Getting out of the BiB's way etiquette.

[jbsportstech]

Snowboy said:

It's obviously not a case of ploughing through red lights without and visibility of other cars. It's about making an educated decision - something that everyone with a driving licence should be able to do.

But, I think the best answer is for you to do your thing and I'll do mine.
If we're side by side and a cop wants to get past then you stay still happy you are doing the right thing, and I'll get out if the way happy I'm doing the right thing.

Thats fair enough you seem to know better than anyone else so carry on, just know that you are open to full force of the law because you choose to ignore the warnings.

The only time I can think your will have a reasonable degree of safety attempting to give way at a red ligth is when you have blue lights and a siren to get peoples attention. Since alot of drivers lack basic concetration I cant se why one would want to enter their priority without warning equipment.

[Snowboy]

jbsportstech said:

Thats fair enough you seem to know better than anyone else so carry on, ...

Hmmm. Passive aggressive thinly veiled insults.
Not an entirely pleasant way to continue a discussion.

[Derek Smith]

rewc said:

A signal from a Police Officer on point duty is one thing, a person in an emergency vehicle behind you waving his arms about is something else. It would of course be a lot more sensible if emergency vehicle drivers had the law reinforced to them. It is for them to find a way round an obstruction without expecting others to break the law.

The definition of 'for the time being engaged in the regulation of traffic' has been tested on occasion and although there has not been a definition - of course not - the stated cases seem to point towards it being a matter of fact for the court to decide. What is clear is that it is not limited to 'point duty'.

One argument might be that a police vehicle on blues and twos is, by definition, regulating traffic to an extent. The driver is trying to clear a path.

If, as you suggest, a police officer is just 'waving his arms about' then this could not be construed as directing traffic (see later) but if the signal is clear then it might well be.

'For the time being' has included one vehicle being directed.

I would think that if a police officer directed a driver to cross the stop line at ATS then the driver should follow the direction.

In the case of the police officer 'waving his arms about', if the car driver thought that this was a clear signal to go over the stop line, then this might well be a defence even if the police officer was swatting a fly. There was a case of reckless (as was) driving where a police officer indicated to a bus driver to stop but the car immediately in front of the bus, a cab, thought the signal was for him and braked hard. The cab passenger was injured, as well as the driver and a number of people on the bus, but the prosecution was dropped as the cabbie believed the signal was for him.

However, the blues and twos are not a signal to breach any road traffic regulation. The signal must be clear in that case.

Take the index/identification number of the car in case.

[jbsportstech]

Snowboy said:

Hmmm. Passive aggressive thinly veiled insults.
Not an entirely pleasant way to continue a discussion.

What is there to continue? You have been given the government and court stance on the matter. You have blue light aware endorsed by many emergency service yet you choose to think you know better. Are you saying that your such a clever person that you think think you should be allowed some latitude in deciding whether to cross others priority in order to allow an emergency vehicle? Is that your arguement?

I woud start praticing now, emerging from red lights without coming into conflict with other road users have priority. If caught simply explain that you are practicing so you can do it in an emergency to allow a blue light vehicle through.

Emergency service drivers have traing to carry out such a manouver what makes you think you can pull it off under pressure of a blue light vehicle, sounds like a receipe for an accident.

Edited by jbsportstech on Monday 3rd March 08:41

[paintman]

jbsportstech said:

Iam sorry but whilst well intentioned you should not be driving through red lights. They are red for a reason and you are risking your life and others and it's not your place. A police officer can direct you through a red light if they feel it's justified otherwise you don't know what they are doing May just bee training drive and your ploughing through a a red lights also people have been proscutd as the official advice is don't and your excuse is not valid.

Not in my force area. On driving courses all signs & lines MUST be complied with - with the exception of the 60mph or 70mph National Speed Limits on NSL roads (if a road has 60 signs then those must be complied with).
When I did my advanced test at course end the briefing by the examiner was that if you failed to comply with ANY signage then you would fail the course at that point. No 'ifs' 'ands' or 'buts'. You got exactly the same briefing for any police vehicle driving test, whether on your final drive or on one of the periodic check tests & refreshers.
Same rules during the course, all signs & lines must be complied with. Expect a bking from the instructor if you don't.
And all our training was in unmarked vehicles. No lights or sirens fitted.

ETA. And when on normal duty if you are going to a job and trigger a speed camera or traffic light camera expect an enquiry - complete with photos - to arrive requiring you to explain why you failed to comply.

Edited by paintman on Monday 3rd March 08:59

[Snowboy]

jbsportstech said:

Snowboy said:

Hmmm. Passive aggressive thinly veiled insults.
Not an entirely pleasant way to continue a discussion.

What is there to continue? You have been given the government and court stance on the matter. You have blue light aware endorsed by many emergency service yet you choose to think you know better. Are you saying that your such a clever person that you think think you should be allowed some latitude in deciding whether to cross others priority in order to allow an emergency vehicle? Is that your arguement?

I woud start praticing now, emerging from red lights without coming into conflict with other road users have priority. If caught simply explain that you are practicing so you can do it in an emergency to allow a blue light vehicle through.

Emergency service drivers have traing to carry out such a manouver what makes you think you can pull it off under pressure of a blue light vehicle, sounds like a receipe for an accident.

Edited by jbsportstech on Monday 3rd March 08:41

Now your just being absurd
Your first paragraph was interesting. But ended with a loaded question.
Your following two paragraphs are just pathetic trolling.

But, to try and answer your question from the first paragraph.

Yes. I think I'm clever enough to decide if it's safe to cross a red light if an emergency vehicle wants to get past.
If I think it's safe I'll cross, if I don't I won't.
If I end up in court defending that decision then I'm willing to do that.

I consider a siren an indication from a cop to move.
I would be happy to defend my stance in court.

[jbsportstech]

Snowboy said:

Now your just being absurd
Your first paragraph was interesting. But ended with a loaded question.
Your following two paragraphs are just pathetic trolling.

But, to try and answer your question from the first paragraph.

Yes. I think I'm clever enough to decide if it's safe to cross a red light if an emergency vehicle wants to get past.
If I think it's safe I'll cross, if I don't I won't.
If I end up in court defending that decision then I'm willing to do that.

I consider a siren an indication from a cop to move.
I would be happy to defend my stance in court.

you consider a siren a direction from a police officer ok fair enough as many are taugh to stand down their siren if no progress can be made. However any other vehicle and not all unmarked ones are clear without police in it can not be valid for that excuse.

So a clearly marked ambulance and fire vehicle you wont move for as you dont have a polce direction to do so?

[jbsportstech]

paintman said:

Not in my force area. On driving courses all signs & lines MUST be complied with - with the exception of the 60mph or 70mph National Speed Limits on NSL roads (if a road has 60 signs then those must be complied with).
When I did my advanced test at course end the briefing by the examiner was that if you failed to comply with ANY signage then you would fail the course at that point. No 'ifs' 'ands' or 'buts'. You got exactly the same briefing for any police vehicle driving test, whether on your final drive or on one of the periodic check tests & refreshers.
Same rules during the course, all signs & lines must be complied with. Expect a bking from the instructor if you don't.
And all our training was in unmarked vehicles. No lights or sirens fitted.

ETA. And when on normal duty if you are going to a job and trigger a speed camera or traffic light camera expect an enquiry - complete with photos - to arrive requiring you to explain why you failed to comply.

Edited by paintman on Monday 3rd March 08:59

I have seen police training vehicles giveway at red lights and there examples it on youtube.

[Snowboy]

jbsportstech said:

-snip-

So a clearly marked ambulance and fire vehicle you wont move for as you dont have a polce direction to do so?

I feel I've been quite clear about this.
If an emergency vehicle with blue lights and a siren appears to want to get past me, and I need to cross a red light to allow them to pass and I believe it's safe for me to cross, I will cross that red light.

[Johnnytheboy]

Surely the sensible thing here is for "getting out of the way of an emergency vehicle" to get you off being done for driving through a red light?

I can't imagine that the operators of red light cameras wouldn't be able to check your story (for example using the nice pic of an emergency vehicle taken two seconds later).

So if it was spelt out, clearly and unambiguously, that you would not be prosecuted for going through a red light for an emergency vehicle, this problem would be solved.

Until that happens, I won't be driving through red lights any time soon.

[Rovinghawk]

Johnnytheboy said:

Until that happens, I won't be driving through red lights any time soon.

They'll punish me for doing it, therefore I won't do it. If they don't like it they can change their rules.

[Wolfer]

I had one on Saturday, where I was coming to a traffic lighted junction with cameras I noticed after the fact.

The car at the head of the queue at the lights stopped, driver and passenger jumped out and were panicking, long story short, looks like their rear passenger had a fit, stopped breathing, Police were brilliant, managed to get to the guy, and were performing CPR until the ambulance / heli arrived. While this was happening, another few officers came and started to deal with the traffic so they could close the road.
At this point I will say, we were more concerned about the poor chap being revived than this particular traffic issue, just curious here thats all.
So a while later, the police started to deal with the traffic at the junction, and obviously lights couldn't be relied on with what was going on. They did a stellar job and got the remaining cars(including us) from the off-road and onto the main road so we could carry on with our journey.

At the point I was waved through, and onto the main road, the lights for us were on Red, and as I said thanks to the officer, and good luck, I noticed the cameras at the junction.

So I would guess I would get a ticket now for going through on red, is that correct?

As I say, more concerned about the chap being ok, just curious.

Cheers

[covboy]

Regarding the comment earlier in the thread about emergency vehicles turning the sirens off approaching lights – to prevent MOP jumping the lights – I had this situation yesterday. Waiting to turn right – about third in the queue on green, I heard the sirens, but couldn’t see anything before they stopped. Before I could make the turn and the lights changed sequence the sirens opened up again and an Ambulance passed across in front of us. I commented to my companion that situation was something I’d read about earlier.

Then by coincidence we saw another Ambulance on blues approaching from the opposite direction (we were still on red) as she got to the junction (outside the line of traffic) on went the noise, and the guy at the head of the queue was just about to move off, against the red when the lights changed and he was able to give the Ambulance room to proceed.

“What did you just tell me ?” was the comment from my companion.

I assume each situation is probably different and there is no “fixed” rule ?

[Mk3Spitfire]

Snowboy said:

But, I think the best answer is for you to do your thing and I'll do mine.

I'll agreed with this. If people are being prosecuted for loving over red lights to help emergency vehicles then fine, I can understand your reason. I however, when off duty, will still personally take the small risk of 3 points over the advantage of helping possibly save someone's life.
I will do it carefully and make an informed decision about what is and what is not safe.

[Mk3Spitfire]

And then I'll despair some more when certain people moan that the emergency services haven't got to their call quickly enough.

[Johnnytheboy]

Mk3Spitfire said:

If people are being prosecuted for loving over red lights to help emergency vehicles then fine, I can understand your reason. I however, when off duty, will still personally take the small risk of 3 points over the advantage of helping possibly save someone's life.
I will do it carefully and make an informed decision about what is and what is not safe.

The point is they should be able to without risk of prosecution. No one normal wants to hold up an emergency vehicle.

The law shouldn't punish doing the "right thing".

[Cat]

Would it be a fair assumption that all those on this thread who say they wouldn't pass a red light for an emergency service vehicle, even if it was safe, for fear of prosecution, also never exceed the speed limit when it's safe for the same reason? If not, why do one but not the other? If would appear a little hypocritical.

Cat

[covboy]

Cat said:

Would it be a fair assumption that all those on this thread who say they wouldn't pass a red light for an emergency service vehicle, even if it was safe, for fear of prosecution, also never exceed the speed limit when it's safe for the same reason? If not, why do one but not the other? If would appear a little hypocritical.

Cat

Whats the difference in odds of being "caught" doing one or the other ?

[Johnnytheboy]

Cat said:

Would it be a fair assumption that all those on this thread who say they wouldn't pass a red light for an emergency service vehicle, even if it was safe, for fear of prosecution, also never exceed the speed limit when it's safe for the same reason? If not, why do one but not the other? If would appear a little hypocritical.

Cat

The correct analogy would be:

Would it be a fair assumption that all those on this thread who say they wouldn't pass a red light camera for an emergency service vehicle, even if it was safe, for fear of prosecution, also never exceed the speed limit past a camera when it's safe for the same reason?

If I knew there was no chance that I was being watched on camera I probably would go through a red light for an ambulance etc.

[Rovinghawk]

Cat said:

If would appear a little hypocritical.

Is it not hypocritical to expect people to do 'the right thing' & then prosecute them for it?