Uninsured Car Question - Legality

[saaby93]

bumped again
Have you seen the print out here where theres no tax?
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

B'stard Child said:

Sorry top bump this up but

DVLA Vehicle check today said:

The vehicle details for Y735 FBW are:

Date of Liability 01 06 2012
Date of First Registration 01 03 2001
Year of Manufacture 2001
Cylinder Capacity (cc) 1598CC
CO2 Emissions 170g/Km
Fuel Type Petrol
Export Marker Not Applicable
Vehicle Status SORN Not Due
Vehicle Colour BLACK
Vehicle Type Approval M1
Vehicle Excise Duty Rate for vehicle
6 Months Rate £104.50
12 Months Rate £190.00

Sorted then - officially SORN (with a tax disc expiring end Nov 2011 in the window)

Although yours says it's SORN it doesnt say it's taxed, nor does it say it's untaxed.
They need another field on their printout

[Pontoneer]

Another possibility who just need a couple of weeks to cover the time they have two cars is to just insure the new one .

Of course , only the totally unscrupulous would exercise their statutory right to change their mind within 14 days and obtain a full refund of monies paid when they cancel the new insurance policy .

I discovered this one three or four years ago when I went to buy a car - my intention had been to phone my insurer and change the policy over there and then if I bought the car . I phoned my insurer on the Friday to confirm this would be OK , and also got confirmation they were open on the Bank Holiday Monday I was traveling down to buy the car .

Bought a return rail ticket from Glasgow down to Middlesborough ( just in case I ended up not buying it ) , the test drive , covered by the 'driving other cars ' part of my comprehensive policy went fine and I agreed to buy the car . Back at the vendors house , I tried to phone my insurer - only to get a recorded message that they were closed for the bank holiday - Grrrr.

Since I had a car magazine with me , and it had lots of adverts for car insurance , I started ringing round until I found one which was open - Carole Nash , for reference . I was able to purchase Classic Insurance , effective immediately , which enabled me to drive home legally . The very helpful chap on the phone went through all the terms and conditions - including ' I had the right to cancel within 14 days and obtain a full refund , less something like £10 admin fee ' , also saying he was sure I wouldn't do that .

Once home and my existing insurer was open , I phoned up and gave them a mouthful over being misinformed , but then transferred the existing policy with NCD , unlimited miles and business use onto the new car .

After that , I phoned Carole Nash and transferred the Classic Policy onto one of my older SORN exempt cars which was not in use - and got a refund as it was cheaper to insure . I felt morally obliged to give them some business since they had helped me out ( and had told the guy I would do this when buying the policy ) but could have just cancelled and taken a refund .

No doubt this loophole will be exploited by many

[fwaggie]

B'stard Child said:

Everyday is a school day for me too - I'll stop learning when I'm dead

DVLA make stuff simple - I guess they think it is

B'Stard Child,

So if I'm correct the only thing we don't know is what happens if the vehicle is sold?

How about, in the interests of science, I "buy" it off you and we see what happens? The number of owners would go up by 2 (one me, and one you again when you re-register it) but nothing else need happen for us to test this.

[saaby93]

fwaggie said:

B'Stard Child,

So if I'm correct the only thing we don't know is what happens if the vehicle is sold?

How about, in the interests of science, I "buy" it off you and we see what happens? The number of owners would go up by 2 (one me, and one you again when you re-register it) but nothing else need happen for us to test this.

We know it will be automatically unSORNed

[saaby93]

Where's Noger
http://www.sorninsurance.co.uk/#/faqs/4547896937
In the FAQs this insurance says you dont need to SORN but gives fire and theft cover. Surely it would need to give RTA or TP cover to obviate SORN?

[marshalla]

saaby93 said:

Where's Noger
http://www.sorninsurance.co.uk/#/faqs/4547896937
In the FAQs this insurance says you dont need to SORN but gives fire and theft cover. Surely it would need to give RTA or TP cover to obviate SORN?

Policy FAQ said:

Does my vehicle have to be declared as SORN (Statutory Off Road Notice)?
No. In addition to registered bikes, we also cover unregistered bikes.

I read that as stating that cover is applicable for bikes which were taken off road prior to SORN coming into force, or which have never been registered for road use, not that you don't have to declare SORN now.

[Noger]

saaby93 said:

Where's Noger
http://www.sorninsurance.co.uk/#/faqs/4547896937
In the FAQs this insurance says you dont need to SORN but gives fire and theft cover. Surely it would need to give RTA or TP cover to obviate SORN?

Yup, that is just laid up cover.

[Noger]

Pontoneer said:

Of course , only the totally unscrupulous would exercise their statutory right to change their mind within 14 days and obtain a full refund of monies paid when they cancel the new insurance policy .

It isn't a statutory right, you may be confusing this with the Consumer Credit Act ?

Pontoneer said:

No doubt this loophole will be exploited by many

I would be careful. Firstly, if you cancel ab initio, and happened to get pinged by an ANPR camera (as MID would probably not be updated), you may well be in bother later on after you have cancelled the policy in the mean time.

Plus there is the matter the the RTA "knowingly providing false information to obtain an Insurance Certificate" if they were being really mean. Prison, maybe ?

[saaby93]

Noger said:

I would be careful. Firstly, if you cancel ab initio, and happened to get pinged by an ANPR camera (as MID would probably not be updated), you may well be in bother later on after you have cancelled the policy in the mean time.

A mate asked about this too. The policy he'd taken out didnt cover him in the way expected when he read the docs, so he phoned up and checked then cancelled and went somewhere else , all within the 14 days.
If he had been pinged during that time is the cover cancelled back to the beginning of 14 days?
He did offer to pay for the 10 days or so but the computer said no

[fwaggie]

saaby93 said:

fwaggie said:

B'Stard Child,

So if I'm correct the only thing we don't know is what happens if the vehicle is sold?

How about, in the interests of science, I "buy" it off you and we see what happens? The number of owners would go up by 2 (one me, and one you again when you re-register it) but nothing else need happen for us to test this.

We know it will be automatically unSORNed

Yes, but we don't know if the original TAX will automatically re-activate or if it has been cancelled. (even though the form and disc haven't been filled in / returned)

Only one way to find out.

[B'stard Child]

fwaggie said:

saaby93 said:

fwaggie said:

B'Stard Child,

So if I'm correct the only thing we don't know is what happens if the vehicle is sold?

How about, in the interests of science, I "buy" it off you and we see what happens? The number of owners would go up by 2 (one me, and one you again when you re-register it) but nothing else need happen for us to test this.

We know it will be automatically unSORNed

Yes, but we don't know if the original TAX will automatically re-activate or if it has been cancelled. (even though the form and disc haven't been filled in / returned)

Only one way to find out.

Yep Polo is sold 1st August we'll find out then

[fwaggie]

B'stard Child said:

Yep Polo is sold 1st August we'll find out then

[Pontoneer]

Noger said:

I would be careful. Firstly, if you cancel ab initio, and happened to get pinged by an ANPR camera (as MID would probably not be updated), you may well be in bother later on after you have cancelled the policy in the mean time.

Plus there is the matter the the RTA "knowingly providing false information to obtain an Insurance Certificate" if they were being really mean. Prison, maybe ?

The technical term may have been wrong , but the right to cancel still exists .

Regardless that you may cancel within the 14 day period , you ARE still insured up to the point of cancellation , and the insurer would be obliged to verify that if asked - after all , they were 'on risk' while the policy was in force .

At what time was 'false information provided' ?

Any information given would have been correct at the time of provision - the change of mind at a later time is permitted ( for now ) .

[Noger]

Pontoneer said:

The technical term may have been wrong , but the right to cancel still exists .

Regardless that you may cancel within the 14 day period , you ARE still insured up to the point of cancellation , and the insurer would be obliged to verify that if asked - after all , they were 'on risk' while the policy was in force .

Pontoneer said:

obtain a full refund , less something like £10 admin fee

Depends on what you mean by "full refund". Many insurers will charge you for "time on risk" (i.e. the 10 days you had the cover) as is their right.

In which case you are right, you would be on risk on the date.

However, if you are expecting all your premium back, less just the charge for setting up the policy (the £10) then you would not have had insurance at the time.

It depends on the cancellation date. Most insurers will drive this from the reason code, and may well ask for proof of insurance elsewhere ("I found another policy down the back of the sofa" type of thing) as they would be on risk until they got the cert back.

Yes, it is all a bit metaphysical. You were driving along WITH a policy. You then cancel from inception and NOW you didn't have it back then

[saaby93]

1st of August is now passed - did it stay taxed?

[B'stard Child]

saaby93 said:

1st of August is now passed - did it stay taxed?

It never not been taxed

New owner currently on holiday so as soon as I know I'll let you know if the change of ownership results in licenced or unlicenced

[B'stard Child]

B'stard Child said:

saaby93 said:

1st of August is now passed - did it stay taxed?

It never not been taxed

New owner currently on holiday so as soon as I know I'll let you know if the change of ownership results in licenced or unlicenced

Right time to come back to this thread

1 week after the paperwork was sent to Swansea a check on the vehicle enquiry revealed

Date of Liability 01 06 2012
Date of First Registration 01 03 2001
Year of Manufacture 2001
Cylinder Capacity (cc) 1598CC
CO2 Emissions 170g/Km
Fuel Type Petrol
Export Marker Not Applicable
Vehicle Status SORN Not Due
Vehicle Colour BLACK
Vehicle Type Approval M1
Vehicle Excise Duty Rate for vehicle
6 Months Rate £104.50
12 Months Rate £190.00

So still shown as SORN so I guess the Swansea paperwork shuffle takes some time (longer than a week)

Another week later

Date of Liability 01 08 2011 (seems the system only likes full months)
Date of First Registration 01 03 2001
Year of Manufacture 2001
Cylinder Capacity (cc) 1598CC
CO2 Emissions 170g/Km
Fuel Type Petrol
Export Marker Not Applicable
Vehicle Status Unlicenced
Vehicle Colour BLACK
Vehicle Type Approval M1
Vehicle Excise Duty Rate for vehicle
6 Months Rate £104.50
12 Months Rate £190.00

Quick phone call and the new owner popped down the PO and applied for some VED before the end of the month

Date of Liability 01 08 2012
Date of First Registration 01 03 2001
Year of Manufacture 2001
Cylinder Capacity (cc) 1598CC
CO2 Emissions 170g/Km
Fuel Type Petrol
Export Marker Not Applicable
Vehicle Status Licence Not Due
Vehicle Colour BLACK
Vehicle Type Approval M1
Vehicle Excise Duty Rate for vehicle
6 Months Rate £104.50
12 Months Rate £190.00

So that settles that.

Going to be a PITA for a number of reasons already discussed to comply with the legislation you need to SORN - chances are I think most people will risk it and hope the car is sold privately quickly

[saaby93]

B'stard Child said:

So that settles that.

So it came out of SORN due to new owner but was showing as untaxed even though it had a valid tax disc.
(Is that due to the DVLA computer not having separate fields for TAX and SORN)
It was only when the new owner taxed it that it showed as taxed?

Shall I give up with the other thread

Edited by saaby93 on Wednesday 14th September 18:46

[B'stard Child]

saaby93 said:

B'stard Child said:

So that settles that.

So it came out of SORN due to new owner

but was showing as untaxed even though it had a valid tax disc.(Is that due to the DVLA computer not having separate fields for TAX and SORN)

It was only when the new owner taxed it that it showed as taxed?

Shall I give up with the other thread

Yes
Yes although I think this process sets the record straight on the validity of the disc if not surrendered
Yes

Dunno about the last question

[saaby93]

B'stard Child said:

Yes although I think this process sets the record straight on the validity of the disc if not surrendered

That's what we don't know
The disc may be valid but not DVLA's computer
(BTW There's no problem with buying a new disc even though there's another in place as we saw in earlier thread about buying a 2nd hand car)