Threatened Dismissal - Options?
Discussion
RZ1 said:
If your missus looses her job I would have a bloody good moan, at the end of the day mistakes can be made. For 1 pupil out of 500 to get the wrong meal is very impressive and shows the missus has done a good job.
In this case the 13 year old kid should be held responsible, as a Muslim we know from a young age what to eat and what not to eat, if were not sure, then ask if the meat is halal.
This.In this case the 13 year old kid should be held responsible, as a Muslim we know from a young age what to eat and what not to eat, if were not sure, then ask if the meat is halal.
Only (assuming 15th of June to be fair) there have been 26 weeks of meals at (assuming a steady increase in number of students taking lunch) 400 meals per day. That is 2000 meals per week (plus any extra for breakfast (let's not get into the kids asking for bacon at this time)). So that's 10,400 meals (I've assumed 14th of December as "Xmas meal day")per 1 mistake (OP pointed out this is the first mistake, if we'd call it that).
So a strike rate of 0.009615% chance of a meal being served in error. Or as it might sound better 99.990385% success rate.
How can they have issue with this?
Ridiculous!!
Best of wishes to you both.
About methods of slaughter: Kosher and Halal slaughter are pretty much identical, I think the only difference is the prayer (and there's nothing to prevent both being said). A lot of Jews/Muslims will eat the other sort of ritually-slaughtered meat if their own isn't available- and it's interesting how a lot more of the complaints I see are about halal than about kosher.
Depending on the size of the animal, these methods can be a lot less cruel- for instance, a chicken slaughtered in the kosher/halal manner will lose consciousness almost instantly (though being the proverbial headless chicken afterwards it may well run around like one). I have read studies saying that these methods are preferable for chickens from an animal-welfare standpoint. It may be more difficult to ensure a quick clean kill with larger animals (sheep and especially cattle), I'm not sure. They are supposed to use an extremely sharp knife that severs the arteries to the brain and the windpipe (and possibly the spine as well) in one cut. Certainly for shechita (Kosher slaughter) there's a lot of oversight and some other cruelty-related rules- for instance the animal cannot see the knife or other animals being killed before it is killed. It's much less of a production-line, so less chance of animals going on to the next stage before they're sufficiently dead.
And as for why an Indian restaurant would say "no Halal"- Sikhs aren't supposed to eat Halal meat if I remember rightly...
Depending on the size of the animal, these methods can be a lot less cruel- for instance, a chicken slaughtered in the kosher/halal manner will lose consciousness almost instantly (though being the proverbial headless chicken afterwards it may well run around like one). I have read studies saying that these methods are preferable for chickens from an animal-welfare standpoint. It may be more difficult to ensure a quick clean kill with larger animals (sheep and especially cattle), I'm not sure. They are supposed to use an extremely sharp knife that severs the arteries to the brain and the windpipe (and possibly the spine as well) in one cut. Certainly for shechita (Kosher slaughter) there's a lot of oversight and some other cruelty-related rules- for instance the animal cannot see the knife or other animals being killed before it is killed. It's much less of a production-line, so less chance of animals going on to the next stage before they're sufficiently dead.
And as for why an Indian restaurant would say "no Halal"- Sikhs aren't supposed to eat Halal meat if I remember rightly...
Marf said:
Carlton Banks said:
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Do you eat takeaways from curry houses?Oh, sorry I ruined your fun didn't I?
You were going to wait for him to say "yeah I eat curry" then go "oh well you eat halal then!!"
It depends where you are in the country regarding 'no halal' or not.
I would be amazed if this chap (Isaac Hunt) would have actually 'gone livid' if he had actually eaten Halal without consent or realising.
I am firmly in support of the OP and his Mrs as this situation is ridiculous.
However, comparing whether you eat Halal or not as a non Muslim is hardly comparable to a Muslim eating non Halal meat. One is by choice, one is by relgious requirements or beliefs.
That is the difference and the majority of non muslims are not bothered about whether they eat Halal or not.
Carlton Banks said:
However, comparing whether you eat Halal or not as a non Muslim is hardly comparable to a Muslim eating non Halal meat. One is by choice, one is by relgious requirements or beliefs.
Don't be dense. Both are by choice, religion is a choice. You make it sound like muslims are a different species unable to become anything else other than a muslim. ScoobyDood said:
Another advice request from the PH massive......
Some background
My partner is the head of a school kitchen at a ‘multi-cultural’ (Sikhs, Muslims, Christians and more) girls’ comprehensive in a major town in East Berkshire. She has been working there without issue since June last year. Prior to this, she has run her own (very successful) gastro-pub and for the 6 years prior to getting this latest employ was a supply teacher. She is also a trained counsellor (specialising in abused kids) and is an emergency foster carer for the local council.
At the school where she now works, she has introduced a policy of only preparing food using fresh ingredients and all to be prepared fresh on the day of consumption – Due to the school having Muslim kids all the meat is Halal – The school is on the verge of attaining 5-star status with regard meals which is not achieved by many. Kids taking school dinners have increased during her tenure from c250 per day to c 550 per day, even the staff indulge whereas before their absence was notable. She manages a staff of 8.
An issue has now arisen which will now likely lead to her dismissal (she is the boss and the buck stops there) and I am livid.
On the day the school were serving Christmas Lunch, it appears one of the canteen staff mistakenly gave a ‘pig in blanket’ to a Muslim student (the Christian element at the school insisted Christmas Lunch should not be Halal meat!!). Rather than ask for a new plate of food, the student waited until she was home and told her parents. They escalated to their (two!?!) mosques who contacted the school in the New Year looking for a scapegoat and threatening national press and pickets outside the school until action is taken. Now bear in mind my partner fields questions on a daily basis such as “is this custard Halal?” or “I’m a Muslim can I eat cheese?”. Should it really be her (or the school’s) responsibility to educate Muslim kids in the rules of Dhabihah??
The school governors meet this evening to decide my partner’s fate. The headmistress has on several occasions bowed to this type of external pressure before. My partner will likely lose a job she loves as it combines her 2 passions, cooking and working with kids.
Is there anything we can do??
Not sure what you can do, other than to stress that the incident was a result of an innocent mistake by a canteen staff member. Some background
My partner is the head of a school kitchen at a ‘multi-cultural’ (Sikhs, Muslims, Christians and more) girls’ comprehensive in a major town in East Berkshire. She has been working there without issue since June last year. Prior to this, she has run her own (very successful) gastro-pub and for the 6 years prior to getting this latest employ was a supply teacher. She is also a trained counsellor (specialising in abused kids) and is an emergency foster carer for the local council.
At the school where she now works, she has introduced a policy of only preparing food using fresh ingredients and all to be prepared fresh on the day of consumption – Due to the school having Muslim kids all the meat is Halal – The school is on the verge of attaining 5-star status with regard meals which is not achieved by many. Kids taking school dinners have increased during her tenure from c250 per day to c 550 per day, even the staff indulge whereas before their absence was notable. She manages a staff of 8.
An issue has now arisen which will now likely lead to her dismissal (she is the boss and the buck stops there) and I am livid.
On the day the school were serving Christmas Lunch, it appears one of the canteen staff mistakenly gave a ‘pig in blanket’ to a Muslim student (the Christian element at the school insisted Christmas Lunch should not be Halal meat!!). Rather than ask for a new plate of food, the student waited until she was home and told her parents. They escalated to their (two!?!) mosques who contacted the school in the New Year looking for a scapegoat and threatening national press and pickets outside the school until action is taken. Now bear in mind my partner fields questions on a daily basis such as “is this custard Halal?” or “I’m a Muslim can I eat cheese?”. Should it really be her (or the school’s) responsibility to educate Muslim kids in the rules of Dhabihah??
The school governors meet this evening to decide my partner’s fate. The headmistress has on several occasions bowed to this type of external pressure before. My partner will likely lose a job she loves as it combines her 2 passions, cooking and working with kids.
Is there anything we can do??
Notwithstanding that, this kind of nonsense really gets my goat (if you'll pardon the pun
)It's situations like this which make me understand why France is a secular society and extends this policy to its education system
BarnatosGhost said:
Who made the decision to change the all-halal policy for one Christmas meal?
After all, if the 100% halal policy was made for good reasons...
Erm. At the risk of missing something, surely a 100% halal policy would only be for religious reasons? And a Christmas meal...?After all, if the 100% halal policy was made for good reasons...
Next year, just ban Muslim kids from the Christmas meal.
I feel very sad for you and your wife in regards to this.
I also feel very sad that this has even been mentioned to your wife. Surely if you see something on your plate you don't go 'Oh my god it's ruined it's all ruined' or do you? Jesus, work in a garage for a week and man up. Same dirty fork, check, same dirty cup, check, Ah all is well in the world.
When I was a kid if I didn't like a food or food group, I did as kids do and left it. I didn't nip home and tell my folks.
Likewise I once ordered Cod for lunch and instead was served Haddock, should I have got the local fisheries agency involved?
Sad times when this is even coming to more than a quiet word, let along threatened dismissal.
I also feel very sad that this has even been mentioned to your wife. Surely if you see something on your plate you don't go 'Oh my god it's ruined it's all ruined' or do you? Jesus, work in a garage for a week and man up. Same dirty fork, check, same dirty cup, check, Ah all is well in the world.
When I was a kid if I didn't like a food or food group, I did as kids do and left it. I didn't nip home and tell my folks.
Likewise I once ordered Cod for lunch and instead was served Haddock, should I have got the local fisheries agency involved?
Sad times when this is even coming to more than a quiet word, let along threatened dismissal.
To be honest I would make an appointment with the Headmaster, put across some of the good bits of advice you received on here, maybe tell her that the accusee can not prove she received a PIB, possibly took one knowing what it was just to cause trouble at a later date. Mention that you will fight any punishment and that the papers will be informed, dont be walked all over.
0000 said:
BarnatosGhost said:
Who made the decision to change the all-halal policy for one Christmas meal?
After all, if the 100% halal policy was made for good reasons...
Erm. At the risk of missing something, surely a 100% halal policy would only be for religious reasons? And a Christmas meal...?After all, if the 100% halal policy was made for good reasons...
Next year, just ban Muslim kids from the Christmas meal.
The second policy - that for one day, the original 'sensible' policy didn't apply, and that the Chistmas meal (religious yes, but not specifically anti-halal) be specifically non-halal.
That isn't, on the face of it, a sensible decision. It isn't based on any religious requirement, and directly contravenes a previously agreed position.
So the people who made that decision introduced the possibility of this problem occurring. The OP's missus was not involved, and once the dunderheaded child knowingly took food from the wrong end of the counter, the 'disaster' was complete.
OP's missus was not to blame for any of it.
Forget the reasons for a moment.
Less than 12 months employment and you can be dismissed without reason (subject to minimum notice, unless gross misconduct), unless there is some element of discrimination.
So, OP's other half could be screwed there.
But, since this has a religious content, perhaps there is a case for discrimination.
For the dismissal to be 'safe' on the part of the school, I would expect meetings to have taken place to allow both sides to put forward their case.
I guess the school is taking the mosque seriously in what seems to be a threat to give adverse publicity, which does appear to have already been threatened.
Has the OH been offered the chance to attend the meeting that has been called? If not, why not ring (in view of short notice) and ask if this is possible. What would happen if the OH suggested that if she is censured for this she herself may publicise this? It puts the school in a position of pressure - Act and it gets public, don't act and it gets public. But by doing so you are dropping to the same level as the complainant.
Can the OH get written statements from work colleagues to back up the suggestions that muslims have been eating bacon? If dismissal takes place it may be more difficult to get these, I have known employers forbid ex-employees to be in contact with work colleagues (pretty impossible to enforce, but could make the situation difficult for those still employed).
If dismissal takes place, expect the employer to follow the stautory guidelines, and make an appeal as permitted by those guidelines. Not to do so weakens any case at tribunal.
If any appeal fails, an option is a tribunal. To stand the best chance of success, I would look at whether discrimination has occurred, purely because of the short length of service. I dont think the OP doesn't say what religion his OH is, but I will assume Christian, or at least non-muslim. So, if a non-muslim permits a muslim to request non permitted foods, and is sacked as a result, are they being discriminated against for not having knowledge of or not being of a particular faith? That is a question that a tribunal would have to consider. The aim that you have to have is to get the tribunal to hear the case with the short service. Can you see the difficulty and where I am coming from?
If you can get the matter settled without tribunal, so much the better. What I guess the school is looking for is a way to appease the mosque representatives, while doing the best for their employee.
All I can say is good luck.
Less than 12 months employment and you can be dismissed without reason (subject to minimum notice, unless gross misconduct), unless there is some element of discrimination.
So, OP's other half could be screwed there.
But, since this has a religious content, perhaps there is a case for discrimination.
For the dismissal to be 'safe' on the part of the school, I would expect meetings to have taken place to allow both sides to put forward their case.
I guess the school is taking the mosque seriously in what seems to be a threat to give adverse publicity, which does appear to have already been threatened.
Has the OH been offered the chance to attend the meeting that has been called? If not, why not ring (in view of short notice) and ask if this is possible. What would happen if the OH suggested that if she is censured for this she herself may publicise this? It puts the school in a position of pressure - Act and it gets public, don't act and it gets public. But by doing so you are dropping to the same level as the complainant.
Can the OH get written statements from work colleagues to back up the suggestions that muslims have been eating bacon? If dismissal takes place it may be more difficult to get these, I have known employers forbid ex-employees to be in contact with work colleagues (pretty impossible to enforce, but could make the situation difficult for those still employed).
If dismissal takes place, expect the employer to follow the stautory guidelines, and make an appeal as permitted by those guidelines. Not to do so weakens any case at tribunal.
If any appeal fails, an option is a tribunal. To stand the best chance of success, I would look at whether discrimination has occurred, purely because of the short length of service. I dont think the OP doesn't say what religion his OH is, but I will assume Christian, or at least non-muslim. So, if a non-muslim permits a muslim to request non permitted foods, and is sacked as a result, are they being discriminated against for not having knowledge of or not being of a particular faith? That is a question that a tribunal would have to consider. The aim that you have to have is to get the tribunal to hear the case with the short service. Can you see the difficulty and where I am coming from?
If you can get the matter settled without tribunal, so much the better. What I guess the school is looking for is a way to appease the mosque representatives, while doing the best for their employee.
All I can say is good luck.
Marf said:
Carlton Banks said:
However, comparing whether you eat Halal or not as a non Muslim is hardly comparable to a Muslim eating non Halal meat. One is by choice, one is by relgious requirements or beliefs.
Don't be dense. Both are by choice, religion is a choice. You make it sound like muslims are a different species unable to become anything else other than a muslim. If they are born to Muslim parents, certainly in their childhood and whilst they are living with their parents, it is unlikely that they will be able to choose their religion or decide to opt out of their faith thus remaining as Muslims and practising the faith at the levels that their parents do.
Most of the Muslim's I know hardly exude 'being muslim' but they generally avoid pork, eat Halal and try their best to avoid alcohol.
The implications of eating non Halal meat means something more to them than a non Muslim having an opinion about whether they choose to avoid Halal.
This can easily be demonstrated by asking Muslims whether they will eat meat that is not Halal - I would bet the majority will say they wouldn't.
I would imagine the non Muslim folks answers would range across the spectrum without obvious direction.
I think you are completely underestimating the 'choice' you believe Muslim children have.
Is it my turn for a rolleye smiley?
why is this the OP's problem?
If the pupils have been told that everything on offer is always halal, then the people who changed that rule for the day are to blame.
If the pupils were told that some of the food is halal and some isn't, and given the means to tell the difference, then it is the pupil's fault.
In this case we have the equivalent of the petrol station being held to blame for the hit-and-run.
If the pupils have been told that everything on offer is always halal, then the people who changed that rule for the day are to blame.
If the pupils were told that some of the food is halal and some isn't, and given the means to tell the difference, then it is the pupil's fault.
In this case we have the equivalent of the petrol station being held to blame for the hit-and-run.
I would be firm and frank with the Head, so to speak.
A member of kitchen staff has made a small and easily done mistake on one meal in a canteen serving several hundred people, in a short period of time.
Is there any suggestion that it was done maliciously? I doubt it.
And the resultant damage from that mistake? Was the pupil genuinely so offended? Have they stopped eating in the canteen since? Has she suffered any ill effect from the experience of sitting with a bacon covered sausage on the plate in front of her? Was it suggested she should eat it? Was she told she had to eat it? Have other children or parents prevented their children from eating in the canteen since? Is this an isolated incident or one of a number of similar events?
Muslims, by their nature as a minority, are going to be immersed in cultural differences that deviate from their own every single day of their lives in Great Britain. How do they deal with women not wearing head dress, or shopping in areas where the butchers are not halal? Or having to work around people who eat during the day throughout Ramadan? And so on.
Let's get this straight. It's one piece of food, that wasn't even eaten, accidentally on one plate in hundreds.
Not a Tribunal or Court in the land would support an employer sacking someone for such an act, especially when it wasn't even committed directly by the employee in question.
A member of kitchen staff has made a small and easily done mistake on one meal in a canteen serving several hundred people, in a short period of time.
Is there any suggestion that it was done maliciously? I doubt it.
And the resultant damage from that mistake? Was the pupil genuinely so offended? Have they stopped eating in the canteen since? Has she suffered any ill effect from the experience of sitting with a bacon covered sausage on the plate in front of her? Was it suggested she should eat it? Was she told she had to eat it? Have other children or parents prevented their children from eating in the canteen since? Is this an isolated incident or one of a number of similar events?
Muslims, by their nature as a minority, are going to be immersed in cultural differences that deviate from their own every single day of their lives in Great Britain. How do they deal with women not wearing head dress, or shopping in areas where the butchers are not halal? Or having to work around people who eat during the day throughout Ramadan? And so on.
Let's get this straight. It's one piece of food, that wasn't even eaten, accidentally on one plate in hundreds.
Not a Tribunal or Court in the land would support an employer sacking someone for such an act, especially when it wasn't even committed directly by the employee in question.
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