Uninsured Car Question - Legality

[Man from UNCLE]

I think I must be missing something here?

You declared your car sorn but didn't use the ved disc refund application, haven't returned the disc & you think your disc will still be valid till it's expiry date?

Surely as saaby93 has pointed out they will just cancel the disc from the end of this month & as you didn't request a refund you'll get nothing. If they don't cancel your disc the whole system is beyond stupid.

[saaby93]

Man from UNCLE said:

I think I must be missing something here?

You declared your car sorn but didn't use the ved disc refund application, haven't returned the disc & you think your disc will still be valid till it's expiry date?

Surely as saaby93 has pointed out they will just cancel the disc from the end of this month & as you didn't request a refund you'll get nothing. If they don't cancel your disc the whole system is beyond stupid.

Your missing the point of SORN
You can declare SORN whenver you want but you have to do it if your insurance or your tax runs out. Declaring SORN doesnt immediately invalidate your tax or your insurance.
If you have your motorhome safe on your drive you can declare it SORN even though it's taxed and insured ( and it will have to be taxed and insured before you can unSORN) so if some scrote steals it the ANPR machines will flag it as being used onroad.

[B'stard Child]

Man from UNCLE said:

I think I must be missing something here?

You declared your car sorn but didn't use the ved disc refund application, haven't returned the disc & you think your disc will still be valid till it's expiry date?

Surely as saaby93 has pointed out they will just cancel the disc from the end of this month & as you didn't request a refund you'll get nothing. If they don't cancel your disc the whole system is beyond stupid.

Like I said in the other thread - it's early days

Whole system stupid - nothing DVLA have ever done is stupid surely?

DVLA have tied CI into SORN

SORN is "Declaring a vehicle off the road" Statement

Now I can't think of circumstances where you wouldn't surrender the disc but now with CI there is a clear example of exactly why you wouldn't surrender VED - but are required to decare SORN due to CI

This has muddied the waters.

I spent a fair bit of time putting it all down on paper last night - it's still in draft but I reckon I have enough time to get clarrification from DVLA

If I need to get a refund on VED cos the disc is Void - then I'll do that as a result of a reply form them

I was more concerned about the failure to comply with the CI element

And as far as muddy water goes I may have to just give it a good stir...

[saaby93]

B'stard Child said:

DVLA have tied CI into SORN

No - they've tied SORN to VED without looking up the legislation which allows you to keep it taxed while SORNed
They've assumed that if you SORNed you'd want your tax cancelled
or that was the premise before you managed to SORN but keep you disc

[B'stard Child]

saaby93 said:

B'stard Child said:

DVLA have tied CI into SORN

No - they've tied SORN to VED without looking up the legislation which allows you to keep it taxed while SORNed
They've assumed that if you SORNed you'd want your tax cancelled
or that was the premise before you managed to SORN but keep you disc

OK - either is fine

My point remains the same SORN and I'm sorry for labouring the point but SORN is a "statutory of the road notice" - Statement made to declare the vehicle off the road. which I need to do to be compliant with the changes brought about by CI

[saaby93]

B'stard Child said:

I spent a fair bit of time putting it all down on paper last night - it's still in draft but I reckon I have enough time to get clarrification from DVLA

If I need to get a refund on VED cos the disc is Void - then I'll do that as a result of a reply form them

Or confirm you didnt ask for your disc to be voided and it doesn't have to happen

[Durzel]

I find the new system so confusing...

I'm in the process of selling my old car having bought a new one to replace it early this month. Had no idea about this change to the system until after the deal had been done.

I've currently got my old car parked off road, it is taxed until November 2011, has MOT, etc. I had to cancel the insurance policy I had on it because I also found out that you can't use your No Claims Discount on two policies concurrently (at least not with seperate companies). The insurance on my new car - which is now my daily driver - would've been prohibitively expensive without utilising my full NCD bonus.

So I had basically planned to insure my old car on a day-basis, i.e. someone says they're coming down to view, I insure it for a day for the purposes of the test drive, etc.

As I understand it now since my car is (as I write this) uninsured, I should expect to receive an automated letter in due course warning me about this new system and that I will get a fine if I don't rectify it.

For someone in my position what are my options other than insuring a car I have no intention of driving, which won't move from where it's parked? If I declare it SORN I'll have to unSORN (or whatever) every time I get someone coming to test drive it, and reSORN it again straight away afterwards. This seems like such a ridiculous state of affairs that I can't believe there isn't some sort of concession being made for people legitimately trying to sell cars they no longer drive?

Help!

[B'stard Child]

saaby93 said:

B'stard Child said:

I spent a fair bit of time putting it all down on paper last night - it's still in draft but I reckon I have enough time to get clarrification from DVLA

If I need to get a refund on VED cos the disc is Void - then I'll do that as a result of a reply form them

Or confirm you didnt ask for your disc to be voided and it doesn't have to happen

Good point - I hadn't been as specific as to request that.

[zaphod42]

Durzel.

You can't use your no claims twice - you are right - but you can get a "shadow" or "mirror" policy that will reflect the no claims from you main car, but not build a separate "no claims"

In these cases the big companies are less useful. Talk to a broker and explain what you need. I have found Adrian Flux and Saffron to be very helpful.

[saaby93]

zaphod42 said:

Durzel.
You can't use your no claims twice - you are right - but you can get a "shadow" or "mirror" policy that will reflect the no claims from you main car, but not build a separate "no claims"

In these cases the big companies are less useful. Talk to a broker and explain what you need. I have found Adrian Flux and Saffron to be very helpful.

he already has insurance.
In the good old days you could have a month or so grace to sell your old car while driving your new one - both being covered but they guessed you could only drive one at a time

[Durzel]

Simpler times...

What I don't get about this new rule - unless I'm missing something very obvious - is that they say it's intended to catch uninsured drivers, but someone driving without insurance would surely just fraudulently declare their car SORN anyway, especially with cognisance of this new rule? If they can't afford (or don't want to) the insurance why would they pay for tax?

The dumb thing now is that if I declared my old car SORN I'd probably have less chance of being caught opportunistically by a passing cop/ANPR van than I would by an automated system that will presumably be sending me a letter because it's detected that my car is not SORN'd and uninsured?

[B'stard Child]

Durzel said:

Simpler times...

What I don't get about this new rule - unless I'm missing something very obvious - is that they say it's intended to catch uninsured drivers, but someone driving without insurance would surely just fraudulently declare their car SORN anyway, especially with cognisance of this new rule? If they can't afford (or don't want to) the insurance why would they pay for tax?

1.4 million cars out there apparently uninsured

Cost every motorist £30 (according to what I've read or heard)

I totally agree with you - it's not going to catch anyone who is already breaking the law re-insurance or VED because they don't care now

Any fines will arrive by post and in most cases people who drive illegally won't be recorded at DVLA as registered keepers.

Durzel said:

The dumb thing now is that if I declared my old car SORN I'd probably have less chance of being caught opportunistically by a passing cop/ANPR van than I would by an automated system that will presumably be sending me a letter because it's detected that my car is not SORN'd and uninsured?

Agreed - totally

[Hot Dog Harrigan]

saaby93 said:

our missing the point of SORN
You can declare SORN whenver you want but you have to do it if your insurance or your tax runs out. Declaring SORN doesnt immediately invalidate your tax or your insurance.
If you have your motorhome safe on your drive you can declare it SORN even though it's taxed and insured ( and it will have to be taxed and insured before you can unSORN) so if some scrote steals it the ANPR machines will flag it as being used onroad.

Ok I think I'm with ya, I'd been thinking that if your disc hadn't expired when declaring sorn for lack of insurance it was then a requirement to return it.

ETA... I've never had to deal with this situation so excuse the naive questions, but if you sorn a car with valid ved & insurance how would you un-sorn it? I thought you un-sorn a vehicle by renewing the ved disc but if it already has a valid one what would happen?

Edited by Hot Dog Harrigan on Wednesday 22 June 17:20

[Hot Dog Harrigan]

B'stard Child said:

Like I said in the other thread - it's early days

Whole system stupid - nothing DVLA have ever done is stupid surely?

DVLA have tied CI into SORN

SORN is "Declaring a vehicle off the road" Statement

Now I can't think of circumstances where you wouldn't surrender the disc but now with CI there is a clear example of exactly why you wouldn't surrender VED - but are required to decare SORN due to CI

This has muddied the waters.

I spent a fair bit of time putting it all down on paper last night - it's still in draft but I reckon I have enough time to get clarrification from DVLA

If I need to get a refund on VED cos the disc is Void - then I'll do that as a result of a reply form them

I was more concerned about the failure to comply with the CI element

And as far as muddy water goes I may have to just give it a good stir...

I think I'm slowly getting it now.

[B'stard Child]

Hot Dog Harrigan said:

saaby93 said:

our missing the point of SORN
You can declare SORN whenver you want but you have to do it if your insurance or your tax runs out. Declaring SORN doesnt immediately invalidate your tax or your insurance.
If you have your motorhome safe on your drive you can declare it SORN even though it's taxed and insured ( and it will have to be taxed and insured before you can unSORN) so if some scrote steals it the ANPR machines will flag it as being used onroad.

Ok I think I'm with ya, I'd been thinking that if your disc hadn't expired when declaring sorn for lack of insurance it was then a requirement to return it.

That seems to be what everyone thinks and possibly what DVLA would like to happen

However the on-line process doesn't stop you and say

"warning the current VED with months remaining must be returned for a refund"

it just links to a refund application form

Nowhere does it say applying for a refund is mandatory and nowhere does it say after SORN the VED is void

[Hot Dog Harrigan]

This is why I hang out here sometimes, because I learn stuff like this. It also makes me wonder why I need to learn from here & why doesn't the dvla ever make this stuff clear & simple.

[B'stard Child]

Hot Dog Harrigan said:

This is why I hang out here sometimes, because I learn stuff like this. It also makes me wonder why I need to learn from here & why doesn't the dvla ever make this stuff clear & simple.

Everyday is a school day for me too - I'll stop learning when I'm dead

DVLA make stuff simple - I guess they think it is

[Hot Dog Harrigan]

Hot Dog Harrigan said:

ETA... I've never had to deal with this situation so excuse the naive questions, but if you sorn a car with valid ved & insurance how would you un-sorn it? I thought you un-sorn a vehicle by renewing the ved disc but if it already has a valid one what would happen?

Ok I've just discovered the other thread, still not much wiser though.

[saaby93]

Hot Dog Harrigan said:

Hot Dog Harrigan said:

ETA... I've never had to deal with this situation so excuse the naive questions, but if you sorn a car with valid ved & insurance how would you un-sorn it? I thought you un-sorn a vehicle by renewing the ved disc but if it already has a valid one what would happen?

Ok I've just discovered the other thread, still not much wiser though.

Well that thread is about how to unsorn
The short answer is that you dont need to
If you have insurance and tax it's not illegal to drive a SORNed vehicle on road.
Until DVLA post up a unSORN form it stays listed as SORN until next tax renewal or you sell it.

[Pontoneer]

caziques said:

Are people actually paid to think up this sort of rubbish!

So, if your insurance on a classic car runs out, you have to send a free tax disc to DVLA and declare SORN? Utter madness.

What happens with a motor traders insurance policy? or test driving?

I have two classic cars which are SORN exempt ( they have not been on the road since before SORN started ) and neither is insured ( both kept off road as well , of course ) . Both cars are registered to me , so it will be interesting to see what occurs - through the fundamental premise that they are exempt from SORN , I will be annoyed if anything comes of this - although I can obviously obtain 'laid up' cover which does not involve road risks and is therefore very cheap to obtain . Classic insurance for each car normally runs at about £100 each , so not a huge amount , but there is a principle at stake .

I also have a couple of newer cars , one fully legal and in use , the other also on SORN , but insured , and could be MOT'd/Taxed at any time .