Criminal record for wrong bus pass?
Discussion
Hi there, I'm hoping someone can help me here.
Last month I was caught on a London Bus with my mother's discounted Bus pass. Genuine mistake, but then everyone says that and quite frankly it isn't really the point. What is however is that I am being taken to a Magistrates court by TFL on the offence.
With it being a first time offense on I think this seems incredibly harsh, but I was willing to go along with pleading guilty and paying the fine... Until I noticed on one of the 'FAQ' attached forms that I'm receive a Criminal record for it!?!?!
I was told numerous times by the inspector that I simply would have to pay a fine and be done it. I'm "happy" to do that, but getting a criminal record actually seems like the end of the world to me and I want to do everything possible to avoid it.
Any advice?
P.S, the DOB on the court papers is wrong? can I ignore it on that basis?
...
I thought not
Last month I was caught on a London Bus with my mother's discounted Bus pass. Genuine mistake, but then everyone says that and quite frankly it isn't really the point. What is however is that I am being taken to a Magistrates court by TFL on the offence.
With it being a first time offense on I think this seems incredibly harsh, but I was willing to go along with pleading guilty and paying the fine... Until I noticed on one of the 'FAQ' attached forms that I'm receive a Criminal record for it!?!?!
I was told numerous times by the inspector that I simply would have to pay a fine and be done it. I'm "happy" to do that, but getting a criminal record actually seems like the end of the world to me and I want to do everything possible to avoid it.
Any advice?
P.S, the DOB on the court papers is wrong? can I ignore it on that basis?
...I thought not
If you have a bus-pass of your own that was valid at the time of the offence and it entitled you to the same discounted travel as your mum, surely producing it to TFL now or in court and explaining:
you picked up the wrong pass by mistake,
there was no intention to defraud, and
TFL have not suffered any loss,
should be an adequate defence against a criminal charge? If that is correct, all that's left is a breach of their Ts & Cs that say you should produce your pass on request and that won't be a criminal matter.
If you DON'T have a pass or it doesn't entitle you to the same discount, I reckon you are stuffed, but to avoid a criminal record I would take proper advice.
you picked up the wrong pass by mistake,
there was no intention to defraud, and
TFL have not suffered any loss,
should be an adequate defence against a criminal charge? If that is correct, all that's left is a breach of their Ts & Cs that say you should produce your pass on request and that won't be a criminal matter.
If you DON'T have a pass or it doesn't entitle you to the same discount, I reckon you are stuffed, but to avoid a criminal record I would take proper advice.
GoneAnon said:
If you have a bus-pass of your own that was valid at the time of the offence and it entitled you to the same discounted travel as your mum, surely producing it to TFL now or in court and explaining:
you picked up the wrong pass by mistake,
there was no intention to defraud, and
TFL have not suffered any loss,
should be an adequate defence against a criminal charge? If that is correct, all that's left is a breach of their Ts & Cs that say you should produce your pass on request and that won't be a criminal matter.
If you DON'T have a pass or it doesn't entitle you to the same discount, I reckon you are stuffed, but to avoid a criminal record I would take proper advice.
Thanks for the reply. you picked up the wrong pass by mistake,
there was no intention to defraud, and
TFL have not suffered any loss,
should be an adequate defence against a criminal charge? If that is correct, all that's left is a breach of their Ts & Cs that say you should produce your pass on request and that won't be a criminal matter.
If you DON'T have a pass or it doesn't entitle you to the same discount, I reckon you are stuffed, but to avoid a criminal record I would take proper advice.
Strictly speaking no, I wasn't entitled to the same discount (Job seekers) however I did have a claim for job seekers in progress (and eventually accepted) at the time. Funnily enough I was on the way to an interview for a job I subsequently got
.At the end of the day I just want to avoid the criminal record. I'm only 21, I've tried my entire life to avoid getting into trouble, now I feel as if a whole load of doors are going to be slammed shut on what I can do with my life for the sake of £1
.shep1001 said:
How is this any different to traveling on a train and either not paying the correct fare or not paying at all. You normally just get a fine if caught, happens to lots of people I guess, can't see why this is a court issue unless there is more to it. What is the charge?
'71B Using a pass issued to another person'.Is this an OAP freedom oyster card that entitles you to free travel or another type which merely gives a discount?
If it's the former then TfL do come down hard as they basically see it as out and out fraud and you can easily end up with a record.
Contact Tfl NOW and ask them if you can make an out of court settlement (which will still cost you) explaining that this is a one off,etc,etc.
I say the next bit with all due respect and am not insinuating anything but have you done this before? Oyster cards record every journey and it's possible to match journeys with CCTV (inc buses)to see if there's 'previous'.
If it's the former then TfL do come down hard as they basically see it as out and out fraud and you can easily end up with a record.
Contact Tfl NOW and ask them if you can make an out of court settlement (which will still cost you) explaining that this is a one off,etc,etc.
I say the next bit with all due respect and am not insinuating anything but have you done this before? Oyster cards record every journey and it's possible to match journeys with CCTV (inc buses)to see if there's 'previous'.
279 said:
'71B Using a pass issued to another person'.
If they deal with it like an Oyster card transgression the penalty is usually around £80 fine with costs and or prosecution. Were you offered the option to pay a fine and refused/defaulted? Can't see this ending in a prosecution unless its not the first time you have been bubbled for abusing the transport system.If it were me I would phone them and offer to settle out of court. You might also find this useful, there are elements of it that describe the decision to prosecute or not.
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/revenue-enf...
Edited by shep1001 on Wednesday 31st October 20:35
279 said:
....Strictly speaking no, I wasn't entitled to the same discount (Job seekers) however I did have a claim for job seekers in progress (and eventually accepted) at the time...
I'm not having a dig but offering a possible explanation. I think the question asked earlier was effectively did you have an equivelent pass at the time (but left it at home etc.). That may offer a possible defence of a mistake having been made.However, if no other equivelent pass exists that couldn't be a defence and the matter would have to be viewed as fare evasion or fraud (that would be making a false representation).
An application in progress doesn't mean anything for these purposes (as it is an application not an award) unless of course a pass was issued at the time of application, or at least was available to you on the day. If not, then showing any form of pass would be dishonest and render you liable to prosecution.
valiant said:
Is this an OAP freedom oyster card that entitles you to free travel or another type which merely gives a discount?
If it's the former then TfL do come down hard as they basically see it as out and out fraud and you can easily end up with a record.
Its a discounted card. I don't even know (or care) what level of discount is on it If it's the former then TfL do come down hard as they basically see it as out and out fraud and you can easily end up with a record.
valiant said:
Contact Tfl NOW and ask them if you can make an out of court settlement (which will still cost you) explaining that this is a one off,etc,etc.
I'm going to give it a crack, but from my research it seems like TFL like to ignore people when it comes to this. Even then I cannot afford to pay much money upfront... If I could do that I sodding wouldn't be on the bus... valiant said:
I say the next bit with all due respect and am not insinuating anything but have you done this before? Oyster cards record every journey and it's possible to match journeys with CCTV (inc buses)to see if there's 'previous'.
No, never. In fact I want them to check CCTV and match it to the records of travel because it is genuinely the first time I ever used it!279 said:
'71B Using a pass issued to another person'.
Its full title being - The Public Service Vehicles (Conduct of Drivers, Inspectors, Conductors and Passengers) Regulations 1990.Regulation 7 said:
(1) No passenger on a vehicle being used for the carriage of passengers at separate fares shall use any ticket which has–
(a) been altered or defaced;
(b) been issued for use by another person on terms that it is not transferable; or
(c) expired.
(a) been altered or defaced;
(b) been issued for use by another person on terms that it is not transferable; or
(c) expired.
SS2. said:
279 said:
'71B Using a pass issued to another person'.
Its full title being - The Public Service Vehicles (Conduct of Drivers, Inspectors, Conductors and Passengers) Regulations 1990.Regulation 7 said:
(1) No passenger on a vehicle being used for the carriage of passengers at separate fares shall use any ticket which has–
(a) been altered or defaced;
(b) been issued for use by another person on terms that it is not transferable; or
(c) expired.
(a) been altered or defaced;
(b) been issued for use by another person on terms that it is not transferable; or
(c) expired.
Why then am I being given a criminal record when most people get a £50 fine?
shep1001 said:
- TFL can look at the last 8wks of travel from reading the card.
How can I get them to do it though? Pled not guilty? But I am guilty of the offense and am willing to pay some form of fine, but given the mitigating circumstances I think the criminal record is entirely disproportionate for a single time (as a CCTV/history check would prove) mistake.Can anyone tell me just how serious getting this level on conviction on a record is? I assume it'd show clear as day on CRB checks? Am I stuffed if I decide I want to join the armed forces, police service or become a teacher, or emigrate?
That is what is worrying me the most. Perhaps I have a warped view of things, but the ramifications of having a 'record' have always been far more of a reason for me to stay out of trouble the just prison time. The thought that my chances of doing 'good' with my life have been dashed because of 50p or something is pretty bleak
Edited by 279 on Wednesday 31st October 20:49
Edited by 279 on Wednesday 31st October 20:49
279 said:
SS2. said:
279 said:
'71B Using a pass issued to another person'.
Its full title being - The Public Service Vehicles (Conduct of Drivers, Inspectors, Conductors and Passengers) Regulations 1990.Regulation 7 said:
(1) No passenger on a vehicle being used for the carriage of passengers at separate fares shall use any ticket which has–
(a) been altered or defaced;
(b) been issued for use by another person on terms that it is not transferable; or
(c) expired.
(a) been altered or defaced;
(b) been issued for use by another person on terms that it is not transferable; or
(c) expired.
Why then am I being given a criminal record when most people get a £50 fine?
As others have suggested, your best bet might be to approach TfL (or the prosecutor, depending how far down the line this is), explain that you have your own card, that it was a genuine mistake and hope that they show some leniency.
Edited by SS2. on Wednesday 31st October 20:54
[quote=279]
So effectively I've done nothing worse than just jumping on through the back doors?
Why then am I being given a criminal record when most people get a £50 fine?
[/quote=279]
No, from what you said it is more serious than that, you've tried to use a false document in that it was not yours so therefore not valid for the travel used. I realise you said it was a mistake but it happened (and could only be a mistake if you had a similar pass that you were entitled too at the time, if there was no similar pass then it would have to be deliberate evasion).
I don't see how you can plead not guilty as you did it. What you can do is offer mitigation to reflect matters in the best light for you.
Going through the TfL records are unlikely to help, the offence was on the day (e.g. think of speeding, going through a camera previously does not pprove anything).
So effectively I've done nothing worse than just jumping on through the back doors?
Why then am I being given a criminal record when most people get a £50 fine?
[/quote=279]
No, from what you said it is more serious than that, you've tried to use a false document in that it was not yours so therefore not valid for the travel used. I realise you said it was a mistake but it happened (and could only be a mistake if you had a similar pass that you were entitled too at the time, if there was no similar pass then it would have to be deliberate evasion).
I don't see how you can plead not guilty as you did it. What you can do is offer mitigation to reflect matters in the best light for you.
Going through the TfL records are unlikely to help, the offence was on the day (e.g. think of speeding, going through a camera previously does not pprove anything).
Edited by Dave_M on Wednesday 31st October 20:55
OP a friend of mine got done for fare dodging on trains at uni, (I helped him wrote his pleading guilty by post letter with my one A level in law (I'm an engineer by trade!).
He got a ~£100 fine but when he got his CRB check to become a teacher when he graduated it was never flagged up, he's been to America several times with no issues and is also involved in local politics so it can't be that big of a deal.
Wait for the court documents, plead guilty by post saying you're sorry (and don't use the term 'I don't care'). and chalk it down to one of life's lessons.
There are much bigger problems in the grand scheme.
Good luck
He got a ~£100 fine but when he got his CRB check to become a teacher when he graduated it was never flagged up, he's been to America several times with no issues and is also involved in local politics so it can't be that big of a deal.
Wait for the court documents, plead guilty by post saying you're sorry (and don't use the term 'I don't care'). and chalk it down to one of life's lessons.
There are much bigger problems in the grand scheme.
Good luck
279 said:
How can I get them to do it though? Pled not guilty? But I am guilty of the offense and am willing to pay some form of fine, but given the mitigating circumstances I think the criminal record is entirely disproportionate for a single time (as a CCTV/history check would prove) mistake.
Can anyone tell me just how serious getting this level on conviction on a record is? I assume it'd show clear as day on CRB checks? Am I stuffed if I decide I want to join the armed forces, police service or become a teacher, or emigrate?
That is what is worrying me the most. Perhaps I have a warped view of things, but the ramifications of having a 'record' have always been far more of a reason for me to stay out of trouble the just prison time. The thought that my chances of doing 'good' with my life have been dashed because of 50p or something is pretty bleak
Have a look at the document I put a link on an earlier post. One of the mitigating factors in the decision to prosecute or not is admitting the offence. You can admit what you did and support the assertion it was a one off by asking them to verify it by checking the travel card. Sections 8-10 are what you need to consider when formulating your plea Can anyone tell me just how serious getting this level on conviction on a record is? I assume it'd show clear as day on CRB checks? Am I stuffed if I decide I want to join the armed forces, police service or become a teacher, or emigrate?
That is what is worrying me the most. Perhaps I have a warped view of things, but the ramifications of having a 'record' have always been far more of a reason for me to stay out of trouble the just prison time. The thought that my chances of doing 'good' with my life have been dashed because of 50p or something is pretty bleak
Edited by 279 on Wednesday 31st October 20:49
Edited by 279 on Wednesday 31st October 20:49
Edited by shep1001 on Wednesday 31st October 21:01
I'd put that as 50/50 in my head. I see the taxi not noticing a police van that I assume was using blues & twos as careless, along with plods misjudgment being careless too. Seems a fair result to me.
Can't understand the family either, they wanted this to show what happened? they already know what happened.
Can't understand the family either, they wanted this to show what happened? they already know what happened.
Thanks for the reply but I just wanted to make this bit clear
). It is not something that I could have only done by being a complete absent minded fool, I just picked up an oyster card and went. Thinking about it, I think I put some credit (at the full rate) on the thing as well.
shep1001 said:
And could only be a mistake if you had a similar pass that you were entitled too at the time, if there was no similar pass then it would have to be deliberate evasion
The card was in a holder. I used it without looking at the thing once (why would I, its a blue piece of plastic ). It is not something that I could have only done by being a complete absent minded fool, I just picked up an oyster card and went. Thinking about it, I think I put some credit (at the full rate) on the thing as well.279 said:
The card was in a holder. I used it without looking at the thing once (why would I, its a blue piece of plastic ). It is not something that I could have only done by being a complete absent minded fool, I just picked up an oyster card and went. Thinking about it, I think I put some credit (at the full rate) on the thing as well.
Sorry I think that was me doing something stupid with the quotes!). It is not something that I could have only done by being a complete absent minded fool, I just picked up an oyster card and went. Thinking about it, I think I put some credit (at the full rate) on the thing as well.Ah, sorry I may have misunderstood as I'm not familiar with the system / cards / passes. As I said, if you are in a position to argue it's a genuine mistake then consider it.
However, as posted above it is not a really serious matter (I realise it is to you) and should be unlikely to have much impact on your future
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