POLICE...... False evidence
Discussion
In Gary's (streetcop's) defence, I would ask, have you all misinterpreted his comment? Gary and I got off on the wrong foot a few months ago, but after a few exchanges via email 'off site' we are kind of friends... however that doesn't mean I agree with everything he says. I did however read his comment wishing evolution666 "Best of luck" as genuine, but with a realistic view that he's up against it if the BiB are out to get him - perhaps including a laughing smilie was a misjudgement on Gary's part.
That said, I have been on the receiving end of police harassment myself in the past. When I was in my late teens and embarking on a motor racing career, and getting regular publicity in the local press, most of the local BiB were very supportive, even when I took a few liberties with my road driving... but there was one particular guy who was out to get me. I also played 'wing' for a local rugby club, and every Tuesday and Thursday evening, after training, I would call at the pub on my way home and have a couple of pints; and without fail, for weeks and weeks, this same copper would be waiting for me outside the pub and would follow me for several miles, then he would stop and 'bag' me... I was never over the limit much to his disgust and disappointment though. I don't know whether it was jealousy or what. Eventually I lost it with him. I didn't make a complaint, we live in a relatively small town and it wasn't too difficult to find out where he lived... a visit to his front door when he was off duty one evening was enough to put an end to the harassment!
I also know of two other cases involving people I have known well, one was a business partner I once had. He and his mate had gone out to a club one night and had 'moved in' on a couple of girls some other guys had their eyes on... later, when they left the club, four guys followed them into the street and chased them... my freinds jumped in their car and drove off quickly, passing the four guys quite closely as they made their getaway...
later the following day, my friend (the business partner, who was the driver) was arrested for... get this(!)...
Attempted Murder! Seriously, I kid you not! And guess who the arresting officer was? Yep, one of the four guys from the club the night before... it seems all four of them were off duty BiB's
They pursued the case for several months and eventually it reached Crown Court, where the Judge thrw the case out on the basis that if it was a genuine case of Attempted Murder, why hadn't they reported to to police on duty at the time instead of waiting 12 hours until they themselves were on duty... apparently the Judge said it was a clear case of a personal vendetta and he would not allow it in his court!
Another guy I knew of, was getting harrassed (again this was a long time ago) to the extent that it was affecting his health, and again it was down to one particular BiB. He was in a pub one night, and was near to tears over it. A guy in the pub asked what was wrong and was told the story. He asked who the copper was and was given his name. I assume it was coincidence, but a few days later the same copper was found seriously injured, battered with a piece of angle iron that had been sharpened with a grinder if my memory serves me correctly. I believe his policing career was over from that point.
While I don't condone such actions, it shows I think, that some people will only take so much from crap the arsehole element of the police.
That said, I have been on the receiving end of police harassment myself in the past. When I was in my late teens and embarking on a motor racing career, and getting regular publicity in the local press, most of the local BiB were very supportive, even when I took a few liberties with my road driving... but there was one particular guy who was out to get me. I also played 'wing' for a local rugby club, and every Tuesday and Thursday evening, after training, I would call at the pub on my way home and have a couple of pints; and without fail, for weeks and weeks, this same copper would be waiting for me outside the pub and would follow me for several miles, then he would stop and 'bag' me... I was never over the limit much to his disgust and disappointment though. I don't know whether it was jealousy or what. Eventually I lost it with him. I didn't make a complaint, we live in a relatively small town and it wasn't too difficult to find out where he lived... a visit to his front door when he was off duty one evening was enough to put an end to the harassment!
I also know of two other cases involving people I have known well, one was a business partner I once had. He and his mate had gone out to a club one night and had 'moved in' on a couple of girls some other guys had their eyes on... later, when they left the club, four guys followed them into the street and chased them... my freinds jumped in their car and drove off quickly, passing the four guys quite closely as they made their getaway...
later the following day, my friend (the business partner, who was the driver) was arrested for... get this(!)...
Attempted Murder! Seriously, I kid you not! And guess who the arresting officer was? Yep, one of the four guys from the club the night before... it seems all four of them were off duty BiB's
They pursued the case for several months and eventually it reached Crown Court, where the Judge thrw the case out on the basis that if it was a genuine case of Attempted Murder, why hadn't they reported to to police on duty at the time instead of waiting 12 hours until they themselves were on duty... apparently the Judge said it was a clear case of a personal vendetta and he would not allow it in his court!
Another guy I knew of, was getting harrassed (again this was a long time ago) to the extent that it was affecting his health, and again it was down to one particular BiB. He was in a pub one night, and was near to tears over it. A guy in the pub asked what was wrong and was told the story. He asked who the copper was and was given his name. I assume it was coincidence, but a few days later the same copper was found seriously injured, battered with a piece of angle iron that had been sharpened with a grinder if my memory serves me correctly. I believe his policing career was over from that point.
While I don't condone such actions, it shows I think, that some people will only take so much from crap the arsehole element of the police.
As has been said there are two sides to the story but in this case Evo is asking for advice not judgement.
However I'll say a few things anyway. I can't believe that on a website called Pistonheads people are questioning whether a FWD car can wheel spin over 60 metres. FFS people can run 100 metres in about 10 seconds so I'm sure a lightweight Rallye could spin for more than 10 seconds and certainly over 60 metres with ease.
Also when spinning in the wet it doesn't take long (if the wheels are spinning fast enough) for tyres to shift the water and make contact with the tarmac.
My brother in law had a similar problem to Evo when he was about 20. He was driving a brand new Calibra SE8 at the time and would get pulled over every time he went through the local town. However in the police's defence he would go through said town at strange times and would also park up in strange places (end of dark roads to eat takeaway in the driveway of the local prison - just some to stop out of the way). He'd also generally have a car full of people - young 20's people.
Now he's quite a cheeky chap and as he was never in any rush to get anywhere didn't mind too much. They used to occasionally empty everything out of his car and do a search which he found entertaining because after the first few times he decided to fill his boot with dirty sweaty gym kit and worn pants and stuff - he found it funny watching them go through it all.
He also invented himself a game which he called 'Chase HQ' - taken from the computer game obviously' - when he saw the police going the other way he knew 99% of the time they would turn, follow and pull him over. So he'd (with his friends) deliberately drive past them in the opposite direction and then floor it and I mean floor it (this is a small town so Ford Focus Diesels etc.) and get a good distance from them, he'd then either wait down the road for them and laugh at the speed they were travelling at when they try and stop or if he'd made enough distance he'd just bugger off completely.
He even once heard over their radio the control room suggest they search his car because it's marked on their system as suspicious. And that was when he decided enough was enough and wrote to the CC explaining that he wasn't a criminal and that on all of the occasions he'd been pulled they'd found nothing - He never got pulled again.
So my guess is Evo being of the same age, hangs around in his car a lot and whilst to him he is doing nothing wrong to the police he is acting suspiciously. I'm also guessing there might be a bit of attitude (not surprising after 42 producers) but it won't help.
As for the coppers evidence - well as before two sides.
In Streets defence, I think the "coppers stick together" "there's no smoke without fire" mode kicked it and his humour perhaps jumped the gun slightly.
However I'll say a few things anyway. I can't believe that on a website called Pistonheads people are questioning whether a FWD car can wheel spin over 60 metres. FFS people can run 100 metres in about 10 seconds so I'm sure a lightweight Rallye could spin for more than 10 seconds and certainly over 60 metres with ease.
Also when spinning in the wet it doesn't take long (if the wheels are spinning fast enough) for tyres to shift the water and make contact with the tarmac.
My brother in law had a similar problem to Evo when he was about 20. He was driving a brand new Calibra SE8 at the time and would get pulled over every time he went through the local town. However in the police's defence he would go through said town at strange times and would also park up in strange places (end of dark roads to eat takeaway in the driveway of the local prison - just some to stop out of the way). He'd also generally have a car full of people - young 20's people.
Now he's quite a cheeky chap and as he was never in any rush to get anywhere didn't mind too much. They used to occasionally empty everything out of his car and do a search which he found entertaining because after the first few times he decided to fill his boot with dirty sweaty gym kit and worn pants and stuff - he found it funny watching them go through it all.
He also invented himself a game which he called 'Chase HQ' - taken from the computer game obviously' - when he saw the police going the other way he knew 99% of the time they would turn, follow and pull him over. So he'd (with his friends) deliberately drive past them in the opposite direction and then floor it and I mean floor it (this is a small town so Ford Focus Diesels etc.) and get a good distance from them, he'd then either wait down the road for them and laugh at the speed they were travelling at when they try and stop or if he'd made enough distance he'd just bugger off completely.
He even once heard over their radio the control room suggest they search his car because it's marked on their system as suspicious. And that was when he decided enough was enough and wrote to the CC explaining that he wasn't a criminal and that on all of the occasions he'd been pulled they'd found nothing - He never got pulled again.
So my guess is Evo being of the same age, hangs around in his car a lot and whilst to him he is doing nothing wrong to the police he is acting suspiciously. I'm also guessing there might be a bit of attitude (not surprising after 42 producers) but it won't help.
As for the coppers evidence - well as before two sides.
In Streets defence, I think the "coppers stick together" "there's no smoke without fire" mode kicked it and his humour perhaps jumped the gun slightly.
This doesnt sound good for the BiB's
We have of course only got 666's view
and my first thought re him is dont deliberatley pi55 off the local
s as they have memories longer than elephants 
referring to the lane inc - why not do what is asked?
If they have dragged you from the car then there is a technical "assault"
They cannot "assault" you unless necessary to effect the arrest. There is no power of arrest for due care.
Youve maybe a case here for formal complaint to the C+PS dept at HQ
As for the door - wind or not all you want is them to pay - so complain and agree it may have been the wind - either way they are responsible.
The future unfortunately doesnt look bright though
Why do you have 42 producers? - I know loads of pHers with none!
The name evo666 does suggest a rather "wicked" driving sense coupled together with the car I would lay money on you spending too much time in the town centre
Thats where the producers usually get hammered - to prevent car nuisance.
Anyway thats me speculating
Back to the job in hand
You may have a case. Get writing and see what happens.
In the meantime - stay away from them and take it easy. Soemthing has got to break this viscious circle youre in
We have of course only got 666's view
and my first thought re him is dont deliberatley pi55 off the local
s as they have memories longer than elephants referring to the lane inc - why not do what is asked?
If they have dragged you from the car then there is a technical "assault"
They cannot "assault" you unless necessary to effect the arrest. There is no power of arrest for due care.
Youve maybe a case here for formal complaint to the C+PS dept at HQ
As for the door - wind or not all you want is them to pay - so complain and agree it may have been the wind - either way they are responsible.
The future unfortunately doesnt look bright though
Why do you have 42 producers? - I know loads of pHers with none!
The name evo666 does suggest a rather "wicked" driving sense coupled together with the car I would lay money on you spending too much time in the town centre
Thats where the producers usually get hammered - to prevent car nuisance.
Anyway thats me speculating
Back to the job in hand
You may have a case. Get writing and see what happens.
In the meantime - stay away from them and take it easy. Soemthing has got to break this viscious circle youre in
gemini said:
.......my first thought re him is dont deliberatley pi55 off the local
Sorry but the job of being a copper is too important to be used as a means to settle personal grudges.
Regrdless of the validity of Evo666's particular case, this kind of small scale conspiracy and corruption needs to be weeded out at all costs.
Why? Because this, more than probably anything else, is what will turn an otherwise police-respecting member of the public into a paranoid police-hating member of the public.
gemini said:
Why do you have 42 producers? - I know loads of pHers with none!
The name evo666 does suggest a rather "wicked" driving sense coupled together with the car I would lay money on you spending too much time in the town centre
In the meantime - stay away from them and take it easy. Soemthing has got to break this viscious circle youre in
Again back to my earlier answer : as long as we are legally doing so, we should be able to drive what the hell we want, where we want and when we want !
In my case too, was town centre, what’s wrong with that ? Even got escorted out by two cars and told not to come back ?
gemini said:
That’s where the producers usually get hammered - to prevent car nuisance.
Since when has "being a nuisance" been a crime, so what if you drive round the town centre, no laws are being broken. I'm not an out & out civil liberties campaigner as I agree with some and not with others, but to be hounded because of what and where you drive (legally) is contemptible.
Re: Sorry but the job of being a copper is too important to be used as a means to settle personal grudges.
Regrdless of the validity of Evo666's particular case, this kind of small scale conspiracy and corruption needs to be weeded out at all costs.
Why? Because this, more than probably anything else, is what will turn an otherwise police-respecting member of the public into a paranoid police-hating member of the public.
DAMN RIGHT
Have to disagree - there are laws being broken by driving round and round the town and you can have your car confiscated
Its not a crime youre right!
Look it up!
As for conspiracy then agreed - find it and kick it out but we only have one mans writing here - his view -lets see what happens before we convict? on both sides.
You cannot drive where when and how you want - reasobale yes
Its not a crime youre right!
Look it up!
As for conspiracy then agreed - find it and kick it out but we only have one mans writing here - his view -lets see what happens before we convict? on both sides.
You cannot drive where when and how you want - reasobale yes
Pies said:
Im not sure there is anything to say which your lawyer hasn't probably already told you.
But i would try to get the fact of the amount of previous read out in court.
42 producers is taking the pi55
If what you say has happened was exactly as you have told it, then you should pursue it to the end. Do not let it drop.
If on the other hand there is a little more to this than meets the pages of PH, then be very careful about how you approach dealing with it! You have a lawyer, then use him/her. If they appear to be no good, find one that is capable of the job. Do not go blundering about on your own trying to prove a point because you will surely lose!
Secondly, I would start to consider asking yourself WHY?.
From the initial post you made, I detect a certain attitude which may not be helping you.
What are you doing to attract so much attention and to be dealt with in such an unprofessional way?
Could you co-operate a bit more when you are stopped?
I have 2 nephews who are in their late teens and early 20's. They drive cars which are tidy but have modifications to them although those 'mods' are not over the top. Neither of my nephews has ever had any cause to be stopped and issued any form (they are not paragons of virtue by any means!). One has recently been instigated in an RTC where it was alleged he is at fault. He denied this but dealt with it without any repurcussions from the officer dealing or his colleagues.
I would suggest that you need to re-think your approach towards being stopped and have a different policy rather than one of antagonism and indifference.
Try co-operating for a change and see where that gets you, even if you have a deep seated hatred of the people and the situations, it is far better to deal with it in a mature way than to try to prove a point.
If you must prove a point, then the place to do it is in a court room and not with any form of obstropolous behaviour at the time.
As for the mechanics of the events as they occurred, I cannot pass any opinion other than anyone else or myself on this board was not there to see for themselves!
I wish you the best of luck, I fear you may need it.
We only have one side of the story here. Some people who live in smaller towns and villages drive like prats and 'give it the big un' to the Police at every opportunity. We've all seen them, the ones with the stereo on full volume, always driving aimlessly round and round, hanging around outside McDonalds or the local clubs, even though they never go in....They then walk round with the biggest chip on their shoulder, with the Police 'harrassing' them even though they've got a hundred and one other things to be getting on with. I'm not suggesting for one moment that's what's happened here.....
ws6 said:
Since when has "being a nuisance" been a crime,
Since earlier this year in the Police reform Act!
You can have your vehicle removed for anti social behaviour after being warned about it only once!
That includes loud unecessary noise from boom boxes in the rear or from loud unecessary exhausts and squealing tyres. The Police can remove your vehicle there and then. The warning about your conduct alos lasts for some considerable time after the event (can't remember quite how long)
ws6 said:
so what if you drive round the town centre, no laws are being broken. ....... but to be hounded because of what and where you drive (legally) is contemptible.
If you become a nuicance, then I am afraid that there is. The law states so and there are powers to deal with you which may be very expensive and hugely inconvenient!
PetrolTed said:
Fair point gone, but even if he has got the wrong attitude it's no reason to be persecuted in the manner alleged.
A lot of people annoy me, I haven't got the time to persecute them all though
It comes with the territory Ted!
If he is seen as an annoyance to those with the power to do something about it, they will. Also bear in mind that he is also probably seen as an annoyance by the likes of yours and my parents!
If you could deal with all those who annoyed you or even on occasions posed a physical danger because of some of their behaviour (not saying that he has but I get a drift of what might be happening
) whilst still doing your job, would you do so?piccy mate said:
And I'll believe that when I see it !
Certainly not practised in my city.
If it hurts my ears, what's it doing to theirs? ( Boom boxes, that is )
Piccie
But it could be, and how do you know that it is not?
Usually a warning and an explanation is enough to make those it applies to modify their behaviour forthwith!!!!
Those that retort with indifference or try to prove a point end up walking or a worst riding in the back of a transit van on the way to custody on suspicion of committing a public order offence!
evolution666 said:
Just an UPDATE guys
My lawyer is calling all 9 officers to the wittness stand to be questioned over the incident...
I have been told that none of them will be allowed to read from their statements, just thier notes, so i guess its going to be hard for all of them to resight the same lie in court, one after the other....
things are starting to look up....
Thanks
Jon
A word of warning.
Two can play at that game
If you are going to use your girlfriend as a witness, make sure that she knows the score and properly!
Prosecution lawyers can be as bad if not worse than defence ones
gone said:
If you are going to use your girlfriend as a witness, make sure that she knows the score and properly!
Prosecution lawyers can be as bad if not worse than defence ones
Hi again people
Right, as for the quote above, he is calling them as i have told my lawye my version of events, that is all he hae to go on to defend me. He will question them about the truth that night, all they simply have to do is tell how the events unfolded that night, which should be easy for them, as they have to say how it was. If however they did that, there wouldnt be a case to answer...
Now there are alot of comments about driving around and "is this the whole story"
Lets get one thing clear, im not going to sit there and blow sunshine up there arse while they pull me over constantly. I do not think that im being unreasonable when i dont have a nice attitude with them ANYMORE...
Like i said earlier, i got stopped in the relitavly new Subaru, which is fair enough, there only doing there job. But these prducers are in the main, from 3 officers only.
But when you get pulled, your constantly being asked, "is this yours"
"Whos insurance is this on"
"how do you afford the insurance on this"
"you must be doing something other than engineering to fund your taste in cars"
All of the above after the 2nd time get very tedious. And yes i do get attitude with them, afterall, they have one with me thats why im constantly sat at the side of the road with the local area car with the lights going behind me. Even carrying the documents never helped, stupid excuses like "its to dark to make out the details, you will have to take them down the station son".
One other thing i wil add is that whilst this up to 4 month ago when i changed my car, AGAIN, i started taking my producers to a police station near my place of work. This happened to be out of the county, they do not like this one bit.
I have had enough of the whole thing, my confidence is the law has gone for good, trying to reason with these clowns is no longer an option... ANYONE WANT TO DISAGREE WITH ME HERE.
I dont have any motoring convictions, nor have there been any attempts at one,
This is very embarrasing to say the least.
As i first stated, there are 42 producers any onyone who is familiar with the HORT 1 will know of 4 boxes on them REASON FOR STOP check
offence
Accident
other
all but one has been ticked in the Check section, the other was for an accident outside the nightclud where someone drove into the side of my car.....
I hope this clears a few things for people, as my origional post was for advice, not a debate. Coming on here giving you only half the truth is of no use to me at all, how is that relevent to my case when there is yet more to the story. I have given my version of events and of corse there are 2 sides to every story, heres mine.......
Thanks to you all
Jon
The key point for me is the fact that he's never been charged with anything.
We can all read between the lines and assume he's a bad lad with a big exhaust and loud music, but the police have all sorts of powers to deal with that now and they've not been used against him.
If the police genuinely have a problem with Jon's behaviour, then why don't haven't they charged him previously?
We can all read between the lines and assume he's a bad lad with a big exhaust and loud music, but the police have all sorts of powers to deal with that now and they've not been used against him.
If the police genuinely have a problem with Jon's behaviour, then why don't haven't they charged him previously?
I must have misread the solicitor bit, so deleted my post.
Let's wait and see what happens. In reality, without both sides of the story we can't give judgement.
As far as us being 'clowns'. well, there we go. I cannot ascertain who you have been dealing with, but no-one has called me a clown in work, but if they did then I would have dealt with them fairly but firmly.
Lets see what happens in court, and keep us posted.
>> Edited by silverback mike on Friday 12th November 18:20
Let's wait and see what happens. In reality, without both sides of the story we can't give judgement.
As far as us being 'clowns'. well, there we go. I cannot ascertain who you have been dealing with, but no-one has called me a clown in work, but if they did then I would have dealt with them fairly but firmly.
Lets see what happens in court, and keep us posted.
>> Edited by silverback mike on Friday 12th November 18:20
Ok
I know you only have my word to go on here but try this one out
I have good clear video evidence of the 2nd stop.
In one statement, the officer that served the verbal NIP says he never touched my car door at any time, in fact
" i questioned (surname) and he was clearly adgitated, in fact i deemed his manor to be most aggressive, i stepped away from the vehicle as i feared for my saftey and that of the other officers around my so i called for more assistance"
That there is an extract from the serving PC. 5 more officers then arrived on scene to assist.
The video clearly shows this PC open my door, and pull me out of the car, his face is not clear as it was a side canera angle, but the numbers on his shoulder are clear as day.
So there is conflicting evidence between police statements and the police CCTV evidence. it also shows the officers all standing in a ring around me, very intimadating to say the least.
Does this sound like many officers who feared for thier safety, I THINK NOT.
Its these points that my lawyer i taking up with them.
The more points on the statements he can cast a doubt on, the better as far as im concerned,
Jon
I know you only have my word to go on here but try this one out
I have good clear video evidence of the 2nd stop.
In one statement, the officer that served the verbal NIP says he never touched my car door at any time, in fact
" i questioned (surname) and he was clearly adgitated, in fact i deemed his manor to be most aggressive, i stepped away from the vehicle as i feared for my saftey and that of the other officers around my so i called for more assistance"
That there is an extract from the serving PC. 5 more officers then arrived on scene to assist.
The video clearly shows this PC open my door, and pull me out of the car, his face is not clear as it was a side canera angle, but the numbers on his shoulder are clear as day.
So there is conflicting evidence between police statements and the police CCTV evidence. it also shows the officers all standing in a ring around me, very intimadating to say the least.
Does this sound like many officers who feared for thier safety, I THINK NOT.
Its these points that my lawyer i taking up with them.
The more points on the statements he can cast a doubt on, the better as far as im concerned,
Jon
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