverment to improve the road safety statistics is to not spend a penny more on scam's, and start doing something about the appaling standards that will get you through a UK test. I'd also like to know WHY there is no requirement for you to pass any further test before being allowed on the motorway?!!! You pass, get in the car for your first solo..... and hit a motorway. You've never driven on one, never experienced one, and yet it's the fastest type of road we have and requires excellent spacial awareness at all times.
On reflection I disagree about Vonhosen's assertion that drivers are not competent to judge a safe speed in excess of the speed limit. I'm sure that it would be possible to move so far beyond the speed that the driver has experience of that this was true, but I don't think that 20% here or there should represent any particular problem for a competant driver. People are already doing this routinely without any apparent problems.
7db said:If you're really Lobby Ludd I want the ten shillings
One bit confused me, however, who are "people like me"?
I dont think i need to elaborate any further on that. You already KNOW who and what you are.
It's true. I do. I want to know what you think - or aren't you the type to stand by your remarks.
vonhosen said:
I wonder how different things would be today if man had never developed a way of measuring speed?
Your driving would have to be judged on it's merits alone, simply comparing it to a number would never have existed. No cameras or Speed Camera Partnerships would exist.
The likes of Von and 7db would have the very foundations of their narrow minded arguments destroyed. How about that Von, people would be overtaking without having the benefit of a speedo, tut tut!
I think the thought and planning people would put into their driving would also be higher.
Sadly, it's all happening the opposite way. More and more importance is being given to mere numbers, with a whole industry built around it, and Von talks of common sense?
I don't mind (in principle) if we don't have speed limits. All I say is that make sure that the drivers are equipped to deal with it first, which I don't think they are. If everyone was trained to the correct levels & concentrated sufficiently on their driving instead of other things whilst trying to drive, we wouldn't need them.
A recurring argument on this site in the past has been for the need for a tougher test and thus (in theory) better drivers and less need for the(misguided) enforcement we have now.
Speed cameras don't make an unsafe driver any safer though.
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